DOO on Northern and general discussion on future staffing arrangements

[47802]

Mod Note: Split from this thread.

rather interesting comment you have there. However can you tell me how many people were employed by the railways when I started in 1980 until I was made redundant in November 2013?

Then tell me that the railway isn't efficient!

Yes I am aware that the Railway employees less than it did in 1980 although I suspect some of that is due to reduction in freight and other traffic, and trains which require less maintenance, computer technology etc.

Then no doubt some down to DOO, removal of 2 in the cab for 125mph trains and Steam Heat Trains, so yes there has been some efficiency improvements although you can usually rely on the unions especially the RMT to try an resist any changes especially if they think they can try and play the safety card.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Yes I am aware that the Railway employees less than it did in 1980 although I suspect some of that is due to reduction in freight and other traffic, and trains which require less maintenance etc.

Then no doubt some down to DOO, removal of 2 in the cab for 125mph trains and Steam Heat Trains, so yes there has been some efficiency improvements although you can usually rely on the unions especially the RMT to try an resist any changes especially if they think they can try and play the safety card.

Bitter Bitter Bitter

What on earth do you have against traincrew and its union anyway? what was it? your union couldn't protect you from redundancy so you now the RMT because it is one of the few successful unions? Because it manages to protect its members? what is it? Spoke to an American guy the other day and he was amazed how efficient we are (Conductors/Guards) and he said he not only felt safer but more relaxed about the whole journey. This is someone from a totally different country who have their own ways of doing things and he felt our model was certainly a lot better. When it come down to it Guards/Conductors are responsible for numerous things on a train BUT the main purpose is SAFETY! Ifr you keep stripping down everything to a bare minimum in the long term lives will be lost for the sake of Shareholders pay. Fares will not go down they will still increase that will never change

 

[47802]

Bitter Bitter Bitter

What on earth do you have against traincrew and its union anyway? what was it? your union couldn't protect you from redundancy so you now the RMT because it is one of the few successful unions? Because it manages to protect its members? what is it? Spoke to an American guy the other day and he was amazed how efficient we are (Conductors/Guards) and he said he not only felt safer but more relaxed about the whole journey. This is someone from a totally different country who have their own ways of doing things and he felt our model was certainly a lot better. When it come down to it Guards/Conductors are responsible for numerous things on a train BUT the main purpose is SAFETY! Ifr you keep stripping down everything to a bare minimum in the long term lives will be lost for the sake of Shareholders pay. Fares will not go down they will still increase that will never change

If you think such as DOO is unacceptably unsafe then I suggest you gather your evidence and present it to the HSE otherwise shut up.

As for America well I was on a couple of Amtrak trains a few weeks ago and they didn't seem very efficient in terms of their onboard staff, some of it was probably due to stock with high level doors using low level platforms. The fix for train 1 appeared to be more modern stock with low level doors, and for train 2, all high level platforms, Oh and the New York subway still seem to have Guards which will please you no doubt.

 

[LowLevel]

Don't bother biting chief, it's just another know-nothing with an opinion on a subject I suspect they have little knowledge of. They're basically saying as usual 'people who do the job don't really know anything about doing the job'.

"Respect the front line" is a commonly quoted business methodology. It means you trust your frontline staff to offer expertise and help develop your business. It is my experience that this lasts right up until the point some clever dick comes up with the grand cost saving plan then no matter how many of your frontliners scream 'no, this is stupid', it plunges merrily ahead.

No matter how many drivers, guards, signallers, controllers etc shout about the plan, they will be ignored because It Is The Plan and it can't be wrong.

Obviously the likes of Japanese Railways have got it all wrong and the cheaper option that is also in use elsewhere must be the right one.

Personally I think a national guards' strike is in order if this goes ahead. I'd be up for it. If you can get ASLEF to join the party by pointing out some of the other aspects being introduced that are certainly forerunners, even better.

Please note this doesn't mandate a system like the SouthEastern one where the HS1 services can't run without a safety trained train manager even if they don't do the doors - this says the driver in sole charge of safety. To an extent if you invest in the stations, trains and signalling sufficient this could work in many situations. Having a ticket sales only person or no one at all is going down a very bad road.

