Do rail companies only deal with their trains?

[littlemiztr4in]

Hi,

I received a letter from Northern DRPU asking me to attend a PACE 1984 interview as they are looking into my ticket purchasing history.

Now to be honest I have done something stupid which I really regret and I can’t believe I’ve been so stupid. But it was on TPE trains and not Northern.

Would Northern chase after these or could it be something else?

Thinking back I have sometimes boarded Northern trains and purchased a ticket on the app but in hindsight I realise this was wrong but at the time I thought as long as I had paid the full fare then no one would say anything. I have ADHD and I’m often rushing for the train and making it just in time and because I am a regular train user it’s easy for me to go on autopilot and forget to leave myself enough time to buy a ticket before the train departs.

 

[skyhigh]

Would Northern chase after these or could it be something else?

Yes, Northern can deal with incidents they detect that involve any other company.

If you tell us more details about what you have done and upload a copy of the letter (with your personal details blocked out) we will be better able to provide advice.

 

[Watershed]

If you are interviewed under PACE, you could be at a legal disadvantage if you are prosecuted and then choose to raise a defence you didn't mention in your interview - the Court is entitled to draw an adverse inference (essentially, that you made up the defence when it came to Court).

In many ways, an interview can only be used against you. In order to safeguard your interests at such an interview, you should really have legal representation - but because it's not being conducted by the police, there is sadly no entitlement to free legal representation. You would have to pay for your own lawyer, which could be expensive.

I'm not saying you should definitely reject the invitation, but think very carefully before accepting. I am sure some of our legally qualified members will be along shortly with more advice.

 

[Titfield]

This does seem to be a somewhat unusual request by the TOC so in all probability there is more to this than just meets the eye.

Thoughts that spring to my mind are:

1) If the train has departed are you still buying a ticket from the station you boarded at (by booking an open ticket ) OR are you buying a ticket from the next station you can book from (ie short faring)?

2) Have you made significant numbers of delay repay requests or had bookings refunded?

3) Buying on train often looks like "pay when challenged" or rather when you see that there is a Travelling Ticket Inspector or Revenue Guard on the train.

4) Are you claiming a railcard discount but do not in fact have a valid railcard?

Calling someone for an interview under pace is suggestive of a high level of fare evading. It also suggests that they have suspicions but not enough evidence to move forward on.

 

[littlemiztr4in]

If you are interviewed under PACE, you could be at a legal disadvantage if you are prosecuted and then choose to raise a defence you didn't mention in your interview - the Court is entitled to draw an adverse inference (essentially, that you made up the defence when it came to Court).

In many ways, an interview can only be used against you. In order to safeguard your interests at such an interview, you should really have legal representation - but because it's not being conducted by the police, there is sadly no entitlement to free legal representation. You would have to pay for your own lawyer, which could be expensive.

I'm not saying you should definitely reject the invitation, but think very carefully before accepting. I am sure some of our legally qualified members will be along shortly with more

This does seem to be a somewhat unusual request by the TOC so in all probability there is more to this than just meets the eye.

Thoughts that spring to my mind are:

1) If the train has departed are you still buying a ticket from the station you boarded at (by booking an open ticket ) OR are you buying a ticket from the next station you can book from (ie short faring)?

2) Have you made significant numbers of delay repay requests or had bookings refunded?

3) Buying on train often looks like "pay when challenged" or rather when you see that there is a Travelling Ticket Inspector or Revenue Guard on the train.

4) Are you claiming a railcard discount but do not in fact have a valid railcard?

Calling someone for an interview under pace is suggestive of a high level of fare evading. It also suggests that they have suspicions but not enough evidence to move forward on.

There is more. Buying the ticket on the train or sometimes at the destination is the least of it. But they may see that on my purchasing history. But they will also see I have paid the full fare.

On TPE I’m ashamed to say on occasions when my ticket wasn’t checked I short fared at the destination station and processed a refund for the unused ticket.

I’ve done it more than once and because my journey is a more expensive one the total amount could be a few thousand.

Does anyone know if they may offer opportunity to avoid prosecution and settle up out of court?

 

[skyhigh]

I’ve done it more than once and because my journey is a more expensive one the total amount could be a few thousand.

If you have evaded a few thousand pounds worth of fares, including short tickets and fraudulent refunds then you should strongly consider taking professional legal advice.

 

[Brissle Girl]

If you have evaded a few thousand pounds worth of fares, including short tickets and fraudulent refunds then you should strongly consider taking professional legal advice.

Agree, especially as the amount they ask for is likely to be based on Anytime single fares for each individual journey, which could be more expensive than the fare you should have paid on the day.

