Edinburgh-London rail journeys "to be cut to 4 hours"

[diamond chap]

Many rail journeys between Edinburgh and London are expected to be cut to around four hours from next December in a long-awaited move that will accelerate the shift from plane to train, London North Eastern Railway (LNER) has told Scotland on Sunday.
A final decision to speed up the east coast main line is awaited from the UK Government, which would reduce some trips between Waverley and Kings Cross by nearly half an hour.

source: https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...il-journeys-to-be-cut-to-4-hours-lner-4468458

 

[sjm77]

Many LNER services are still running to timetables that the HST could easily achieve, there is plenty of slack with the 80X to speed thing up. However most trains will continue to take more than 4 hours, the 4 hour time would only apply to one train per hour and the occasional Northbound Peterborough stops would have to be taken out of the Edinburgh Fasts

 

[The exile]

Wasn't "sub 4 hours" achieved with the introduction of the HST back in the 70s?

 

[StephenHunter]

Wasn't "sub 4 hours" achieved with the introduction of the HST back in the 70s?

Only for the Flying Scotsman.

 

[Peter0124]

The 1E01 05:40 service does it in 4 hours, but with only one intermediate call at Newcastle. Can Berwick be cut from the fasts and instead put into the semi fasts?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Isn't it all linked to the proposed ECML timetable revision after the major power upgrades on the northern half of the route are completed?
The Edinburgh time is only one of a number of improvements.
So far the DfT hasn't approved the final specification, as it impacts other users of the route.
And I don't think the power upgrades are finished yet.

 

[swt_passenger]

The 1E01 05:40 service does it in 4 hours, but with only one intermediate call at Newcastle. Can Berwick be cut from the fasts and instead put into the semi fasts?

The 2016 access application that this devolves from had 2 tph Edinburgh to Kings Cross, one fast and one semifast, none of the fasts called at Berwick. Half the fasts were Newcastle only, the others Newcastle and York only.

I‘d expect Berwick will stay with the slower services, but I don’t recall seeing a recent track access application.
(The latest TAA on the NR site is to extend the current timetable to Dec 2024.)

 

[TheBigD]

In the proposed May 2022 timetable that wasn't implemented, the LNER journey times were generally as follows...

Ex Kings Cross...
xx03 Edinburgh 4hr27 (fastest 4hr24)
xx10 Leeds 2hr11
xx30 Edinburgh 4hr08 (fastest 4hr04)
xx33 Newcastle 3hr03
xx40 Leeds 2hr10 (fastest 2hr08)
xx47 (odd hours) York 2hr05
xx47 (even hours) Lincoln 1hr53

 

[Brissle Girl]

Wasn't "sub 4 hours" achieved with the introduction of the HST back in the 70s?

No, it was the introduction of electric services that brought about the first regular 3hr 59m timing. IIRC the introduction of HSTs brought the headline journey time down to around 4hrs 30mins in the late 1970s.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

No, it was the introduction of electric services that brought about the first regular 3hr 59m timing. IIRC the introduction of HSTs brought the headline journey time down to around 4hrs 30mins in the late 1970s.

Correct, it was the headline ‘Scottish Pullman’ that had 3h59m advertised journey times, initially using a 2+8 IC225 Pullman rake, later extended to 2+9. The 1991 Summer timetable shows the 1700 ex-KX reaching Edinburgh at 2059, with two intermediate stops at Darlington and Newcastle. (I believe it was subsequently adjusted to stop at York.) To achieve this timing other services were effectively moved out of the way, including a Bristol-Newcastle IC service being overtaken at Durham. In a similar fashion, the 1500 ex-KX required the 1720(ish) Newcastle-Berwick commuter service to be looped - twice - at Wooden Gate and also Crag Mill, which ultimately resulted in its cutback to the wayside hamlet of Chathill, which it still bizarrely does to this day.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Presumably these fast paths will result in a reduction in overall paths and potentially have an effect on crosscountry/tpe/lumo/freight

 

[hexagon789]

Wasn't "sub 4 hours" achieved with the introduction of the HST back in the 70s?

No. 4h23 by 1988 was the fastest.

In 1978 it was 4h50.

Only for the Flying Scotsman.

Not in 1978.

No, it was the introduction of electric services that brought about the first regular 3hr 59m timing. IIRC the introduction of HSTs brought the headline journey time down to around 4hrs 30mins in the late 1970s.

It wasn't 4h30 until 1984. It then went back up to 4h35, finally reducing to under 4h30 in 1988 when 4h23 was scheduled.

Correct, it was the headline ‘Scottish Pullman’ that had 3h59m advertised journey times, initially using a 2+8 IC225 Pullman rake, later extended to 2+9. The 1991 Summer timetable shows the 1700 ex-KX reaching Edinburgh at 2059, with two intermediate stops at Darlington and Newcastle. (I believe it was subsequently adjusted to stop at York.) To achieve this timing other services were effectively moved out of the way, including a Bristol-Newcastle IC service being overtaken at Durham. In a similar fashion, the 1500 ex-KX required the 1720(ish) Newcastle-Berwick commuter service to be looped - twice - at Wooden Gate and also Crag Mill, which ultimately resulted in its cutback to the wayside hamlet of Chathill, which it still bizarrely does to this day.

