Differences in rolling stock safety regulations in mainland Europe compared to UK

[island]

Some French short distance trains will release the doors before the train is completely stopped.

 

[jumble]

I have just been watching a YouTube video about the new European Sleeper service from Brussels to Prague, and one thing I kept noticing (particularly with the recent conflict surrounding WCRC in mind) was how many aspects of the rolling stock involved would breach regulations in the UK. Just on a quick observation, the stock had half height drop down windows in each compartment, with no window bars or locks. On several occasions in the video, passengers were seen with heads/cameras out while the train was at speed, seemingly without any interference from traincrew. The two 1950s vintage sleeping cars in the formation also appeared to have slam doors, I’m not sure if they are fitted with any form of CDL? Also accessiblity wouldn’t match our regulations - the livery did not have contrasting colours for doors, at least (judging by a walkthrough) there was no (or very little) provision for disabled passengers, certainly no level access or PIS screens etc.

There would certainly be no way stock of this type would be allowed to operate in the UK, especially on a scheduled public service, yet this train runs nightly though Belgium, The Netherlands, Germany and The Czech Republic.

I guess my question is, are continental railways too relaxed in their approach to safety/accessibility, or is this more a cultural issue surrounding personal liability?

Not Rolling Stock but this is a main line with huge double decker trains in Interlaken Switzerland
No fences at all and nothing to stop one roaming about the tracks

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[Cloud Strife]

Some French short distance trains will release the doors before the train is completely stopped.

One thing that is still common on some of the more wrecked EN57 EMUs belonging to PolRegio is that the doors will simply be jammed open in summer.

 

[Wandering Pom]

Not Rolling Stock but this is a main line with huge double decker trains in Interlaken Switzerland
No fences at all and nothing to stop one roaming about the tracks

This is typical all over continental Europe. My understanding is that, outside the British Isles, railways have no requirement to fence their lines. They might choose to do so in some cases, e.g. high speed lines, but generally there are no fences unless the adjacent landowner provides them.

 

[hacman]

NS and SBB might be good at it, but when it comes to splitting trains fast, DSB are hard to beat.

This is one of the main features of the IC3, IR4 and derivatives - Denmark used to have a lot of diverging routes and train ferries, so much work was put into getting the coupling/uncoupling process as fast and seamless as possible. The fact you can couple an electric IR4 and a diesel IC3 as if they were the same type of train is very clever too!

They're generally an excellent series of vehicles and the IC4 units that came after are such a step backwards given how far ahead of their time these were.

 

[duesselmartin]

A friend from Australia was on Bernina Express recently. He politely warned another group that some were protruding too far out of the carriage. They ignored him.

in that case a bang against the head might be a lesson
but to be honest, I never heard of a fatality.

 

[eldomtom2]

Some French short distance trains will release the doors before the train is completely stopped.

I believe this was (at least until recently) also the case in Germany - admittedly my only source for this is a German train simulator penalising you if you don't do it, but considering that train simulator is Zusi 3, which is used to train actual drivers...

 

[Bikeman78]

Does any Belgian stock have selective door opening? Years ago I did a P train to Quevy formed of M4 stock. At least one of the stations beyond Mons had a short platform. There was a short announcement to that effect but nothing to stop people opening the doors at the back of the train. I assume that is still the case now.

On recent trips I have heard announcements at Brussels that people going to X/Y/Z must not travel in the rear coaches. I expect this is for short platforms.

 

[nwales58]

Some French short distance trains will release the doors before the train is completely stopped.

Speed-based lock/release was normal for most of my travelling life. Probably was a UIC standard for international coaches as it needed no control wires. Doors closing at about 3 km/h was much safer than before

 

[RailWonderer]

Generally speaking with less safety aids people are trusted to be (and normally are) a lot more alert. The UK mindset turns more people into sleepwalkers with signposts, fences etc everywhere. The railway doesn’t need to be proofed like a bouncy castle for people in a different culture who are responsible and know not to stick their heads out of windows. Even signs saying ‘do not lean out of windows’ are reasonable.

I’m not saying this way is better but some of it is about personal responsibility which they seem to take more seriously in Europe than here.

 

[yorksrob]

This is one of the main features of the IC3, IR4 and derivatives - Denmark used to have a lot of diverging routes and train ferries, so much work was put into getting the coupling/uncoupling process as fast and seamless as possible. The fact you can couple an electric IR4 and a diesel IC3 as if they were the same type of train is very clever too!

They're generally an excellent series of vehicles and the IC4 units that came after are such a step backwards given how far ahead of their time these were.

