Doncaster Sheffield Airport to reopen?

[pug1]

I am sure you meant to say "Yorkshire and the Humber"

No, I did not. It’s still referenced as Humberside to denote the industrial region on the banks of the Humber that have synergies not connected to either Yorkshire or Lincolnshire. Hence the Humberside or Humber region, whichever you prefer, is highlighted in passenger statistics rather than Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. Not just a coincidence that Humberside has an airport, not for some old county council ties but because it denotes its core catchment area of Hull, Grimsby and Scunthorpe which actually had a very similar catchment area to DSA for number of people within a 30 minute drive time.

If I was to say Humberside could have direct flights to all corners of the globe I’d be laughed off the forums, but for some reason some people, including yourself, seem to think it’s a fairly reasonable expectation of a reopened DSA.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I bet if the Lancashire Combined Authority gets a mayor they will want to reopen Blackpool.....

The difference with Blackpool is that the airport is still open for general aviation at least

 

[pug1]

The difference with Blackpool is that the airport is still open for general aviation at least

It is, they demolished the passenger terminal some time ago and repurposed the land to some college or other.

I remember when Jet2 were notified of closure. They didn’t want to leave, but at the same time the fact they only had one or two aircraft based there meant the airport were effectively paying Jet2 to fly from there. Costs of such are huge. The local leaders did a great job of managing to save it from redevelopment, and it’s one of the busier GA airports in the U.K., but actually having a passenger operation is not viable.

Similarities with DSA? Quite possibly.

 

[AlastairFraser]

It is, they demolished the passenger terminal some time ago and repurposed the land to some college or other.

I remember when Jet2 were notified of closure. They didn’t want to leave, but at the same time the fact they only had one or two aircraft based there meant the airport were effectively paying Jet2 to fly from there. Costs of such are huge. The local leaders did a great job of managing to save it from redevelopment, and it’s one of the busier GA airports in the U.K., but actually having a passenger operation is not viable.

Similarities with DSA? Quite possibly.

Blackpool at least is a destination in its own right, and it could well be the first test airport for zero emission flights to the Isle of Man (it's only around 70 miles from IOM Airport, while Liverpool is about 90 miles and Manchester about 110 miles.
A modular terminal wouldn't cost a huge amount either - when they reopened Anglesey Airport for subsidised flights to Cardiff, the prefab terminal cost about £1 million.

 

[mpthomson]

On another forum there are members who are active within the LBA Consultative Committee and one has take the time to post a detailed overview of this weeks meeting.

In it was mentioned by the LBA CEO of the progress at DSA and what impact that might bring to LBA. The short answer is not much, he emphasised how the airport lost over £170million in its 17 years of operation and that the Council had effectively promised to ringfence a huge amount of money on one asset that has a very real risk of becoming bankrupt within 5 years. He said the costs were £80million to reinstate the operation and a further £50million in subsidy to a private sector operator to run it. Not sure where he got the figure from but it’s not uncommon for industry figures to be privy to such information. He also cannot see where any growth from operators will come from. Wizz have apparently assured him they have no intention to move back to DSA if it reopens.

On the other hand, LBA are in discussions with an undisclosed US carrier to bring flights from a US city to LBA using A321 XLR equipment in 2026..

Airports have a far wider impact than merely the areas within a 20 mile radius. Their catchment areas converge and are complex in nature, and any airline in the crosshairs of a budding DSA operator will need a very convincing reason to add flights from there. It’s why meddling by local authorities tends to end badly. Exactly what they’re doing here.

Indeed, and all this at a time when some of the money could be much better used to support, as just one example, the failing Safeguarding operations in both Rotherham and Doncaster, both of which have been in special measures recently.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Indeed, and all this at a time when some of the money could be much better used to support, as just one example, the failing Safeguarding operations in both Rotherham and Doncaster, both of which have been in special measures recently.

How could ringfenced capital funding be used to fund ongoing operational costs?

 

[pug1]

How could ringfenced capital funding be used to fund ongoing operational costs?

Agreed, I completely agree with mpthompson in his sentiments but actually due to the rules on funding the money cannot be used for anything outside of its remit. I think any comparison would be for what other possible qualifying projects are being sidelined to allow for this investment in the airport? Are there any pressing local rail projects for instance, or any other areas of economic growth which would benefit from the funding?