 

[Titfield]

@WesternLancer has stated previously:

A couple of firms that get mentioned on this forum from people who say they have found their service helpful in expediting settlements are

Manak Solicitors

Manak Solicitors | Sevenoaks, Orpington, Gravesend and London

Manak Solicitors: Your trusted legal experts for Family Law, Immigration, Conveyancing, Wills & Probate, and Employment Law. Experience professional, bespoke services.

manaksolicitors.co.uk

Penman Sedgwick Solicitors

Fare Evasion - Penman Sedgwick

penmansedgwick.com

I have no connection with these firms nor have ever used them, but no doubt you could search the forum for examples if you want to compare any cases with your own situation.

I guess you could get quotes in case you needed their services

Yes I agree with others. When you are in the few thousand pounds territory then professional advice may be in your best interests.

 

[Haywain]

Does anyone know if they may offer opportunity to avoid prosecution and settle up out of court?

Those who engage honestly and openly with the investigating train company will usually be offered the opportunity to settle out of court.

 

[gray1404]

Where you stopped and questioned when making a journey or at the end of the journey or has this letter come totally out of the blue?

 

[Titfield]

Those who engage honestly and openly with the investigating train company will usually be offered the opportunity to settle out of court.

Yes that is very often the case but I am not sure how a TOC would view a passenger engaging in multiple types of fare evasion or breaches (short faring, paying at destination - presumably because there is a revenue block, applying for refunds when ticket used, purchasing of multiple tickets and using the short fare ticket to exit the station or to pass an inspection) on multiple occasions.

I wonder what threshold or matrix of wrong doing is set by various TOCS which then triggers court action as opposed to out of court settlement.

 

[littlemiztr4in]

There is more. Buying the ticket on the train or sometimes at the destination is the least of it. But they may see that on my purchasing history. But they will also see I have paid the full fare.

On TPE I’m ashamed to say on occasions when my ticket wasn’t checked I short fared at the destination station and processed a refund for the unused ticket.

I’ve done it more than once and because my journey is a more expensive one the total amount could be a few thousand.

Does anyone know if they may offer opportunity to avoid prosecution and settle up out of court?

If you have evaded a few thousand pounds worth of fares, including short tickets and fraudulent refunds then you should strongly consider taking professional

Where you stopped and questioned when making a journey or at the end of the journey or has this letter come totally out of the blue?

No one has spoken to me. It came out of the blue.

Those who engage honestly and openly with the investigating train company will usually be offered

Yes that is very often the case but I am not sure how a TOC would view a passenger engaging in multiple types of fare evasion or breaches (short faring, paying at destination - presumably because there is a revenue block, applying for refunds when ticket used, purchasing of multiple tickets and using the short fare ticket to exit the station or to pass an inspection) on multiple occasions.

I wonder what threshold or matrix of wrong doing is set by various TOCS which then triggers court action as opposed to out of court settlement.

For most of the occasions where I didn’t t have a ticket when I got in the train I would have paid on app on the train before the guard got to me.

This was more done out of thoughtlessness on my part but now everything I’ve ever done could now be viewed through a suspicious lense.

 

[Titfield]

No one has spoken to me. It came out of the blue.




For most of the occasions where I didn’t t have a ticket when I got in the train I would have paid on app on the train before the guard got to me.

This was more done out of thoughtlessness on my part but now everything I’ve ever done could now be viewed through a suspicious lense.

I am not sure how much further assistance we can be. Obviously you have not told us the whole story but I think it would be very unwise of you to do this on what is after all a public forum.

My considered opinion is that you should go through your transactions and meticulously prepare a list of all train journeys you have undertaken over the past xx years, the fare you have paid, whether you paid on train or in advance, whether you claimed a refund or delay repay, or if it was a short fare. I say xx years because I think you need to go back to when paying on train began or when any other wrong doing took place eg. short faring.

Once you have done that you need to consult a solicitor. By having prepared the list you can give it to them so they can see the full extent of the issues.

You need to bear in mind that Northern will want a prompt reply - it should be stated in the letter - so you cant afford to hang about as a failure to respond will almost certainly precipitate further action from Northern possibly a sjpn - single justice procedure notice.

 

[gray1404]

So this letter has come out of the blue from Northern. You have not been stopped and spoken to a member of staff. So at this point they are out "fishing" and cannot prove anything. They are inviting you to an interview so you can self incriminate yourself.

We have seen other people on the forum receive identical letters from Northern.

One final thing, have you refunded any tickets or submitted any delay repay claims?

 

[Haywain]

One final thing, have you refunded any tickets or submitted any delay repay claims?

Have you read the thread?

 

[gray1404]

Of course I've read the thread. However I'm trying to work out what's brought the OP to the attention of Northern. I note a comment about refunding for tickets on TPE.

 

[Haywain]

Of course I've read the thread. However I'm trying to work out what's brought the OP to the attention of Northern. I note a comment about refunding for tickets on TPE.

Probably using Northern as the retailer.

