Do Northern maximise use of their rolling stock?

[TUC]

I'm conscious of the number of times at different stations I see Northern Rail trains laid over for 15 minutes or more until their next service. Much is said about Northern's lack of rolling stock. Clearly timetables aren't always capable of being flexed to use all stock fully but I am still left wondering whether Northern could get more services out of their stock by cleverer design of diagrams to use them across multiple routes. What do others think?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I know it's something every TOC looks at carefully, balancing train crews (including traction and route knowledge), unit positioning, and maintenance cycles.

If I thought I could do it better I would have applied for the job!

 

[Domh245]

There may be some services that have a generous layover, but equally there are some with incredibly tight turnarounds, especially some of the electric services at Manchester Piccadilly. I suppose that it depends on a lot of things though, at places such as piccadilly, you can have a driver waiting to take a service back out once the train has arrived, but equally at some stations, the crew needs to be given a long enough turn-around for PNBs. Also worth considering that there is no point leaving a station 10 minutes earlier than it currently does, only to have it's dwell time at another station extended by 10 minutes whilst it waits for a path at a junction. Last point that I have thought of is that with the stock northern has, with the length of the routes it operates, and the seeming performance difference between different units means that a long layover time can prevent a service arriving late, and going out late. If it is timetabled to leave 15 minutes after it arrived, but it arrives 10 minutes late, then there is still a 5 minute turnaround for them to ensure they won't set off and miss their path at a junction, or block a platform etc. It's all very complicated, and the only time that you will get a major timetable re-write is when the route (or traction) is changed substantially.

 

[306024]

You bet they look carefully - big money is involved in unit hire.

As with most things getting the balance right is important. Plan a timetable with tight turnarounds all over the place and the smallest incident can rack up a fortune in performance payments. False economy.

Northern also have to thread their services through all sorts of other operators, so can end up with sub optimal turnround times through no fault of their own.

There is an awful lot involved in designing good reliable diagrams, but sometimes you have to accept you won't get everything you want.

 

[WatcherZero]

Compared to other parts of the country with half of stock only used in peak or having layby time well over an hour its one of the most intensely diagrammed fleet in the country with little to no slack or reserve.

 

[darloscott]

When you actually sit and work out the diagrams though there is considerable sit time, even to the point that units are sat around for the majority of the day. Take the 2x142 that work down from Hexham to Middlesbrough on a morning. This extra unit comes off at Middlesbrough and eventually goes ECS to Darlington having sat around for an hour. It then picks up a Darlington-Saltburn diagram at lunchtime and the unit it replaces is then sat all day with nothing to do, until it goes back to Heaton on the night.

 

[30907]

That's a strengthening unit, then, and as the evening peak tends to be more spread out, its use as a strengthener might not be justified. And adding extras to the timetable to take advantage of the spare unit would almost certainly cost money.

A better example might be the York - Blackpools, which have almost an hour turnround at one end (Blackpool now), but it's not obvious what you'd do with the time.

 

[edwin_m]

At the other end of the spectrum are the trains between Colne and Blackpool South. These have very short turnarounds at each end, and are forced to do so because the two ends of the route are long sidings that each need nearly an hour for the out and back journey from the end of double track at Rose Grove and Kirkham.

 

[323235]

I'm conscious of the number of times at different stations I see Northern Rail trains laid over for 15 minutes or more until their next service. Much is said about Northern's lack of rolling stock. Clearly timetables aren't always capable of being flexed to use all stock fully but I am still left wondering whether Northern could get more services out of their stock by cleverer design of diagrams to use them across multiple routes. What do others think?

15 minutes is in my view a reasonable layover for a rail service. Anything less (and yes there are many with services with less) and if a service develops a fault, there are any minor delays or crew get delayed, it makes it very difficult to recover the time on perhaps multiple services without cancelling trains. Northern's resources are already stretched and many of their units are quite often on the edge of developing minor faults that could cause delays.

You are guaranteed to have at least 5-6% short formed services in the peak in Greater Manchester over a reporting period, so stretch the fleet too far and in the end it causes major harm of your ability to run a service.

