Digital Fraud Email from WMT?

[Brissle Girl]

Apologies for the confusion. The anxiety is making my brain foggy. I meant former - so at the time when I was stopped 1) my phone was dead so I was unable to show my railcard but 2) I had a railcard that was valid on that day, and 3) It was bought before the journey on the same date.

Thank you for clarifying that point. It’s very important to understand that it was bought prior to travel.

 

[moongirlblue]

For a digital railcard, they’d have the details of the transaction used to buy it.

The relevance is: their behaviour/approach is more what you might expect if the railcard produced *wasn’t* valid at the time of the journey.

I see, thanks for explaining. So considering the fact that the railcard was bought on the same day that I was reported - could this have raised their suspicions against me?

 

[Brissle Girl]

I would certainly imagine they would check the time of purchase, but provided that is clearly before the start of your journey it shouldn’t raise suspicions.

 

[moongirlblue]

Thank you for clarifying that point. It’s very important to understand that it was bought prior to travel.

Thanks.
What do you suggest I should do in this case then, please? I have already replied to the last email clarifying my situation.
I really want to avoid going to court though. Is there a way to make them re-consider a hefty fine that goes back 5 years?

 

[jeremyjh]

I see, thanks for explaining. So considering the fact that the railcard was bought on the same day that I was reported - could this have raised their suspicions against me?

It is *possible* that they have made a mistaken assumption at some point, and are treating this as if you held no railcard at the time of the journey in question, and therefore looking at it as if you’ve only acquired a railcard when challenged.

As to how best to handle that with them now, I defer to others. It’s worth tracking down what evidence of previous railcards you can find. Confirmation emails/receipts from railcard online purchases might be an avenue worth exploring with relatives.

 

[skyhigh]

It was bought before boarding. How would they be able to determine the time though? Since it was bought on the same date that I was reported?

They will easily be able to find the time the Railcard was purchased. The fact you're worried about if they'd be able to determine the time makes me wonder if you did purchase after you were asked to provide it.

Just to be clear - if you did buy the Railcard after you were asked to display it, and then you lie to them about the time of purchase, that will harm your case. If you actually did buy it before travel then you don't need to concern yourself over if they're able to find the purchase time.

 

[Brissle Girl]

They will easily be able to find the time the Railcard was purchased. The fact you're worried about if they'd be able to determine the time makes me wonder if you did purchase after you were asked to provide it.

Just to be clear - if you did buy the Railcard after you were asked to display it, and then you lie to them about the time of purchase, that will harm your case. If you actually did buy it before travel then you don't need to concern yourself over if they're able to find the purchase time.

The OP has confirmed it was purchased before travel.

 

[moongirlblue]

It is *possible* that they have made a mistaken assumption at some point, and are treating this as if you held no railcard at the time of the journey in question, and therefore looking at it as if you’ve only acquired a railcard when challenged.

As to how best to handle that with them now, I defer to others. It’s worth tracking down what evidence of previous railcards you can find. Confirmation emails/receipts from railcard online purchases might be an avenue worth exploring with relatives.

Thank you. I will keep that in mind.

The OP has confirmed it was purchased before travel.

Thank you. I appreciate you clarifying that!

 

[Brissle Girl]

It's worth noting that the "lost railcard concession" is actually enshrined in the National Rail Conditions of Travel, so worth exploring in a little more detail. Here are the relevant clauses:-

8.6 However, if you were unable to present the Railcard because you had forgotten to carry it on that particular journey or mislaid it, the Train Company concerned will refund any fare or Penalty Fare paid in accordance with Condition 10.

8.7 In order to claim such a refund, you will need to contact the customer service department of the Train Company that charged you the additional fare or Penalty Fare, providing the full details of your Railcard, together with the additional Tickets you have purchased or any Penalty Fares notices. A maximum of one such claim will be considered in any 12-month period

Now "phone died" isn't specifically covered in 8.6, but I would expect the interpretation to include it.

However, this talks about refunding any additional ticket or penalty fare incurred. Were you actually asked to pay again, and if so, did you do so, or did you refuse?

 

[ikcdab]

Email 1)

Dear ,

We have recently been handed a file relating to an incident on x/x/2023 when approached by staff carrying out their revenue duties, you were asked to show your valid ticket you offered a ticket with a railcard attached and were unable to present your railcard, therefore you would not have been eligible for the discounted rate. Further investigations into this matter have been carried out, including a review of the ticket records. It would appear, at this stage, that this may be a case of fraud. West Midlands Trains take travel fraud extremely seriously and is committed to prosecuting all cases of fare evasion to the full extent of the law. Travelling on the railway with the intent to avoid paying the full fare is an offence under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. Such an offence carries a maximum fine of £1,000 and/or three months’ imprisonment and, in either case, a criminal record. It must also be considered whether this matter amounts to a much more serious offence under the Fraud Act 2006.

