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East Coast Timetable Dec 24

LNW-GW Joint

LNW-GW Joint

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swt_passenger said:
In the 2016 track access application that all these proposed timetable changes descend from, (ie the 8 tph total LDHS paths), they had a list of infrastructure interventions required to make it all work:
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...
swt_passenger said:
Did the Kings Cross throat remodelling effectively become one of the pre-requisites for the 8 tph timetable, as it doesn’t seem to have been mentioned in 2015/16…
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That list doesn't include the ECML power supply upgrade either.
 
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TT-ONR-NRN

TT-ONR-NRN

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Class 170101 said:
Perhaps, but don't forget it broke up othr sensible routes like Plymouth / Bristol to Scotland via WCML.
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It also means the completely electrified 300 miles between Birmingham and Glasgow/Edinburgh via WCML is served entirely by an hourly electric Pendolino all day, rather than an hourly diesel Voyager under the wires all day. God knows the Voyagers aren't numerous enough to keep that going either. So swings and roundabouts.
 
Railperf

Railperf

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Has anyone come up with a proposal that retains other operators rights but improves on the current offering in terms of speed or frequency - even if it means longer journey times than the hoped for 4-hour figure?

EDIT - Was just examining a couple of runs. The 10:00 KGX to Aberdeen - has to be given pathing time at Welwyn North for freight. Then it catches up a Norwich to Liverpool service at Grantham - even though that is booked to leave Peterborough more than 15 min before it.. By the time it reaches Retford and on to Doncaster it is on the coat tails of the 9.48 Hull Trains service.

So no room for error on any of those services running late.

However today, I note the freight was cancelled, so the 10:00 ends up 5 mins early by HighDyke Jn just 2 mins behind the on-time Norwich to Liverpool Lime Street, and then it catches up the 948 Hull trains service at Retford which itself has been delayed by the 0906 Kings Cross to York itself started from London 20 mins later than planned and delayd a further 10 mins at Peterborough. LAst time I looked the 10:00 was around 36 mins late approaching Aberdeen. I didn't yet ana;yse the effects further North where TPE and XC come in at York. And then arriving late into Edinburgh, these trains have to fit arund Scotrail services.

And that is what happens when you try to run an Intercity service alongside regional and semi fast services on what is effectively a two track railway. If it can't work now, how will they make it work with even more s ervices crammed in.

That's why the French built their TGV lines in the 1980's. They foresaw that trying to improve speed, frequency and capacity on their main lines would cost too much for just a short-term gain.
 
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Northern158170

Northern158170

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It lost 2 minutes at Colton Junction where there was a southbound XC (on time) and a northbound freight train (216 minutes down). It then lost 3 minutes at Newcastle (no idea why) then 5 minutes at Dunbar (also no idea why). It gained 3 minutes at Edinburgh then lost 12 at Haymarket (once again no idea why). It lost 4 at Dundee Central Junction. It then lost another 16 minutes from there to Aberdeen as it got stuck behind the 14:39 Scotrail service Glasgow-Inverness via Aberdeen (although it did get progressively further behind it as it went along, so one wonders whether it did)
 
8

800001

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Northern158170 said:
It lost 2 minutes at Colton Junction where there was a southbound XC (on time) and a northbound freight train (216 minutes down). It then lost 3 minutes at Newcastle (no idea why) then 5 minutes at Dunbar (also no idea why). It gained 3 minutes at Edinburgh then lost 12 at Haymarket (once again no idea why). It lost 4 at Dundee Central Junction. It then lost another 16 minutes from there to Aberdeen as it got stuck behind the 14:39 Scotrail service Glasgow-Inverness via Aberdeen (although it did get progressively further behind it as it went along, so one wonders whether it did)
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20ESR between Stenton and Dunbar, at Haymarket a Passenger egress alarm was activated, due to a passenger late to leave train.
 
T

takethegame

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Railperf said:
EDIT - Was just examining a couple of runs. The 10:00 KGX to Aberdeen - has to be given pathing time at Welwyn North for freight. Then it catches up a Norwich to Liverpool service at Grantham - even though that is booked to leave Peterborough more than 15 min before it.. By the time it reaches Retford and on to Doncaster it is on the coat tails of the 9.48 Hull Trains service.

So no room for error on any of those services running late.