How can the driver be in charge of safety if he's incapacitated or dead away from the kind of environment where there's a station every mile or so :roll:

Rather than just saying parrot fashion 'DOO IS SAFE, GET RID OF THE GUARDS, THEY'RE OUTDATED', perhaps the likes of 47802 and TUC could explain their expertise as to in what manner it is definitely as safe as having a second safety trained member of staff and why this makes it appropriate to get rid of the guards. I'm a guard, so I know the theory - do you guys actually know anything about what you're on about or are you just repeating a headline you're being fed? On LOROL all stations are now staffed, this is definitely not being proposed for Northern either so you don't even have that element of 'there's someone just up the road'.

 

[Tomnick]

If you think such as DOO is unacceptably unsafe then I suggest you gather your evidence and present it to the HSE otherwise shut up.

As for America well I was on a couple of Amtrak trains a few weeks ago and they didn't seem very efficient in terms of their onboard staff, some of it was probably due to stock with high level doors using low level platforms. The fix for train 1 appeared to be more modern stock with low level doors, and for train 2, all high level platforms, Oh and the New York subway still seem to have Guards which will please you no doubt. In fact the general impression I got of America was that frequently they would employ 2 people to do what would be done by 1 person in the UK.

I'd have thought the ORR and RSSB would be the more interested bodies personally. Perhaps we should start with the FCC incident at Kentish Town anyway, where the passengers were left largely in the dark (literally and otherwise) for three hours or so whilst the driver attended to his own duties, leading to a complete loss of control of the situation and, ultimately, the train moving with doors open as the frustrated passengers repeatedly pulled door releases. I think that effectively highlights the importance of having someone to look after the passengers in such situations. How about those accidents, often in rural locations, where the driver has become incapacitated, leaving the guard to carry out emergency protection? How about the TPE driver who suffered a heart attack in a rural location and was saved by the prompt actions of, amongst others, the guard?

 

[bunnahabhain]

Personally I think a national guards' strike is in order if this goes ahead. I'd be up for it. If you can get ASLEF to join the party by pointing out some of the other aspects being introduced that are certainly forerunners, even better.

Excellent, I do love a good BBQ! Name the time and the place squire.

 

[northwichcat]

Remember this is a consultation not what will happen. Rail staff and unions are both able to respond to the consultation.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Excellent, I do love a good BBQ! Name the time and the place squire.

Strikes don't actually cost TOC's money. However an overtime ban or work to rule certainly does
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Remember this is a consultation not what will happen. Rail staff and unions are both able to respond to the consultation.

And do you really think the Tory scum give a flying **** about anyone apart from their shareholder buddies? I haven't seen Mr Osborne board a train at Knutsford yet. However he does like to board 1st class at Wilmslow

 

[northwichcat]

Strikes don't actually cost TOC's money. However an overtime ban or work to rule certainly does

If it's a franchise requirement to do something and the TOC implements something then they wouldn't be able to negotiate with the union, they'd need DfT approval to revert the change.

In Italy strikes aren't allowed on some services and are only allowed in the off-peak period. I heard our government was looking at something similar in response to the LU strikes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And do you really think the Tory scum give a flying **** about anyone apart from their shareholder buddies? I haven't seen Mr Osborne board a train at Knutsford yet. However he does like to board 1st class at Wilmslow

You mean the Mr Osborne who inadvertently backed a reduction in peak time service from Northwich/Knutsford-Manchester because he didn't realise that enhancing the Manchester-Wimslow-London services (which he publicly backed) meant something had to give?

They will need to find a way of allowing wheelchair bound passengers to board trains (under EU legislation), so either DOO would only be allowed where every station called at is staffed or the on board ticket inspector would be required to perform other non-revenue related work.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

If it's a franchise requirement to do something and the TOC implements something then they wouldn't be able to negotiate with the union, they'd need DfT approval to revert the change.

In Italy strikes aren't allowed on some services and are only allowed in the off-peak period. I heard our government was looking at something similar in response to the LU strikes.

Our beloved government will do anything to destroy unions. They don't care about the likes of working people and that's why its pretty much guaranteed they will be history at the next election. Lets face it they only got in because of the worldwide recession that so many people suffered from and even then for a Majority they had to form a coalition with Lib Dems. Look at East Coast to keep to their Ideology they are doing their utmost to re privatise the TOC even though it actually has been a roaring success since going back into public hands.