It might be that the investment required falls below the £138million available, but I can’t see it being much less unless they manage to convince the private sector to invest, which I find unlikely at the moment.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Agreed, I completely agree with mpthompson in his sentiments but actually due to the rules on funding the money cannot be used for anything outside of its remit. I think any comparison would be for what other possible qualifying projects are being sidelined to allow for this investment in the airport? Are there any pressing local rail projects for instance, or any other areas of economic growth which would benefit from the funding?

It might be that the investment required falls below the £138million available, but I can’t see it being much less unless they manage to convince the private sector to invest, which I find unlikely at the moment.

I can't think of anything unless there's a Supertram line planned in Donny or anywhere nearby?

 

[pug1]

I can't think of anything unless there's a Supertram line planned in Donny or anywhere nearby?

To be clear, the £138million is the entire 30 year allocation of gainshare to City of Doncaster by South Yorkshire Combined Authority. That is, the amount available in tranches over a 30 year period. Thats less than £5million per year. Of that, a large percentage is to be allocated to ‘capital’ and the rest ‘revenue’. I’m not sure of the exact meaning behind the terminology, but I expect Capital is £80million over 30 years, and the council intend to borrow against this to enable the airport to reopen. The remaining £50million, should it be allocated to the airport, would be used to subsidise the airport for a predetermined period whilst assuming an operator gets the airport into a profitable state by which time they will be required to invest themselves.

That is my understanding of the situation, however as things stand we have not been given a breakdown of costs, nor do we know where the council are in their procurement/tendering process as conflicting information has arisen recently.

The LBA CEO recently stated at a consultative committee meeting that he believes they are on course to spend the entire Gainshare pot on a venture that could be bankrupt within 5 years.

This is why Oliver Coppard was careful to highlight the next stages in his announcement of the lease agreement a couple of weeks ago, particularly the bit about scrutinising the Full Business Case to ensure tax payers were getting a fair deal. Getting an investor on board is going to be tough, particularly if they are required to part with their own cash!

 

[AlastairFraser]

To be clear, the £138million is the entire 30 year allocation of gainshare to City of Doncaster by South Yorkshire Combined Authority. That is, the amount available in tranches over a 30 year period. Thats less than £5million per year. Of that, a large percentage is to be allocated to ‘capital’ and the rest ‘revenue’. I’m not sure of the exact meaning behind the terminology, but I expect Capital is £80million over 30 years, and the council intend to borrow against this to enable the airport to reopen. The remaining £50million, should it be allocated to the airport, would be used to subsidise the airport for a predetermined period whilst assuming an operator gets the airport into a profitable state by which time they will be required to invest themselves.

That is my understanding of the situation, however as things stand we have not been given a breakdown of costs, nor do we know where the council are in their procurement/tendering process as conflicting information has arisen recently.

The LBA CEO recently stated at a consultative committee meeting that he believes they are on course to spend the entire Gainshare pot on a venture that could be bankrupt within 5 years.

This is why Oliver Coppard was careful to highlight the next stages in his announcement of the lease agreement a couple of weeks ago, particularly the bit about scrutinising the Full Business Case to ensure tax payers were getting a fair deal. Getting an investor on board is going to be tough, particularly if they are required to part with their own cash!

Thanks for the detailed information on the council's plan. I'll guess we'll have to wait and see how they plan to spend the funding.

 

[mpthomson]

How could ringfenced capital funding be used to fund ongoing operational costs?

The ongoing subsidy money isn't ring-fenced....

 

[AlastairFraser]

The ongoing subsidy money isn't ring-fenced....

Which subsidy are you referring to, and how much is subsidy?

 

[mpthomson]

Which subsidy are you referring to, and how much is subsidy?

The council's own financial viability report refers to ongoing financial subsidy required in order to sustain the airport for an unspecified period. Clearly the amount wouldn't be known (on the basis that it does reopen) until it becomes clear how commercially successful (or not) it is and initial subsidy levels would need to be negotiated with a potential operator, in fact it's likely to be a very important part of negotiations.

That's just another issue with it, it's asking local council tax payers to stump up an unkown amount of money for an unknown period of time for an airport that isn't likely to be viable with or without that input.