There were originally two 3h59 each way, plus another Scottish Pullman serving Darlington instead of York that took slightly over 4hrs, plus the Flying Scotsman about 4h05 (4h55 to Glasgow).

 

[swt_passenger]

Presumably these fast paths will result in a reduction in overall paths and potentially have an effect on crosscountry/tpe/lumo/freight

Yes, that’s already fairly well known. For instance it’s why there’s no longer a TPE through service to Edinburgh via Newcastle, and only the one TPE service per hour York to Newcastle. I think though it doesn't directly affect the number of LUMO paths because their agreed track access was already allowed for

 

[mad_rich]

There's a line in that article which says

The new limited-stop services will be possible with the introduction of a new hourly Newcastle-London service to serve other stations – which LNER said would provide extra seats for Edinburgh-London passengers and more lower fares.

I'm wondering if that 'new hourly Newcastle - London service' is in addition to the current 2tph?

Currently Newcastle-London has a fast train taking ~2h50, and a slow one taking ~3h10. Plus the Flying Scotsman taking 2h35.

In the future, is Newcastle looking at one fast nonstop, taking something like 2h35 + two slow trains taking ~3h10?

 

[CarrotPie]

I'm wondering if that 'new hourly Newcastle - London service' is in addition to the current 2tph?

It is indeed! (source: Modern Railways 1/23)

 

[hexagon789]

There's a line in that article which says

I'm wondering if that 'new hourly Newcastle - London service' is in addition to the current 2tph?

Currently Newcastle-London has a fast train taking ~2h50, and a slow one taking ~3h10. Plus the Flying Scotsman taking 2h35.

In the future, is Newcastle looking at one fast nonstop, taking something like 2h35 + two slow trains taking ~3h10?

The 'new hourly Newcastle - London' is additional, but I believe the fasts (to/from Edinburgh) will still call at York rather than being non-stop.

The sample timetable suggested the Flying Scotsman would gain a York call and actually become slower (4h10) than most of the off-peak Edinburgh fasts (4h05).

Thanks for this - the Flying Badger?

Don't know what autocorrect was up to, should read 'Flying Scotsman' as in the named train service

Class 89

Which had absolutely nothing to do with it, whatever autocorrect may have thought to the contrary!

 

[AJW12]

Yep, it's worded as if otherwise but as far as I know this is just a return of the previously deferred timetable change - upping London to Newcastle to 3tph and generally thinning out the stops in order to speed the services up.
They seem to be working on it again with very little change as this interestingly from mid December last year shows councils representing Berwick and Morpeth still aren't happy: https://www.northumberland.gov.uk/N...ll-continue-to-lobby-for-better-rural-ra.aspx

Under the new arrangements to be introduced in December 2024 there will be nine fewer weekday departures between Berwick and London and ten fewer weekday departures between Berwick and Edinburgh. Between Morpeth and London there will be two less weekday departures and one less weekday departure between Morpeth and Edinburgh.

It'll be interesting to see if it's approved or not. As a greater London resident it's great for the fast Edinburghs to get faster - but with opposition like this (and I know Darlington's politicians are unhappy about them losing the fast London-Edin too), I wonder if the government will continue their habit of just caving and u-turning, and we just end up with a load of stops added and not much real improvement.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Call me old-fashioned, but the government should not be deciding stopping patterns of intercity service groups.

If there is any commercial nous left in the industry at all, LNER should be able to determine which is the most commercially viable strategy and it will maximise the revenue business.

We are told by the railway press that LNER are left to get on with it under OLR unlike the privateers, so this will be interesting.

 

[AJD]

Call my cynical, but on paper I'm sure it will work very well but cue real world issues I see nearly every day such as ARS/DRS conflicts, priority given to 9Jxx/9Sxx at the southern end of the route if you or they are even slightly out of path.

An increasing number of 'Up' 1Txx Kings Lynn-Kings Cross services tend to get put in front at Hitchin south junction despite us on the LNER bearing down on the area at 125mph vs 40mph for the Great Northern train (due to the curve at Cambridge junction.) Highly frustrating to crawl around to a red on the up fast at Hitchin and lose 5-10 minutes as we wait for the 1Txx to pass. What follows is having to run behind it at often no more than 80mph to keep clear of the cautionary signals.

We'll soon watch those 4 hours turn into the 4h20m fast runs they typically run to today. Increasingly cautioned down to red signals at key junctions on a regular basis, then they turn green with the transmission of an 'SG' message despite no sign of a conflicting move anywhere. This is often confirmed when LNER control are notified of the delay.

Fair play to them for trying to improve things, but sadly an increasing number of delays come directly from Network Rail and the two sides don't really talk. We as drivers aren't allowed to challenge the signal box staff and nor would I dare as it doesn't change anything and they can easily pull voice tapes. For the sake of the passengers, I honestly hope it works as advertised!