At this stage we would be grateful if you would provide any evidence to support the claim that none of the above legislation has been contravened to prevent further action being contemplated.

We look forward to hearing from you.


Email 2)

Dear ,

Thank you for your response and proof of your recent Railcard Whilst investigating your case history and before we investigate further or conclude, we can see attached to you have a previous 16-25 Railcard which I’m sure you have but we will need to see proof and proof of purchase between the date range of February 2019 and December 2022 so we can adjust amounts accordingly, or if necessary.
When we ask for proof of railcard this is because it could affect your case and is done before we send you any amounts, we deem you may owe.
If you cannot provide this within the next 7 days, then the final amount may be calculated at the full cost.

Email 3)

Dear ,

If you are struggling to find your previous railcard history, you can contact the provider who will be able to assist you. If you purchased through trainline you can go onto the trainline app then onto live chat and they will be able to help, alternatively if you purchased through railcard directly, you could contact railcard themselves and they too will be able to support you in gathering your evidence.
If you cannot provide this within the next 7 days, then the final amount of any remaining unaccounted Tickets with railcards for will be calculated at the full cost.



Just shared it in the above post. Thanks.

Are you sure this is a genuine email from the railway company? The wording of email 2 is clumsy and just doesn't read right. The English is very poor indeed. Could this be a scam of some sort?

 

[Starmill]

For future reference, the correct process if you realise that you don't have the railcard available to show along with a ticket that needs it is to buy a new ticket for your journey. The new ticket will then be refunded the first time in a year you make this mistake, if you send pictures of both tickets and the railcard later.

 

[moongirlblue]

It's worth noting that the "lost railcard concession" is actually enshrined in the National Rail Conditions of Travel, so worth exploring in a little more detail. Here are the relevant clauses:-

8.6 However, if you were unable to present the Railcard because you had forgotten to carry it on that particular journey or mislaid it, the Train Company concerned will refund any fare or Penalty Fare paid in accordance with Condition 10.

8.7 In order to claim such a refund, you will need to contact the customer service department of the Train Company that charged you the additional fare or Penalty Fare, providing the full details of your Railcard, together with the additional Tickets you have purchased or any Penalty Fares notices. A maximum of one such claim will be considered in any 12-month period

Now "phone died" isn't specifically covered in 8.6, but I would expect the interpretation to include it.

However, this talks about refunding any additional ticket or penalty fare incurred. Were you actually asked to pay again, and if so, did you do so, or did you refuse?

I actually was not charged a penalty fare. I'm not sure why. When I was unable to show my railcard I told the ticket conductor I would pay full price for a new ticket, but he said that I would not need to, and that they would investigate instead. Or something along those lines, because I can't remember exactly what he said. But I do remember offering to pay. Also the emails I listed is the first time I have been contacted by WMT. I don't think I've recieved any other corresspondence about penalty fares or fines.

For future reference, the correct process if you realise that you don't have the railcard available to show along with a ticket that needs it is to buy a new ticket for your journey. The new ticket will then be refunded the first time in a year you make this mistake, if you send pictures of both tickets and the railcard later.

Noted, thanks.

Are you sure this is a genuine email from the railway company? The wording of email 2 is clumsy and just doesn't read right. The English is very poor indeed. Could this be a scam of some sort?

I wish it was a scam. It feels like a living nightmare to be honest.

 

[Brissle Girl]

When I was unable to show my railcard I told the ticket conductor I would pay full price for a new ticket, but he said that I would not need to, and that they would investigate instead.

OK, so you offered to pay for a new ticket, but the conductor declined to sell you one. Probably worth holding on to that, in case it's important. It means you couldn't go through the "forgotten railcard" approach even if you wanted to.

 

[alxndr]

If you check my earlier posts, it was not bought online. Most likely bought in the ticket office at the station. And they were plastic.

If they were plastic, that is a single credit card type card that looked like this then it would have been brought online but delivered to you by post. If you can recall who purchased the railcard(s) then they may be able to log into the railcard website and retrieve evidence, or find it on their bank statements, although that may take some digging.

If it was purchased at a ticket office then it would have been issued on card, similar to that of a standard train ticket, and looked like this. There would have been two parts to it, and you would had to provide a physical passport type photograph to be attached to one of them. In that case bank statements are probably your only hope, and that’s if they paid by card, and even then there’s no proof of what was actually purchased or for who.