However today, I note the freight was cancelled, so the 10:00 ends up 5 mins early by HighDyke Jn just 2 mins behind the on-time Norwich to Liverpool Lime Street, and then it catches up the 948 Hull trains service at Retford which itself has been delayed by the 0906 Kings Cross to York itself started from London 20 mins later than planned and delayd a further 10 mins at Peterborough. LAst time I looked the 10:00 was around 36 mins late approaching Aberdeen. I didn't yet ana;yse the effects further North where TPE and XC come in at York. And then arriving late into Edinburgh, these trains have to fit arund Scotrail services.
Click to expand...

I happened to be watching yesterday and it was a bit of a carve up, possibly not helped by poor foresight by signal operators.

The on time Norwich to Liverpool (1R66) was allowed onto the two-track section at Tallington just ahead of the late running KGX to Hull (1H02), which as a 90 mph DMU further delayed 1H02. 1R66 has a brief wait outside Grantham due to a late running EMR Skegness to Nottingham, further delaying 1H02, by which time 1W11 was right behind all the way to Retford. But unbelievably, 1H02 was allowed back onto the main line in front of 1W11 from the loop platform whilst 1W11 had to wait on the mainline. The same happened at Doncaster too, so obviously 1W11 picked up more and more delays.

Two points:
  • No room for error at all in the scheduling/allocation as per the original point
  • Why on earth would a late running train be given priority over other services, impacting on them, or at least some initiative shown to minimise the disruption?
 
Railperf

Railperf

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takethegame said:
I happened to be watching yesterday and it was a bit of a carve up, possibly not helped by poor foresight by signal operators.

The on time Norwich to Liverpool (1R66) was allowed onto the two-track section at Tallington just ahead of the late running KGX to Hull (1H02), which as a 90 mph DMU further delayed 1H02. 1R66 has a brief wait outside Grantham due to a late running EMR Skegness to Nottingham, further delaying 1H02, by which time 1W11 was right behind all the way to Retford. But unbelievably, 1H02 was allowed back onto the main line in front of 1W11 from the loop platform whilst 1W11 had to wait on the mainline. The same happened at Doncaster too, so obviously 1W11 picked up more and more delays.

Two points:
  • No room for error at all in the scheduling/allocation as per the original point
  • Why on earth would a late running train be given priority over other services, impacting on them, or at least some initiative shown to minimise the disruption?
Click to expand...
This shows why companies like EMR should really be running bi-modes with the power of a 755/4 instead of clapped out old 158's. On electric power it would get through to Stoke Tunnel far quicker, but capacity at Grantham does not help. It seems that at Retford the route out is set as the same time as the route into the loop , or is it that the overlap is too short in the down loop platform to give a train on the down mainline the route through?
 
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Bikeman78

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Railperf said:
This shows why companies like EMR should really be running bi-modes with the power of a 755/4 instead of clapped out old 158's. On electric power it would get through to Stoke Tunnel far quicker, but capacity at Grantham does not help. It seems that at Retford the route out is set as the same time as the route into the loop , or is it that the overlap is too short in the down loop platform to give a train on the down mainline the route through?
Click to expand...
Stadlers from Norwich to Liverpool would be rather nice!
 
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endofthetunnel

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takethegame said:
I happened to be watching yesterday and it was a bit of a carve up, possibly not helped by poor foresight by signal operators.

The on time Norwich to Liverpool (1R66) was allowed onto the two-track section at Tallington just ahead of the late running KGX to Hull (1H02), which as a 90 mph DMU further delayed 1H02. 1R66 has a brief wait outside Grantham due to a late running EMR Skegness to Nottingham, further delaying 1H02, by which time 1W11 was right behind all the way to Retford. But unbelievably, 1H02 was allowed back onto the main line in front of 1W11 from the loop platform whilst 1W11 had to wait on the mainline. The same happened at Doncaster too, so obviously 1W11 picked up more and more delays.

Two points:
  • No room for error at all in the scheduling/allocation as per the original point
  • Why on earth would a late running train be given priority over other services, impacting on them, or at least some initiative shown to minimise the disruption?
Click to expand...
Without dragging this off topic, the initial poor regulation at Stoke Jn was by the automated system which unfortunately the Peterborough signaller didn’t manage to override.
Similarly, at that particular time the signaller on the panel at Doncaster was primarily dealing with getting the overhead line around Newark examined after earlier trippings, staff taking line blockages etc, which meant there was less of their time available to make a regulating decision at Retford. It’s worth remembering that these are different TOCs, so if the LNER overtake would further delay the late 1H02 this needs more thought than 2 LNER trains.