 

[gray1404]

Probably using Northern as the retailer.

Most likely the ticket refunds that have triggered this. Then on closer inspection their travel patterns do not look normal. But then, what is normal.

Northern may not know about the short faring and the OP does not have to incriminate themselves.

 

[Titfield]

Most likely the ticket refunds that have triggered this. Then on closer inspection their travel patterns do not look normal. But then, what is normal.

Northern may not know about the short faring and the OP does not have to incriminate themselves.

True but the fact they have requested the OP attends an interview under pace suggests that they suspect that there is sufficient wrong doing to warrant such an interview. It rather suggests to me that they wish to try and discuss more than they think could be achieved through correspondence.

The OP should not incriminate themselves but I strongly suspect there is sufficient evidence of bookings from two or more places to "work" and place of residence that they believe short faring is taking place.

 

[Watershed]

suggests that they suspect that there is sufficient wrong doing to warrant such an interview

Taken in the round, I would have said it suggests they don't have enough evidence to begin a prosecution without further evidence (incrimination) via an interview.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Taken in the round, I would have said it suggests they don't have enough evidence to begin a prosecution without further evidence (incrimination) via an interview.

We’ve had a few of these. Are we aware of any cases where someone has called their bluff, effectively said “not coming, nothing to see here” and it has been dropped?

 

[Watershed]

We’ve had a few of these. Are we aware of any cases where someone has called their bluff, effectively said “not coming, nothing to see here” and it has been dropped?

Don't think so - we usually get posts from people who are desperate to avoid a conviction.

Again, I'm not saying the OP definitely shouldn't attend, but unlike a police investigation there is no possibility of the OP being arrested if they don't attend a "voluntary" interview, so if the legal advice the OP ends up being given is not to respond to the allegations (i.e. to say "no comment"), there doesn't seem to be any benefit in attending an interview.

I would suggest the OP takes legal advice before deciding how to respond to this invitation.

 

[AlterEgo]

We’ve had a few of these. Are we aware of any cases where someone has called their bluff, effectively said “not coming, nothing to see here” and it has been dropped?

No, but equally we haven’t seen what happens when the email isn’t received/spammed/whatever and the recipient is unaware.

My feeling is that the company doesn’t have any evidence to mount a criminal case without an admission, and attending unrepresented is not in the passenger’s interests.

My belief is that if you ignore it then the matter will go away and be filed with all the other cases Northern can’t solve without people on the internet advising the recipient to incriminate themselves. I reckon they have thousands of no responses every year and so be it. Too bad for them.

 

[Haywain]

My belief is that if you ignore it then the matter will go away and be filed with all the other cases Northern can’t solve

However, for the recipient that could result in months or years of uncertainty about what might happen, and few people want that.

 

[AlterEgo]

However, for the recipient that could result in months or years of uncertainty about what might happen, and few people want that.

It’s probably not what people who end up posting here want, no.

 

[Hadders]

We regularly see train companies like Chiltern and SWR asking people to attend interviews, I think we’ve also seen it with Northern.

Northern will almost certainly offer an out of court settlement if you co-operate with them, but the OP needs to weigh up the closure that a settlement would give (assuming they do get offered one) compared to the possibility that Northern might have, or in the future obtain, sufficient evidence to prosecute.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I think the vital thing going forward is to be squeaky clean from now on. The OP is on the radar.

 

[Skymonster]

For most of the occasions where I didn’t t have a ticket when I got in the train I would have paid on app on the train before the guard got to me.

This was more done out of thoughtlessness on my part but now everything I’ve ever done could now be viewed through a suspicious lense.

You have appeared on Northern’s radar for some reason. Lets be clear, in most circumstances boarding a train without a ticket is an offence (there needs to be a working ticket machine and or ticket office at your departure station, but when its obvious you have a mobile device from which to buy a ticket but still elected not to buy before boarding won’t help). So it doesn’t matter that you paid full fare or paid before the guard got to you - just getting on without a ticket when you could have bought a ticket before will raise concerns. But, if you have done nothing wrong with Northern but are buying TPE tickets through the Northern app, and Northern has detected some potentially irregularities that could be it too. Once you’re on one TOC’s radar, it is entitled to look at your history with all TOCs and - if you attend the interview - ask questions about any. Others here have already advised on the wisdom of attending interview or not, especially if you are not legally represented. If you choose not to attend the matter could go away on the basis that Northern holds no provable evidence. But Northern might dig more. At interview Northern may have data it suspects points to ticketing malpractice and is looking to prove via confession, even if that is inadvertent or comes from a mis-understanding of railway ticketing matters on the part of the interviewee. Take it as read its investigators are likely to know more about ticketing matters than you do and if you attend are entirely at liberty to raise issues they perceive with you.

Again you are also now on Northern’s radar and whatever you decide to do it would be extremely unwise to make any errors in future.