We had (have) an experimental 205 thumper that can operate in unison with EMU's. Shame the idea was never progressed (although the interior refurbishment had less comfortable seating).

 

[43096]

We had (have) an experimental 205 thumper that can operate in unison with EMU's. Shame the idea was never progressed (although the interior refurbishment had less comfortable seating).

Wasn’t it intended that a Class 210 could multiple with a 317?

 

[JonasB]

This is typical all over continental Europe. My understanding is that, outside the British Isles, railways have no requirement to fence their lines. They might choose to do so in some cases, e.g. high speed lines, but generally there are no fences unless the adjacent landowner provides them.

Correct. At least here in Sweden, fences are usually only seen in built up areas. And they are a pretty recent addition, ten years ago you rarely saw any kind of fences along the rail lines (apart from sound barriers). Here is what the 250 km/h Botniabanan looks like: https://maps.app.goo.gl/PJ4JiLgVP6HtFYt47

 

[StephenHunter]

Particularly in the case of the new European sleeper, there was clearly no issue running a new “open access” operation with such old coaches. It would be akin to someone getting hold of a few Mk1 sleepers over here and running a long distance intercity service with them in 2024.

The sleeping carriages on European Sleeper have already been modified to fit in with the new rules when they operated on previous lease arrangements. The AB30s are basically 1990s carriages due to their comprehensive rebuild.

 

[nwales58]

No central locking on the Corail TER Grand Est stock used by tens of thousands of people a day. Announcement before every station and when held at a signal saying don’t get out unless stationary at a platform.

I don’t think Germany fences all Neubaustrecke despite the sheepageddon in a tunnel entrance around 15 years ago but I could be wrong.

 

[MarcVD]

Does any Belgian stock have selective door opening? Years ago I did a P train to Quevy formed of M4 stock. At least one of the stations beyond Mons had a short platform. There was a short announcement to that effect but nothing to stop people opening the doors at the back of the train. I assume that is still the case now.

On recent trips I have heard announcements at Brussels that people going to X/Y/Z must not travel in the rear coaches. I expect this is for short platforms.

With hauled stock, doors are opened and closed by the guard. I don't believe he has any way to control what doors open, other than left or right side. On MUs, the driver opens and the guard closes. May be he has a way to open them selectively, but I've never witnessed that. In case of short platforms, an announcement is made but I have never seen any door blocked.

 

[Bikeman78]

With hauled stock, doors are opened and closed by the guard. I don't believe he has any way to control what doors open, other than left or right side. On MUs, the driver opens and the guard closes. May be he has a way to open them selectively, but I've never witnessed that. In case of short platforms, an announcement is made but I have never seen any door blocked.

Thanks. I thought so.

 

[Richard Scott]

Indeed. Do continental railways divert, delay or cancel trains for trespassers on the line, assuming there's such an offence? Trying not to stray too far from the subject.......

Yes, happened a few times when I was last in Germany and only there a couple of days; seemed to be a daily occurance.

 

[rvdborgt]

With hauled stock, doors are opened and closed by the guard. I don't believe he has any way to control what doors open, other than left or right side. On MUs, the driver opens and the guard closes. May be he has a way to open them selectively, but I've never witnessed that. In case of short platforms, an announcement is made but I have never seen any door blocked.

AFAIK, the guard can block specific doors from opening, but they have to do this in advance on these doors manually.

 

[yorksrob]

Wasn’t it intended that a Class 210 could multiple with a 317?

I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me if that was a consideration.

 

[nw1]

The process at Horsham with 377s is much more long winded.
First portion arrives, doors open.
Doors close again as second portion approaches.
Second portion stops, doors open.
Doors close again, second portion attaches.
After approx two minutes, doors open on the whole train briefly before they close again and train departs.

I reckon the doors on the front portion are typically closed for about three minutes during the process.

In the UK it was of course formerly much more efficient.

Case in point: the half-hourly Basingstoke/Alton dividers at Woking.

In some hours the train would arrive at xx11/41, front portion - Basingstoke or beyond - out at xx13/43, rear portion - Alton - out at xx15/45.
(The normal off peak pattern was usually arrive xx11/41, front portion xx13/43 and rear portion xx17/47, but only because of a conflict with the xx14/xx44 down the Portsmouth Direct. In hours when the xx14/44 ran later, i.e. after 1700, the Alton would leave at xx15/45).

Staines on Sundays appears to have been similar with the Windsor and Weybridge portions.