 

[Diningcar]

Some of the feels like a media release to get Edinburgh/London support. A 9 train reduction to London is ridiculous. It’s more than half. Berwick is the most used station in Northumberland and is a draw for the region. The A1 is a joke. Look forward to no point consultation.

 

[markydh]

There's a line in that article which says

I'm wondering if that 'new hourly Newcastle - London service' is in addition to the current 2tph?

Currently Newcastle-London has a fast train taking ~2h50, and a slow one taking ~3h10. Plus the Flying Scotsman taking 2h35.

In the future, is Newcastle looking at one fast nonstop, taking something like 2h35 + two slow trains taking ~3h10?

It is, and most people who are aware of it are completely against it as it reduces links across the north. We in Newcastle absolutely do not need a 3 tph service to London and definitely not at the expense of one of our Leeds-bound services. The cuts that will occur at Northumberland stations are scandalous.

 

[A S Leib]

We in Newcastle absolutely do not need a 3 tph service to Londo

I definitely don't speak for everybody here, but I'd find more stops at Stevenage on existing services more useful than a third London service; the time saved to get between Newcastle and London wouldn't be enough to outweigh the 50+ minutes of going back on oneself to get to Stevenage.

There's also the fact that there's already four hours of the day on weekdays when there's three Newcastle departures from King's Cross within an hour, and another four with three departures to Tyne and Wear (and from 10:30 to 11:29 there's the 10:30 Aberdeen LNER, 10:45 Edinburgh Lumo, 11:00 Edinburgh LNER and 11:27 Sunderland Grand Central).

 

[dk1]

Wasn't "sub 4 hours" achieved with the introduction of the HST back in the 70s?

No that was 91/DVT operating the Scottish Pullman.

06:00 up and 15:00 down (SX) and apparently only successful 30% of the time.

 

[hexagon789]

No that was 91/DVT operating the Scottish Pullman.

06:00 up and 15:00 down (SX) and apparently only successful 30% of the time.

Two originally at 3h59, plus a third Scottish Pullman timed at 4h08 (Darlington instead of York), the Flying Scotsman was also at 4h08 and made Glasgow in 4h55.

Northbound:

0800 The Scottish Pullman (York & Newcastle) 3h59
1000 Flying Scotsman (Peterborough, York & Newcastle) 4h08
1400 The Scottish Pullman (York & Newcastle) 3h59
1700 The Scottish Pullman (Darlington & Newcastle) 4h08

Southbound:

0630 The Scottish Pullman (Newcastle & York) 3h59
1500 The Scottish Pullman (Newcastle & York) 3h59

Other services were over 4h10.

 

[dk1]

Two originally at 3h59, plus a third Scottish Pullman timed at 4h08 (Darlington instead of York), the Flying Scotsman was also at 4h08 and made Glasgow in 4h55.

Northbound:

0800 The Scottish Pullman (York & Newcastle) 3h59
1000 Flying Scotsman (Peterborough, York & Newcastle) 4h08
1400 The Scottish Pullman (York & Newcastle) 3h59
1700 The Scottish Pullman (Darlington & Newcastle) 4h08

Southbound:

0630 The Scottish Pullman (Newcastle & York) 3h59
1500 The Scottish Pullman (Newcastle & York) 3h59

Other services were over 4.25 hours.

Thank you.

 

[paul1609]

is the fastest service from Gatwick to Edinburgh still a cross platfrom Thameslink to Lumo connection at Stevenage?

 

[A S Leib]

is the fastest service from Gatwick to Edinburgh still a cross platfrom Thameslink to Lumo connection at Stevenage?

From what I can tell from the National Rail website, yes, but only by around ten minutes (and only works two or three times per day, although for that distance most people probably wouldn't be massively concerned about the frequency).

 

[James90012]

Does worry me that this has continued to be developed without any public engagement or awareness - some of the issues before were really significant.

 

[JonathanH]

is the fastest service from Gatwick to Edinburgh still a cross platfrom Thameslink to Lumo connection at Stevenage?

That depends on how you measure the connection times at Kings Cross and Stevenage.

I'd imagine that the fastest connection for a fit able bodied person with no luggage and a walk on ticket could still be a train from Gatwick to Victoria, Victoria line to Kings Cross, and train from there to Edinburgh.

Might just about beat the 1116 - 1641 timing of the Thameslink / Lumo connection at Stevenage although not by much. 1124 - 1643 in the other direction. 1130 from Edinburgh might just about get someone on the 1605 from Victoria with a 1547 arrival at Kings Cross.

 

[paul1609]

That depends on how you measure the connection times at Kings Cross and Stevenage.

I'd imagine that the fastest connection for a fit able bodied person with no luggage and a walk on ticket could still be a train from Gatwick to Victoria, Victoria line to Kings Cross, and train from there to Edinburgh.

Might just about beat the 1116 - 1641 timing of the Thameslink / Lumo connection at Stevenage although not by much. 1124 - 1643 in the other direction. 1130 from Edinburgh might just about get someone on the 1605 from Victoria with a 1547 arrival at Kings Cross.

I was talking about official connections. I believe that the one off cross platform Thames link./ Lumo was about 50 mins quicker than anything LNER & connections could offer.