 

[petersi]

Just an observation from some one not involved with the rail industry
What other industries would it be OK to have one person responsible for in same cases over a thousand people(I.e 12 car train). I sure if you were to run a rock venue with a thousand person capacity you would need more than one person on dutity to ensure complete safety of visitors.
IMO One major incident on a 12 car train and there enquiry and a requirement for at least one if not two safety people per train.

 

[danbarnstall]

Reading around this forum in other sections it seems Northern are now pondering DOO. I know Merseyrail are already looking to move in this direction to post 2019. Will this make the role of a conductor completely redundant or will it just mean an evolution into a more customer focus based role?

As someone trying to get into the industry as a conductor this is making me think twice now. Any opinions would be much appreciated, I desperately want this career path but all this scaremongering is clouding my vision now. Last year I lost my job due to redundancy at Cammell Laird and it was horrific, im in an ok job not but really want my next step to be something for life.

Regards Dan

 

[northwichcat]

Just an observation from some one not involved with the rail industry
What other industries would it be OK to have one person responsible for in same cases over a thousand people(I.e 12 car train). I sure if you were to run a rock venue with a thousand person capacity you would need more than one person on dutity to ensure complete safety of visitors.
IMO One major incident on a 12 car train and there enquiry and a requirement for at least one if not two safety people per train.

Well on a plane you need one cabin crew member per 50 seats.

I'm pretty sure the policing level sports stadia also relates to the number of seats, which was an objection by Wigan Athletic as they know for football games the stadium will always have large sections of empty seats.

 

[47802]

I wouldn't claim to be an expert on railway safety, but there are DOO trains operating on a daily basis, so one assumes that these are regarded as safe by such as the RSSB, now maybe the people in these departments don't know their job or are wrong, in which case instead of complaining about me or moaning about it on here, take it up with them and see what you can do to get it changed.

If those responsible for railway safety stopped DOO on the grounds of Safety then you would get no argument from me but that not what's happening at the moment is it?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Speaking to quite a few DOO drivers over the years a lot of the more minor safety issues get brushed under the carpet. Luckily for passengers a major incident has not happened YET but it will happen eventually and lets hope lives are not lost. The 1st person incapacitated in an accident is almost always the driver. That's why the Guard is safety Critical we are the BACKUP that is already on the SCENE. Not only are we versed in emergency procedures we also have a little thing called ROUTE KNOWLEDGE. could the average minimum wage minimum training if they are travelling on the up or down fast (or the up slow) could he tell how far the next junction is? In the middle of nowhere does he/she even have a clue where the nearest crossing is or where to send emergency services? sure GSMR helps but it is far from foolproof.

 

[LowLevel]

But why is it the right option just because it's a cheap one? Other countries appear to disagree that it is right, but no, here in Britain we will choose cheap over anything - look at all those fine outsourcing contractors with those lovely scandals all over the shop.

DOO was developed when the railways looked a dead duck - they're now booming so why take the risk of going down the cheap n nasty route. DOO incidents are also said to be massively unreported as only the driver sees - I'd love a true reflection and the existing stats for DOO vs guard operated trains should also be published.

 

[313103]

Yes I am aware that the Railway employees less than it did in 1980 although I suspect some of that is due to reduction in freight and other traffic, and trains which require less maintenance, computer technology etc.

Then no doubt some down to DOO, removal of 2 in the cab for 125mph trains and Steam Heat Trains, so yes there has been some efficiency improvements although you can usually rely on the unions especially the RMT to try an resist any changes especially if they think they can try and play the safety card.

I would as a loyal RMT member would like to know where it was in the 1980s when mass DOO was introduced? The RMT couldn't save my job either in November 2013 when DOO was introduced on the North London Line, yet you say the union resist change, as far as I know they accepted DOO (and that is a FACT) because it wasn't going to be in a win, win situation it had to accept a lose, lose situation, so me and 128 of my colleagues were put out to grass.

I would also add that you do not know the first thing about the RMT, you have taken the traditional view that the RMT are opposed to change, Bob Crow once said in a interview 'We are not adverse to change, because since the railways began they have changed throughout history'. The change they are not prepared to make is the race to the bottom. The RMT is not run by its General Secretary, its Executive committee or its head office, the RMT is run by its members and it tells the General secretary to carry those instructions out.