 

[Impey0711]

Southern's train turn around at Victoria is quick sometimes just 10 mins especially the south coast services

 

[D6975]

In BR days, turnrounds were much more generous than they are now. Partly down to the stock used. It wasn't unusual for a terminating service to have a shunt loco dropped on the back, go ecs to the carriage sidings, shunt loco run round, back to the station, train engine back on the front. Glasgow Q St used to see a lot of this. Doing away with LHCS allows for much quicker turnrounds, but at the expense of timekeeping when something goes slightly awry. Terminating short of destination is now commonplace for late running services, turning round at Newton Abbott or Newport on Paignton and Cardiff bound services is all too common - happened to me this summer, turfed off at NA and on to a pacer to Paignton because the XC HST kept cutting out. (Managed to lose over an hour between Exeter and Newton A)

 

[northwichcat]

Peak time turnarounds are quite often tighter than off-peak turnarounds. For instance, off-peak a Mid-Cheshire service arrives at Piccadilly at xx:30 and departs at xx:17. However, at peak times it doesn't work like that as there's interworking between Chester/Hazel Grove/Buxton services.

If you had a type of DMU suitable for all lines (Pacers and 153s in particular being banned from some lines) then interworking between different lines would be easier.

 

[deltic08]

If you had a type of DMU suitable for all lines (Pacers and 153s in particular being banned from some lines) then interworking between different lines would be easier.

Lucky lines. Can you please let us in on the secret of how to ban Pacers from lines?

 

[Bantamzen]

I don't think Northern do a particually bad job in utilising their stock. Sure there are a few long layovers (and some very short ones too), but for the most part they are not too bad providing of course that they have the right units available for their paths. When a Pacer has to stand in for an EMU pathed service, things can and do start to go wrong.

 

[northwichcat]

Lucky lines. Can you please let us in on the secret of how to ban Pacers from lines?

Pacers are slightly wider and taller than 150s, so a very tight tunnel/bridge/platform usually bans them.

There is also the fact that they are 75mph DMUs and some of Northern's paths don't allow use of the 75mph DMUs.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

A lot of Northern (West) services were recast as a result of the 2004 and later 2008 West Coast changes - they had no choice - so the result was an inherent inefficiency built in , were there was none (or less) before - especially in the Manchester P area. More units needed to do the same basic service patterns.....(or similar)

 

[TUC]

A lot of Northern (West) services were recast as a result of the 2004 and later 2008 West Coast changes - they had no choice - so the result was an inherent inefficiency built in , were there was none (or less) before - especially in the Manchester P area. More units needed to do the same basic service patterns.....(or similar)

That does have echos though of the trans pennine services changes last year when the headways and inter-connections (both of which link to rolling stock use) on several Northern services worsened. Again Northern's line was that they had little choice. I'm not convinced that they fight their corner as well as they might in such situations.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

I'm conscious of the number of times at different stations I see Northern Rail trains laid over for 15 minutes or more until their next service. Much is said about Northern's lack of rolling stock. Clearly timetables aren't always capable of being flexed to use all stock fully but I am still left wondering whether Northern could get more services out of their stock by cleverer design of diagrams to use them across multiple routes. What do others think?

This is something that infuriates a number of rail groups in Lincolnshire and not just with Northern but EMT as well.

If they tighten up their running and gave less stack time then they would find out that they could provide a better service using the same stock.

On the subject of rolling stock it is well known in Northern Lincolnshire that a 153 unit is pulled back with its engine running on one of the Cleethorpes - Sheffield Midland via Brigg services, for some reason Doncaster crew are not signed for the Brigg line, they could catch the first TPE service which would arrive at 0844 and then form a 0920 Cleethorpes - Sheffield Midland via Brigg service using the stock which is coming back anyway, this would lead to a better service than the first Westbound one of a 1110 departure.

 

[northernrailer]

This is something that infuriates a number of rail groups in Lincolnshire and not just with Northern but EMT as well.

If they tighten up their running and gave less stack time then they would find out that they could provide a better service using the same stock. QUOTE]

EMT have done this last year, the 1520 EMT arrival at Lincoln from Doncaster would sit in a platform for 2hrs until the 1723 Grimsby service, but now this unit forms the 1545 Newark North Gate service, which then returns and forms the 1723 Grimsby service.

I really cant think of other services that have such a long layout than that.

 

[davyp]

Every weekday 2H96 leaves Piccadilly at 09.49 for Buxton, all stations bar Dove Holes arriving at 10.47. It is formed by 3 x 150/156 only one of which returns from Buxton on the 2H07 at 11.27. The other two return from Buxton to Piccadilly at 14.29 with the one unit that arrives on the 2H92 joined as the 2H03 to Piccadilly. So Northern sends 2 x 2 car sprinters to Buxton to layover for 3 hours. Surely Stockport carriage sidings would be much cheaper (no additional fuel dragging 2 units up the long hill to Buxton and back), and probably far more convenient should a unit be required in a hurry.
Any other examples?