 

[BrianW]

The council's own financial viability report refers to ongoing financial subsidy required in order to sustain the airport for an unspecified period. Clearly the amount wouldn't be known (on the basis that it does reopen) until it becomes clear how commercially successful (or not) it is and initial subsidy levels would need to be negotiated. with a potential operator, in fact it's likelt to be a very important part of negotiaions.

That's just another issue with it, it's asking local council tax payers to stump up an unkown amount of money for an unknown period of time for an airport that isn't likely to be viable without that input.

IIUC, Councillors and Officers can be held accountable/personally liable for what may be held to be reckless expenditure. The parlous financial state of several local authorities is due in large part to unwise investment in commercial enterprises for which they were ill-equipped or not well-placed in the event of unforeseen (though arguably foreseeable) adverse 'economic headwinds'. I would like to think that those involved in such decisions take full account of the costs of what may be considered vanity.

 

[pug1]

IIUC, Councillors and Officers can be held accountable/personally liable for what may be held to be reckless expenditure. The parlous financial state of several local authorities is due in large part to unwise investment in commercial enterprises for which they were ill-equipped or not well-placed in the event of unforeseen (though arguably foreseeable) adverse 'economic headwinds'. I would like to think that those involved in such decisions take full account of the costs of what may be considered vanity.

Would be nice to see, Oliver Coppard has pressed home the need to be careful with tax payers money, and that the Full Outline Business Case will be scrutinised once received. Not sure how much say Central Government have in the spending of devolved funding? I would think the case needs to be water tight given the amount they may be offering. Of course it could be that the private sector operator is keen on investing themselves, in which case it reduces the risk. Too many unanswered questions thus far. Much of this will revolve around the real estate potential and how much of it will be available to the operator to offset the operating losses.

 

[Killingworth]

Would be nice to see, Oliver Coppard has pressed home the need to be careful with tax payers money, and that the Full Outline Business Case will be scrutinised once received. Not sure how much say Central Government have in the spending of devolved funding? I would think the case needs to be water tight given the amount they may be offering. Of course it could be that the private sector operator is keen on investing themselves, in which case it reduces the risk. Too many unanswered questions thus far. Much of this will revolve around the real estate potential and how much of it will be available to the operator to offset the operating losses.

Oliver Coppard's in a difficult position in that he must know this is a financial millstone being prepared to go round his neck. Yet he knows a lot of his electorate are very attached to the idea of an airport without much understanding of what it will cost them. Add to that the sensitivity that Doncaster feels about Sheffield getting a bigger share of the financial pot.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The council's own financial viability report refers to ongoing financial subsidy required in order to sustain the airport for an unspecified period. Clearly the amount wouldn't be known (on the basis that it does reopen) until it becomes clear how commercially successful (or not) it is and initial subsidy levels would need to be negotiated with a potential operator, in fact it's likely to be a very important part of negotiations.

That's just another issue with it, it's asking local council tax payers to stump up an unkown amount of money for an unknown period of time for an airport that isn't likely to be viable with or without that input.

My question is now whether they can find alternative sources of subsidy that don't require abstraction from council budgets...

 

[mpthomson]

My question is now whether they can find alternative sources of subsidy that don't require abstraction from council budgets...

I'm not sure what that would be in truth. As this airport was never profitable previously any operator is going to be expecting the council to hold much of the commercial financial risk for it in any agreement. We'll all just have to wait and see what comes of any negotiations and hope that the council is very transparent about the financing of it in the event that an agreement is reached..

 

[Meerkat]

Oliver Coppard's in a difficult position in that he must know this is a financial millstone being prepared to go round his neck. Yet he knows a lot of his electorate are very attached to the idea of an airport without much understanding of what it will cost them. Add to that the sensitivity that Doncaster feels about Sheffield getting a bigger share of the financial pot.

Surely then he should be making clear to his electorate what the financial realities and the financial risks are?

 

[zwk500]

Surely then he should be making clear to his electorate what the financial realities and the financial risks are?

Depends if he wants to do the right thing or wants to get elected. Saying to people 'look, we're too poor to afford an airport' is likely to attract criticisms of 'doing Doncaster down' or 'lacking ambition for the region'. And if you're standing for election it tends to indicate you want to be elected first and then do the right thing later (right thing by whom is a totally separate discussion).