It seems you think that the union are strike happy, well I have been in numerous meetings with Managers and Directors to prevent strikes rather then have them, for every dispute I have been involved in (and I count them on one hand, not bad for 30+ years) I have helped to stop at least 3 others.

It appears that the change your looking for is for complete DOO across the network, along with a wrath of other job redundancies within the industry all on the basis of what? that I cant answer. But I do hope that you and others like you do not complain when staff made redundant find themselves claiming benefit to survive, there isn't enough jobs going around as it is.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

May I rejoin this debate to ask on a comparative basis, what was the position taken by the trades unions when another form of public transport, buses, became one-man operated, with the driver being given fare collection duties in addition to his driving duty ?

 

[313103]

Speaking to quite a few DOO drivers over the years a lot of the more minor safety issues get brushed under the carpet. Luckily for passengers a major incident has not happened YET but it will happen eventually and lets hope lives are not lost. The 1st person incapacitated in an accident is almost always the driver. That's why the Guard is safety Critical we are the BACKUP that is already on the SCENE. Not only are we versed in emergency procedures we also have a little thing called ROUTE KNOWLEDGE. could the average minimum wage minimum training if they are travelling on the up or down fast (or the up slow) could he tell how far the next junction is? In the middle of nowhere does he/she even have a clue where the nearest crossing is or where to send emergency services? sure GSMR helps but it is far from foolproof.

Not strictly true. One of the trains involved in the Ladbroke Grove train crash was operated in DOO-P mode. the only other member of staff in that train was a off duty Driver manager who managed to get the door opened in the rear cab so people could escape. Of course both drivers of those trains were fatally injured.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Not strictly true. One of the trains involved in the Ladbroke Grove train crash was operated in DOO-P mode. the only other member of staff in that train was a off duty Driver manager who managed to get the door opened in the rear cab so people could escape. Of course both drivers of those trains were fatally injured.

RIP to both drivers (and of course the 29 Passengers). A horrible accident

 

[313103]

May I rejoin this debate to ask on a comparative basis, what was the position taken by the trades unions when another form of public transport, buses, became one-man operated, with the driver being given fare collection duties in addition to his driving duty ?

Well history will say the T&G did nothing, and that would be a fact. I spoke to many bus conductors towards the end of traditional Routemaster operation in London and many felt completely let down by the union for not even saying anything. Some had spent many years in that union and left the industry with a bitter pill to swallow from the union and a sour taste left on the tounge by Management (TFL). Some had wished they had Bob Crow as their leader.

You speak to bus drivers now and they are envious of those who have a trade union like RMT, since the privitaisation of the bus industry, wages, terms and conditions have got worse not better.

In the bus industry it really was a race to the bottom.

 

[LowLevel]

Not strictly true. One of the trains involved in the Ladbroke Grove train crash was operated in DOO-P mode. the only other member of staff in that train was a off duty Driver manager who managed to get the door opened in the rear cab so people could escape. Of course both drivers of those trains were fatally injured.

Ah yes, that'll be the one where the driver and every passenger in the front coach were killed instantly with the rest of the train engulfed in a fireball.

Oh well, TPWS technology means that can't happen. Oh hang on, the RAIB have just launched an investigation into a train fitted with TPWS driving past several TPWS fitted signals on to a single line. Ho hum.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Meanwhile in a land far, far away...

Advance works Provision of Driver Only Operation (DOO) platform equipment at Carmyle, Mount Vernon, Baillieston, Bargeddie and Kirkwood stations.
 Platform extension works to cater for 6 car EMU sets with 20m long cars.

This is from the NR CP5 Enhancements Plan (31 Mar 2014).
This what is being rolled out for the Rutherglen-Coatbridge electrification (the Carmyle line) in Scotland, to be ready in August.
If Scotrail can do it, and with existing EMUs, what's so special about Northern?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Meanwhile in a land far, far away...



This is from the NR CP5 Enhancements Plan (31 Mar 2014).
This what is being rolled out for the Rutherglen-Coatbridge electrification (the Carmyle line) in Scotland, to be ready in August.
If Scotrail can do it, and with existing EMUs, what's so special about Northern?

How many stations in the Northern Rail area compared to the whole of Scotland?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

How many stations in the Northern Rail area compared to the whole of Scotland?