The only other possibility is trawling through photographs on your phone in case you ever happen to have taken a photograph of it

 

[WesternLancer]

I actually was not charged a penalty fare. I'm not sure why. When I was unable to show my railcard I told the ticket conductor I would pay full price for a new ticket, but he said that I would not need to, and that they would investigate instead. Or something along those lines, because I can't remember exactly what he said. But I do remember offering to pay. Also the emails I listed is the first time I have been contacted by WMT. I don't think I've recieved any other corresspondence about penalty fares or fines.


Noted, thanks.


I wish it was a scam. It feels like a living nightmare to be honest.

I think your earlier response to the railway was a good start. When they reply back post their reply here so that people can advise on what to then do.

Frankly it’s completely unreasonable that following one incident of forgetting your railcard you can be accused of not having one for x previous years and required to prove you had it 5 years ago etc

I always buy my railcards at ticket offices. Usually on the day of travel to maximise duration of the card. I’d often pay cash or use a card with one transaction that included the ticket so bank statement would not even show a figure that matched railcard cost. When the railcard expires I’d usually throw it away to prevent me picking it up and using it in error. I’d contend this would be similar for many people.

 

[Towers]

OP, tell them to sod off.

They are not going to prosecute you on the basis of not being able to retrospectively produce evidence of Railcards long since expired for journeys made years ago, and they have no basis to request evidence of the existence of said Railcards at this late stage. They also aren’t going to prosecute you for the recent incident, assuming that you have indeed provided evidence that you held a valid Railcard at the time, which you say you’ve done.

The advent of digital ticketing has enabled the railway to make much further reaching enquiries into peoples’ travel history than was ever possible before. It is an increasingly standard approach in any revenue incident where apps are used to look into the passenger’s ticking purchasing history in the hope of finding something suspicious. In this case they have seen that you previously bought Railcard discounted tickets and are asking for evidence of the Railcards in the faint hope that you might admit to not having had them. I refer you back to my opening line!

 

[AdamWW]

I’d usually throw it away to prevent me picking it up and using it in error. I’d contend this would be similar for many people.

Indeed and I can just imagine someone here arguing that a passenger accidentally taking an old railcard with them was entirely at fault and deserved an enormous penalty because they should have had the sense to throw the previous one away as soon as it expired...

The relevance is: their behaviour/approach is more what you might expect if the railcard produced *wasn’t* valid at the time of the journey.

You'd think so, wouldn't you, but we've seen this behaviour before haven't we?

I.e. Thanks for showing us that you had a railcard on the occasion you were stopped and couldn't show one. However, we think that someone who forgets a railcard is likely to have been fare evading for years by purchasing railcard tickets without having one at all, so please provide evidence of all previous railcards or pay for your tickets all over again at an inflated rate. Obviously it would be very hard to prosecute you for this, but that's OK because we can still do so for the occasion that we know you weren't actually fare evading so please jump through all the hoops we insist on. While we're happy to go trawling through your purchase history to see what tickets you bought, we won't do the same to see if you had a railcard.

 

[furlong]

If they were to prosecute, I'm sure the OP will be able to rely(*) on their duties as an investigator and the rules of disclosure to reveal if the railway holds any indication that the OP previously held one. (Arguably the correspondence quoted above might already suggest a breach of some of those duties.) It wouldn't look good for the railway to prosecute someone for not having owned a railcard when its own records show that they did, would it?

(*) C.f. subpostmasters

 

[AdamWW]

If they were to prosecute, I'm sure the OP will be able to rely(*) on their duties as an investigator and the rules of disclosure to reveal if the railway holds any indication that the OP previously held one. (Arguably the correspondence quoted above might already suggest a breach of some of those duties.) It wouldn't look good for the railway to prosecute someone for not having owned a railcard when its own records show that they did, would it?

(*) C.f. subpostmasters

But they wouldn't prosecute for that would they? They'd prosecute for the single occasion of being unable to present a railcard. Although as they now know that a railcard was held and the conditions imply that one can forget a railcard once a year without penalty, this might also be viewed as a little unreasonable.

 

[Kite159]

But they wouldn't prosecute for that would they? They'd prosecute for the single occasion of being unable to present a railcard. Although as they now know that a railcard was held and the conditions imply that one can forget a railcard once a year without penalty, this might also be viewed as a little unreasonable.

Agreed there, but I wouldn't put it past the rail industry to try and prosecute, even though their own guidelines state someone can forget a railcard once a year.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Agreed there, but I wouldn't put it past the rail industry to try and prosecute, even though their own guidelines state someone can forget a railcard once a year.