 

[MarcVD]

AFAIK, the guard can block specific doors from opening, but they have to do this in advance on these doors manually

Yes of course. You can always isolate a door, notably in case it malfunctions. You have to be near the door to do it, which is why it gets never done. It would be too time consuming and the guard might not even be in the correct unit to do it.
I'm sure that in older units it is not possible to do that from a central point. May be with newer units (AM96 or Desiro) it is possible but I have never seen that done.

 

[peteb]

It seems a bit bizarre that the UK almost always zealously followed EU directives on various things, H&S included, however now it is no longer part of the EU the same mindset seems to apply. Ironic really. Not that H&S should not be taken very seriously, it just seems that on the continent there seems to be either rule flouting or, as I suspect, a degree of common sense pragmatism applied to eg: opening windows on trains and fencing along the route. Maybe the UK is a nation of rule followers rather than rule breakers? Or do decision makers not trust the public to behave responsibly?

 

[Tester]

Be careful what you wish for!

In Victoria, Australia, unless things have changed recently, all passengers in the front part of an attaching movement are required to leave the train 'for safety reasons' while the attachment is made (they are permitted to leave their luggage on board).

 

[route101]

Depends where you go in Europe, head to SE Europe and it can be an eye opener!

 

[stuu]

It seems a bit bizarre that the UK almost always zealously followed EU directives on various things, H&S included, however now it is no longer part of the EU the same mindset seems to apply. Ironic really. Not that H&S should not be taken very seriously, it just seems that on the continent there seems to be either rule flouting or, as I suspect, a degree of common sense pragmatism applied to eg: opening windows on trains and fencing along the route. Maybe the UK is a nation of rule followers rather than rule breakers? Or do decision makers not trust the public to behave responsibly?

In many cases EU regulations were made even stricter when they were translated into UK law. And then the government used the excuse it was the fault of the EU

 

[Halish Railway]

European countries seem to tolerate graffiti much more, with windows often being completely covered in tags in Belgium, Germany and Italy. I'm glad that these are generally removed from service in the UK so that people can distinguish the doors from the outside and can view out of the window in case of an emergency.

Accessibility, both on the railways and wider world seems to be a much more salient issue in the UK than in other European countries. I remember in France there being very few dropped curbs onto pedestrian crossings, no ramps or lifts at stations and many trains, particularly Corail and TGV Reseau carriages having a large step up from the platform onto the train, all of which is a bit of an inconvenience when lugging around a suitcase, so I don't envy anyone in a wheelchair there.

 

[duesselmartin]

General cleanliness seems to be better in the UK compared to most European countries. As to accesability, the UK is way ahead most countries. 2 Points for the UK.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With regard to doors, it's worth noting that if the UK had adopted the RIC style folding door with its twofold safety features, blocking of the inside handle above 5km/h and autocloser, many "falling out of doors" deaths would have been avoided (and droplights would have gone away much sooner too, so quite a few people would still have had their heads attached). So it's not the UK that's always ahead on safety. There was certainly no need for the Mk3 to have slamdoors - it was just rampant conservatism, as was a lot of the later Southern slammer build.

The experimental XP64 set had doors a bit like these, but I believe they opened inwards, not outwards, and as a result tended to catch and drag, and also lacked the two noted safety features. And were dropped in the final Mk2 design. Which is pretty bad, to be honest.

General cleanliness seems to be better in the UK compared to most European countries. As to accesability, the UK is way ahead most countries. 2 Points for the UK.

This I think very much depends on the TOC. Avanti and LNER are massive on cleaning, the former certainly has roving cleaners travelling on each train. West Midlands Trains services are often full of litter, by contrast, and Merseyrail and Northern are just in a permanent state of grubbiness.

 

[peteb]

European countries seem to tolerate graffiti much more, with windows often being completely covered in tags in Belgium, Germany and Italy. I'm glad that these are generally removed from service in the UK so that people can distinguish the doors from the outside and can view out of the window in case of an emergency.

Accessibility, both on the railways and wider world seems to be a much more salient issue in the UK than in other European countries. I remember in France there being very few dropped curbs onto pedestrian crossings, no ramps or lifts at stations and many trains, particularly Corail and TGV Reseau carriages having a large step up from the platform onto the train, all of which is a bit of an inconvenience when lugging around a suitcase, so I don't envy anyone in a wheelchair there.

Having travelled widely in Europe, add Spain and Portugal to the list of graffiti "tagged" rolling stock, mainly emu and dmu, but not necessarily urban local stock. They do seem to be very slow to remove it, though at Ronda last month someone had at least cleaned it from the windows so we could see the beautiful scenery.

The high speed networks and some local commuter routes seem much more attuned to needs of travellers with disabilities (not all are physical), but yes the IC, Regional type services do tend to have massive steps up and down.