By the time they reached Doncaster the decision was made to just leave them in booked order and keep the rest of the station running normally rather than use a different route and overlap into platform for 1H02 to allow the overtake, but locking up the station for other movements.

But you are absolutely correct that running the whole line and all stations along it on minimum margins and junction clearance times doesn’t leave any room for error or recovery, and is bound to lead to more of these compound delays.
 
A

Asmo

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takethegame said:
I happened to be watching yesterday and it was a bit of a carve up, possibly not helped by poor foresight by signal operators.

The on time Norwich to Liverpool (1R66) was allowed onto the two-track section at Tallington just ahead of the late running KGX to Hull (1H02), which as a 90 mph DMU further delayed 1H02. 1R66 has a brief wait outside Grantham due to a late running EMR Skegness to Nottingham, further delaying 1H02, by which time 1W11 was right behind all the way to Retford. But unbelievably, 1H02 was allowed back onto the main line in front of 1W11 from the loop platform whilst 1W11 had to wait on the mainline. The same happened at Doncaster too, so obviously 1W11 picked up more and more delays.

Two points:
  • No room for error at all in the scheduling/allocation as per the original point
  • Why on earth would a late running train be given priority over other services, impacting on them, or at least some initiative shown to minimise the disruption?
Click to expand...
Why was the Hull Train Hitachi Paragon bi-mode only doing 90mph?
 
T

The Planner

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weeklycommuter said:
This is the calendar of milestone dates for December 2024 and May 2025 but I am not sure on which dates the new timetables become generally available.
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The end of offer response is where there is some reality about any timetables final state, so July onwards is when stuff becomes apparent. The general feeling is that Dec 24 for the ECML is in the bin
 
5

55002

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The Planner said:
The end of offer response is where there is some reality about any timetables final state, so July onwards is when stuff becomes apparent. The general feeling is that Dec 24 for the ECML is in the bin
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How did that meeting go last week…anything decided
 
W

weeklycommuter

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Class 466 said:
Am sure kicking the can down the road again will suddenly fix all the issues
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I suggest presenting this Government with a list of the additional infrastructure investments that need to made (including those on which the planned new East Coast Mainline timetable was originally based which the Government then cancelled in spending cuts while still expecting all the original benefits to be delivered) in order to deliver the new East Coast Mainline timetable which this Government announced in the budget last month as definitely happening in December 2024.
 
Halish Railway

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Is anything infrastructure wise going to happen between December 2024 and December 2025? The only possible thing I can think of is maybe the new platforms at Darlington opening but maybe even that won't happen.
 
43074

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The Planner said:
Were some Chinese whispers saying Dec 25 now, no idea if true.
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Given it's fundamentally the same timetable - bar some changes to stopping patterns north of York - that the industry tried to implement in December 2022 first time around, deferring it for a third time with all the issues it has seems nonsensical.

Frankly it needs to go back to square 1 as the whole situation is a complete mess, but that would take longer than Dec 25.
 
T

The Planner

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43074 said:
Given it's fundamentally the same timetable - bar some changes to stopping patterns north of York - that the industry tried to implement in December 2022 first time around, deferring it for a third time with all the issues it has seems nonsensical.

Frankly it needs to go back to square 1 as the whole situation is a complete mess, but that would take longer than Dec 25.
Click to expand...
I still personally think the delay will be used to find some contractural way or use of the Network Code (Part J) to move freight about, thats cheaper than building stuff.
 
LNW-GW Joint

LNW-GW Joint

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Any further delay means a different DfT will (most likely) be in charge, which may or may not change things.
Is there a subset of the "Dec 24" timetable that can be delivered (eg south of Leeds/Doncaster), or is it all or nothing?
 
DanNCL

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LNW-GW Joint said:
Any further delay means a different DfT will (most likely) be in charge, which may or may not change things.
Is there a subset of the "Dec 24" timetable that can be delivered (eg south of Leeds/Doncaster), or is it all or nothing?
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All or nothing. The LNER Edinburgh services if retimed south of Doncaster would turn up at York at the wrong times for their current paths northwards.

Something that probably could be salvaged if the timetable change is binned is hourly all day calls at Chester-le-Street. That was partly implemented in the current timetable in December but still has a few 2 hour gaps, it shouldn’t be impossible to rectify that.
 
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