Not only the guidelines, but the National Conditions of Travel.

 

[DEFarnes]

Are you sure this is a genuine email from the railway company? The wording of email 2 is clumsy and just doesn't read right. The English is very poor indeed. Could this be a scam of some sort?

I am doubting scam because alot of companies allow emails to go out with clumsy writing and confusing English.

 

[Fermiboson]

Which retailer did you buy a railcard from? They will be able to hold records.

If you bought online, or using a card, you can request transaction records or check your email.

Otherwise, there is not a lot more you can do other than telling them to sod off. And if they do choose to make life difficult for you, you may consider your MP and the media. More and more attention is being garnered towards unscrupulous prosecution practices by TOCs and people will be looking at private prosecutions in general more closely.

 

[CyrusWuff]

If they were to prosecute, I'm sure the OP will be able to rely(*) on their duties as an investigator and the rules of disclosure to reveal if the railway holds any indication that the OP previously held one. (Arguably the correspondence quoted above might already suggest a breach of some of those duties.) It wouldn't look good for the railway to prosecute someone for not having owned a railcard when its own records show that they did, would it?

(*) C.f. subpostmasters

Though if previous Railcards were purchased from a Ticket Office, it's reliant on the application form being completed accurately and sent to RDG's data processing contractor for entry into the relevant databse.

Depending on the Ticket Issuing System being used it should be possible to locate the original sale too, if you know what day, roughly what time, and where it was purchased.

 

[Haywain]

Though if previous Railcards were purchased from a Ticket Office, it's reliant on the application form being completed accurately and sent to RDG's data processing contractor for entry into the relevant databse.

Depending on the Ticket Issuing System being used it should be possible to locate the original sale too, if you know what day, roughly what time, and where it was purchased.

We have already established that the railcards were bought online.

 

[moongirlblue2]

Here is the reply I received:

Thank you for your response and full cooperation. When you was stopped on the day not being able to produce a railcard it is reported to us to do a further investigation, upon said investigation as you had applied the railcard may times we investigate to make sure you actually had one to cover your journey’s, as you may appreciate we have many investigations where people are not honest but our information is unbiased and we treat all cases the same to conclusion. Evidence you could provide could be emails from the railcard when you purchased them or a bank statement with your railcard purchase details. we had hoped to resolve this with you and as previously stated If you cannot provide this within the next 7 days, we have added an extra 5 days to the last deadline, then the final amount will be calculated at the full cost.

And my reply to their response:

Thank you for your explanation and for extending the deadline. I appreciate that. I understand that this a standard procedure on your part, and I am willing to comply with gathering evidence. Since your last email, I have asked the relevant family members to go through bank statements, and contact Railcard. I will notify you if I find any relevant information as soon as possible. However, there are a few points I would like clarification on please. As requested in my previous email, I would like to know why showing my current railcard (valid for the day I was reported) is not enough evidence to pause the investigation against me? Secondly, I’m aware of a rule (as listed on the National Rail website) that allows passengers to forget their railcard once per year. While I realize that my phone being discharged is not entirely the same as forgetting my railcard, I feel there is a sufficient link that makes it relevant to my case. As I understand that not showing my railcard when asked is against your company’s rules, I would be happy to amend my mistake. I take full responsibility for not ensuring that my phone was charged for the journey, and I am willing to rectify this mistake by paying a fine. However, I feel that charging me for previous trips dating back to 2019, with no indication of wrongdoing (as far as I’m aware) is not an entirely proportionate response. I forgot to mention this important fact in the previous emails, but I offered to pay the full amount of my ticket when I was unable to show my railcard on x/x/23 (due to my phone being discharged). The train conductor did not give me the chance to do this, however. Could you please tell me why this was so? Notwithstanding the above points, I am currently trying to gather any evidence that supports my case. As mentioned, I will get in touch promptly if I find any evidence that helps my case.

What do you think?

 

[Bletchleyite]

We have already established that the railcards were bought online.

In that case simply logging onto railcard.co.uk (assuming that's where it's from) and it'll show the entire purchase history. I just checked mine and they're shown right back to 2018 (which I think was when the Network Railcard became available online, it was booking office only before that, so if they were other Railcards it'll probably go back much further). I don't know if other retailers do plastic card ones?

The only other way bar an online retailer I can think of of getting a plastic (rather than paper) one is one of the bank account freebies if those still exist. Purchased at a station it would be cardboard.

If the OP bought it themselves then just try using the "forgotten password" link on railcard.co.uk with every email address they're likely to have used, one will work.