I don't think there is any expectation that DOO will suddenly be operational over the whole Northern area, any more than in Scotland.
But they have an DOO operation in Glasgow and are gradually extending it when routes are upgraded.
No doubt it will apply to all the EGIP lines as they are electrified.
I think DfT expects the same with the new Northern electric routes, during the lifetime of the new franchise .

 

[47802]

I would as a loyal RMT member would like to know where it was in the 1980s when mass DOO was introduced? The RMT couldn't save my job either in November 2013 when DOO was introduced on the North London Line, yet you say the union resist change, as far as I know they accepted DOO (and that is a FACT) because it wasn't going to be in a win, win situation it had to accept a lose, lose situation, so me and 128 of my colleagues were put out to grass.

I would also add that you do not know the first thing about the RMT, you have taken the traditional view that the RMT are opposed to change, Bob Crow once said in a interview 'We are not adverse to change, because since the railways began they have changed throughout history'. The change they are not prepared to make is the race to the bottom. The RMT is not run by its General Secretary, its Executive committee or its head office, the RMT is run by its members and it tells the General secretary to carry those instructions out.

It seems you think that the union are strike happy, well I have been in numerous meetings with Managers and Directors to prevent strikes rather then have them, for every dispute I have been involved in (and I count them on one hand, not bad for 30+ years) I have helped to stop at least 3 others.

It appears that the change your looking for is for complete DOO across the network, along with a wrath of other job redundancies within the industry all on the basis of what? that I cant answer. But I do hope that you and others like you do not complain when staff made redundant find themselves claiming benefit to survive, there isn't enough jobs going around as it is.

Well there would be the Bed-Pan services for starters, well after the 317's had been sat in the sidings for a bit, while the unions resolved their dispute over DOO and then other implementations over the years.

If the Safety Authorities think its safe then yes it should be implemented across the network, if not then it shouldn't.

Of course there is an argument that's its safe but its less safe than having a guard, and that may be true, in which case the railway safety authorities have to make a judgement which they clearly have, and if or until that judgement changes there would appear to be no reason not to continue implementing further DOO,

 

[Moonshot]

Well history will say the T&G did nothing, and that would be a fact. I spoke to many bus conductors towards the end of traditional Routemaster operation in London and many felt completely let down by the union for not even saying anything. Some had spent many years in that union and left the industry with a bitter pill to swallow from the union and a sour taste left on the tounge by Management (TFL). Some had wished they had Bob Crow as their leader.

You speak to bus drivers now and they are envious of those who have a trade union like RMT, since the privitaisation of the bus industry, wages, terms and conditions have got worse not better.

In the bus industry it really was a race to the bottom.

Nobody is forcing anyone to be a bus driver.....if they dont like their T&Cs the solution is simple.......work elsewhere.

 

[47802]

Nobody is forcing anyone to be a bus driver.....if they dont like their T&Cs the solution is simple.......work elsewhere.

Indeed as business is a business its not a charity for its employees

 

[WatcherZero]

Well on a plane you need one cabin crew member per 50 seats.

I'm pretty sure the policing level sports stadia also relates to the number of seats, which was an objection by Wigan Athletic as they know for football games the stadium will always have large sections of empty seats.

No the issue for Latics was as with every club they have to pay for policing within the ground, however GMP tryed to bill them for policing the town centre on match days too, something they didnt do for other clubs in the county so they succesfully objected.


As to DOO, Driver Only Operation doesnt mean there wont be any other staff on the train, indeed a requirement of the next Northern franchise is to increase revenue protection with the hundreds of unstaffed stations identified as a major issue, so there is likely to be more staff on the trains not less as it is cheaper to put one or two staff on a dozen trains than to fully staff a dozen previously unmanned stations with all the possible entry and exit points. Savings will come from non safety critical staff requiring lower salaries and they will have more time to check tickets than when they were covering doors, particularly on inner city services where they cant stray far from the door panel on a crowded train and dont have enough time to go the full length of trains as stations are so close together.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Indeed as business is a business its not a charity for its employees

Charity No.... responsibility to its Passengers and Staff most certainly yes. Most Passengers when told the responsibilities of a guard compared to a minimum wage off the street employee with poor training would be shocked (especially up here) when Guards are very visible on most services would be furious especially with given the fact that the only people who would benefit are shareholders.

Heck just read the conversations on here about G4s and the ilk and you want them to be in charge of your safety lol