 

[Meerkat]

Depends if he wants to do the right thing or wants to get elected. Saying to people 'look, we're too poor to afford an airport' is likely to attract criticisms of 'doing Doncaster down' or 'lacking ambition for the region'. And if you're standing for election it tends to indicate you want to be elected first and then do the right thing later (right thing by whom is a totally separate discussion).

he can sell it as “I will not gamble with your money”. Plenty of examples of councils that speculated and are now slashing services and raising council tax.
probably help if he came up with some alternative uses for the money (see Sunak and HS2 cancellation)

 

[Killingworth]

Depends if he wants to do the right thing or wants to get elected. Saying to people 'look, we're too poor to afford an airport' is likely to attract criticisms of 'doing Doncaster down' or 'lacking ambition for the region'. And if you're standing for election it tends to indicate you want to be elected first and then do the right thing later (right thing by whom is a totally separate discussion).

He'll get elected anyway. There's no other candidate likely to get anywhere near him. His greater concern is his standing within local Labour politics. Doncaster, Rotherham and Barnsley eye anything from a Sheffield based mayor with suspicion.

 

[BrianW]

He'll get elected anyway. There's no other candidate likely to get anywhere near him. His greater concern is his standing within local Labour politics. Doncaster, Rotherham and Barnsley eye anything from a Sheffield based mayor with suspicion.

Might I suggest that that kind of attitude to neighbours, i.e Sheffield (while it might work in the football stadium) is likely to result in everyone getting nothing from the 'begging bowl'.
Cooperation, even with Leeds , Hull and Manchester, is needed- a kind of Network North?? Not Notwork! Non-Labour candidates got into parliament (last time) in Ashfield, Bassetlaw and Bolsover (not far away) as well as Don Valley and Penistone & Stocksbridge, as I'm sure you will recognise. Sadly, Labour found out it has no 'divine right' to govern and could not take votes for granted. Maybe that has changed since!

 

[Killingworth]

Might I suggest that that kind of attitude to neighbours, i.e Sheffield (while it might work in the football stadium) is likely to result in everyone getting nothing from the 'begging bowl'.
Cooperation, even with Leeds , Hull and Manchester, is needed- a kind of Network North?? Not Notwork! Non-Labour candidates got into parliament (last time) in Ashfield, Bassetlaw and Bolsover (not far away) as well as Don Valley and Penistone & Stocksbridge, as I'm sure you will recognise. Sadly, Labour found out it has no 'divine right' to govern and could not take votes for granted. Maybe that has changed since!

I've lived here for many decades and comment on what I see and hear. Non-labour candidates held Sheffield Hallam for generations, considered by Tories as their only firm foot hold in South Yorkshire until 1997. It then seemed almost safe LibDem until Nick Clegg lost to Labour in 2017. I doubt a good constituency Labour MP Olivia Blake will lose next time.

However the upshot of that is that the electorate is far less wedded to any political party than they were even 20 years ago. Big swings can happen based on short term events. We'll have to wait and see how many actually vote (that will be telling) and who for fairly soon.

I suspect that if John Prescott's rejected devolution deal for the North-East had gone ahead the jealousies between Newcastle and Sunderland would have been magnified with the addition of Middlesbrough - and Teesside Airport would have caused major conflict with Newcastle if major support were required!

 

[edwin_m]

Might I suggest that that kind of attitude to neighbours, i.e Sheffield (while it might work in the football stadium) is likely to result in everyone getting nothing from the 'begging bowl'.
Cooperation, even with Leeds , Hull and Manchester, is needed- a kind of Network North?? Not Notwork! Non-Labour candidates got into parliament (last time) in Ashfield, Bassetlaw and Bolsover (not far away) as well as Don Valley and Penistone & Stocksbridge, as I'm sure you will recognise. Sadly, Labour found out it has no 'divine right' to govern and could not take votes for granted. Maybe that has changed since!

I'd expect most or even all of the Red Wall seats to revert to Labour next time. None of what the Tories promised for the region in 2019 has worked out and Labour have gone out of their way not to upset the (stereo)typical local voters.

 

[mpthomson]

Surely then he should be making clear to his electorate what the financial realities and the financial risks are?