 

[Towers]

Here is the reply I received:

Thank you for your response and full cooperation. When you was stopped on the day not being able to produce a railcard it is reported to us to do a further investigation, upon said investigation as you had applied the railcard may times we investigate to make sure you actually had one to cover your journey’s, as you may appreciate we have many investigations where people are not honest but our information is unbiased and we treat all cases the same to conclusion. Evidence you could provide could be emails from the railcard when you purchased them or a bank statement with your railcard purchase details. we had hoped to resolve this with you and as previously stated If you cannot provide this within the next 7 days, we have added an extra 5 days to the last deadline, then the final amount will be calculated at the full cost.

And my reply to their response:

Thank you for your explanation and for extending the deadline. I appreciate that. I understand that this a standard procedure on your part, and I am willing to comply with gathering evidence. Since your last email, I have asked the relevant family members to go through bank statements, and contact Railcard. I will notify you if I find any relevant information as soon as possible. However, there are a few points I would like clarification on please. As requested in my previous email, I would like to know why showing my current railcard (valid for the day I was reported) is not enough evidence to pause the investigation against me? Secondly, I’m aware of a rule (as listed on the National Rail website) that allows passengers to forget their railcard once per year. While I realize that my phone being discharged is not entirely the same as forgetting my railcard, I feel there is a sufficient link that makes it relevant to my case. As I understand that not showing my railcard when asked is against your company’s rules, I would be happy to amend my mistake. I take full responsibility for not ensuring that my phone was charged for the journey, and I am willing to rectify this mistake by paying a fine. However, I feel that charging me for previous trips dating back to 2019, with no indication of wrongdoing (as far as I’m aware) is not an entirely proportionate response. I forgot to mention this important fact in the previous emails, but I offered to pay the full amount of my ticket when I was unable to show my railcard on x/x/23 (due to my phone being discharged). The train conductor did not give me the chance to do this, however. Could you please tell me why this was so? Notwithstanding the above points, I am currently trying to gather any evidence that supports my case. As mentioned, I will get in touch promptly if I find any evidence that helps my case.

What do you think?

If that’s the reply you received I’d have emailed back asking for evidence of their legitimacy; that grammar is appalling!

I still think you should tell them to sod off, I’m afraid! They have no legitimacy whatsoever to level any charge at you for your earlier journeys, and they’re either desperately lacking in competence or just hoping that you will incriminate yourself.

 

[WesternLancer]

Here is the reply I received:

Thank you for your response and full cooperation. When you was stopped on the day not being able to produce a railcard it is reported to us to do a further investigation, upon said investigation as you had applied the railcard may times we investigate to make sure you actually had one to cover your journey’s, as you may appreciate we have many investigations where people are not honest but our information is unbiased and we treat all cases the same to conclusion. Evidence you could provide could be emails from the railcard when you purchased them or a bank statement with your railcard purchase details. we had hoped to resolve this with you and as previously stated If you cannot provide this within the next 7 days, we have added an extra 5 days to the last deadline, then the final amount will be calculated at the full cost.

And my reply to their response:

Thank you for your explanation and for extending the deadline. I appreciate that. I understand that this a standard procedure on your part, and I am willing to comply with gathering evidence. Since your last email, I have asked the relevant family members to go through bank statements, and contact Railcard. I will notify you if I find any relevant information as soon as possible. However, there are a few points I would like clarification on please. As requested in my previous email, I would like to know why showing my current railcard (valid for the day I was reported) is not enough evidence to pause the investigation against me? Secondly, I’m aware of a rule (as listed on the National Rail website) that allows passengers to forget their railcard once per year. While I realize that my phone being discharged is not entirely the same as forgetting my railcard, I feel there is a sufficient link that makes it relevant to my case. As I understand that not showing my railcard when asked is against your company’s rules, I would be happy to amend my mistake. I take full responsibility for not ensuring that my phone was charged for the journey, and I am willing to rectify this mistake by paying a fine. However, I feel that charging me for previous trips dating back to 2019, with no indication of wrongdoing (as far as I’m aware) is not an entirely proportionate response. I forgot to mention this important fact in the previous emails, but I offered to pay the full amount of my ticket when I was unable to show my railcard on x/x/23 (due to my phone being discharged). The train conductor did not give me the chance to do this, however. Could you please tell me why this was so? Notwithstanding the above points, I am currently trying to gather any evidence that supports my case. As mentioned, I will get in touch promptly if I find any evidence that helps my case.

What do you think?

My main thought is that paragraph breaks will make it easier for the recipient to read and consider.

 

[furlong]

And my reply to their response:
...
What do you think?

Did you already send this reply? Or you asking us to comment on it first? (We would have lots of suggestions.)