 

[edwin_m]

Due to the antiquated track layout and signalling at Stockport the carriage sidings there are less useful than they might be. An Up train can enter them by reversing on the viaduct and an Up departure can go straight out, but a Down train heading for the sidings has to go through the station southbound, reverse somewhere to the south (on the Up Fast I think), come back through northbound and reverse again on the viaduct. This isn't particularly easy to organise at the tail end of the morning peak when there are still many trains passing through the station.

 

[Tomnick]

This is something that infuriates a number of rail groups in Lincolnshire and not just with Northern but EMT as well.

If they tighten up their running and gave less stack time then they would find out that they could provide a better service using the same stock.

Any more specific suggestions? I'm sure they'd love to tighten up their diagrams, but (as the discussion has already shown) it's not easy to do so when their existing paths might be the only suitable ones available over a congested bit of railway, or at least they're better than the alternative options. A 15 minute turnaround is hardly inefficient when you consider the number of hourly services, probably more so on other TOCs than Northern, that have a turnaround of about an hour or slightly more at one end because the arriving service is just a little too late to form the departure in the same hour.

On the subject of rolling stock it is well known in Northern Lincolnshire that a 153 unit is pulled back with its engine running on one of the Cleethorpes - Sheffield Midland via Brigg services, for some reason Doncaster crew are not signed for the Brigg line, they could catch the first TPE service which would arrive at 0844 and then form a 0920 Cleethorpes - Sheffield Midland via Brigg service using the stock which is coming back anyway, this would lead to a better service than the first Westbound one of a 1110 departure.

...at the cost of an extra driver and an extra guard, and arranging for the whole link (not sure how they're arranged at Doncaster) to learn the route. I agree that it'd make the Saturday service as a whole slightly more useful, but would it justify that significant extra cost?

 

[Beano123]

Due to the antiquated track layout and signalling at Stockport the carriage sidings there are less useful than they might be. An Up train can enter them by reversing on the viaduct and an Up departure can go straight out, but a Down train heading for the sidings has to go through the station southbound, reverse somewhere to the south (on the Up Fast I think), come back through northbound and reverse again on the viaduct. This isn't particularly easy to organise at the tail end of the morning peak when there are still many trains passing through the station.

From the Up (Southbound) lines we have the following main ways to access Stockport Carriage Sidings (Both at the North End):-

1) Up Slow to Plat 1. Reverse and change ends behind a ground signal on the viaduct on the Down Fast line, straight into the sidings.
2) Arrive on the Up Fast (last chance to get over from the Up Slow is Heaton Norris Jnc.) and be placed into Plat 3A (North Bay). Then you can head out onto either the Down Slow or Down Fast behind ground signals and then into the sidings.

Various other moves exist but we don't tend to do them. We can shunt out the South end of the station behind ground signals to come back through on the Down Lines.

There is no direct access to the sidings from the Up lines.

From the Down Lines you can arrive on any line (Dn Goods, Dn Main, Dn Slow (P.4) or Dn Fast (P.3) and then shunt behind any of the ground signals as appropriate. The signaller preference would be to use the Goods/Main/Slow for this purpose as it requires the clearance of only one ground signal.

Any shunt involving 2 or more units should be provided with 2 drivers to facilitate as the Viaduct is a limited clearance area. Of course if a gangwayed 4 car set is provided we only need one driver but there's problems with getting the right units in the right place. I'm not sure Northern differentiate between 150/1 and /2s for diagramming purposes.

To get out of the sidings you can access the Down Slow and Down Fast Directly. To get onto the Up lines you can shunt either behind a ground signal on the Down Fast (access to Up Fast, Up Slow, Bay, Down Fast, Down Slow (P.4) or Down Slow to the ground signal just before the carriage sidings.) There is a parallel ground signal on the Down Slow which allows pretty much the same routes.

The route from the position light just ahead of the carriage sidings is to be brought back through the Down Main on a ground signal to another ground signal which will let you out onto the Up Fast at the South end of the station. (Alternative routes - Down Goods, Down Slow (P.4), Sidings.) A long winded alternative which is very rarely used is to head out onto the Denton Branch and shunt back from there.

All in all getting trains in, and out, is a bit of a faff unless you're going out straight onto the Down Lines! I hope this makes some kind of sense!