Neither of those are quantifiable yet in reality until negotiations with a genuinely interested and able operator are reasonably advanced. Until that point all he's got is 'should', 'could', 'maybe' type statements and generalisations, which I suspect he'll want to avoid if he can. He's unlikely to publicise the pre-closure losses either (c£17mn in 2018/19 and just over £6m 2019/20 and prior to Wizz closing operations there).

 

[BrianW]

I've lived here for many decades and comment on what I see and hear. Non-labour candidates held Sheffield Hallam for generations, considered by Tories as their only firm foot hold in South Yorkshire until 1997. It then seemed almost safe LibDem until Nick Clegg lost to Labour in 2017. I doubt a good constituency Labour MP Olivia Blake will lose next time.

However the upshot of that is that the electorate is far less wedded to any political party than they were even 20 years ago. Big swings can happen based on short term events. We'll have to wait and see how many actually vote (that will be telling) and who for fairly soon.

I suspect that if John Prescott's rejected devolution deal for the North-East had gone ahead the jealousies between Newcastle and Sunderland would have been magnified with the addition of Middlesbrough - and Teesside Airport would have caused major conflict with Newcastle if major support were required!

Indeed. I was a student,living in the Hallam constituency in the late 60s- I held a Socialist Workers' Party 'Wilson Out' placard outside City Hall when he visited! Changes in voting age, boundary changes, increases in student numbers, 'extensions of voting time' and promises helped Nick Clegg into power.

40 years of continuous Labour control of Sheffield City Council ended in 1968 IIRC and the Tories took control! It is currently under no overall control.

Neil Kinnock was a hubristic 'shoe-in' to become Prime Minster.

David Cameron was sure Remain would win the referendum.

I'd expect most or even all of the Red Wall seats to revert to Labour next time. None of what the Tories promised for the region in 2019 has worked out and Labour have gone out of their way not to upset the (stereo)typical local voters.

You may be right.

Labour to win with Tory policies? Going off-topic, but hubris in evidence at Doncaster Sheffield airport?

 

[pug1]

Neither of those are quantifiable yet in reality until negotiations with a genuinely interested and able operator are reasonably advanced. Until that point all he's got is 'should', 'could', 'maybe' type statements and generalisations, which I suspect he'll want to avoid if he can. He's unlikely to publicise the pre-closure losses either (c£17mn in 2018/19 and just over £6m 2019/20 and prior to Wizz closing operations there).

Cost on average £10.00 to the opco for every passenger that ever passed through the airport. I expect any new opco that is expected to invest anything themselves would want to know how much of the entire estate comes with the airport. Is Gateway East up for negotiation? Will desperately need non-aviation revenue sources. Like has been said, until we know what the organisational structure looks like it’s very difficult to know how it’ll go wrt the burden on the tax payer.

From the snippets that have been made public via cabinet meetings they’re definitely attacking it from a GVA pov, emphasising how much it contributes (or could) to the regional economy. This is problematic. Lots of reliance on the belief that Peel mismanaged the airport, also problematic particularly for anyone who has been privy to commercial information not yet in the public domain.

 

[SargeNpton]

Indeed. I was a student,living in the Hallam constituency in the late 60s- I held a Socialist Workers' Party 'Wilson Out' placard outside City Hall when he visited! Changes in voting age, boundary changes, increases in student numbers, 'extensions of voting time' and promises helped Nick Clegg into power.

40 years of continuous Labour control of Sheffield City Council ended in 1968 IIRC and the Tories took control! It is currently under no overall control.

That 1968 Tory win was but a brief interlude. In 1969 it was back under Labour control, and probably has been for most of the intervening years.

David Blunkett and the 1980s "Socialist Republic of South Yorkshire" springs to mind, as does Clive Betts and the financing of the 1991 World Student Games (some of the debts from which are only expected to be paid off this year).

 

[Killingworth]

That 1968 Tory win was but a brief interlude. In 1969 it was back under Labour control, and probably has been for most of the intervening years.

David Blunkett and the 1980s "Socialist Republic of South Yorkshire" springs to mind, as does Clive Betts and the financing of the 1991 World Student Games (some of the debts from which are only expected to be paid off this year).

Most, but LibDem control 1999- 2002, 2008-11.