Elizabeth Line now has most cancellations

[800001]

Could easily have been a combination of the two!

As per this thread, today’s issue is another broken rail / cracked crossing.

Stockley Bridge Junction. MTR Maidenhead suspended, Heathrow’s should be running as booked.
20mph ESR on the down main currently being boarded up, once boarded DM will reopen.

 

[CastlebarKeith]

l remember in the '50s, coal trains, long loose coupled freights, lone engines, Smithfield freights etc

There was NEVER this sort of shambles

 

[coppercapped]

l remember in the '50s, coal trains, long loose coupled freights, lone engines, Smithfield freights etc

There was NEVER this sort of shambles

There was never this traffic density.

 

[DC1989]

TFL have today published their intention to ask central government for funding to buy an extra 5 745's and increase trains calling OOC to either 18tph or 24tph

Though I thought OOC was already going to get 24tph when opened

 

[Sleepy]

TFL have today published their intention to ask central government for funding to buy an extra 5 745's and increase trains calling OOC to either 18tph or 24tph

Though I thought OOC was already going to get 24tph when opened

GA have some spare 720's available ! I'll get my coat

 

[Taunton]

Not great again this morning - hope you made it!

As you may imagine from other posts, a chaos. Ran on time from Canary Wharf to Ealing, then managed to lose 20 minutes stop-start (mostly stop) to West Drayton. But that wasn't too bad. Coming the other way the stranded passengers on the Up Relief platforms were in profusion - hugely. It looked like they just couldn't get into those trains which were running, which were coming in rammed and grossly late.

Not apparent why the Up service should be so disorganised when it was apparently the Down Main that was closed at Hayes. Even little old Hanwell station platform, a nicely-done heritage architectural station until the Liz Line Lot slammed their roundels and stuff all in front of everything without any design appreciation whatsoever, normally quiet, was packed from end to end, possibly a first for there. Likewise Acton, Ealing, etc.

If the issue on the Down Main today was at Stockley Junction, where the airport spur turns off, there have been works there for a week or more, a TSR on the Down Main I believe, substantial lineside lighting, etc. So what got done last night? Yes, it was "cold". It was about 0 degrees overnight. No ice. Can't we handle that nowadays?

I saw the GW service to Slough, then all stops to Didcot, was completely cancelled, all day. Strangely, when I came this way last week it was the same, and also all this week. probably the new way to service recovery.

Sat opposite from me were a couple of staff from seemingly some 'call centre' in the locality. I think I, like most others on here, are fortunate not to be in that sort of environment. They were clearly concerned what their 'supervisor' (word used loosely) would have to say if they weren't in and working on the dot of 9 o'clock. They had set off in more than sufficient time. But that's what this sort of slapdash, we'll run the service if everything's OK, attitude means to the patrons. Maybe they got there at 9.05 and were told to go home with no money. This is the sort of thing this constant hey-ho attitude about punctuality leads to with the service customers.

Did notice while stopped at Paddington Low level that the nonsense on the platform screens in the Core has still not been fixed - this has been going on for nearly a year now. On the eastbound it was 1st - Shenfield 2 minutes; 2nd - Abbey Wood 2 minutes; 3rd - Shenfield 3 minutes. Which is clearly impossible. Seems it's just incapable of integrating the timetable and the actual running. On my return, at Bond Street, the first two trains were consistently blank, only 3rd and 4th were shown. A novel approach. The staff were clearly eyeballing the destination indicator of incomings, and announcing it on the PA as soon as it emerged from the headwall. Is this 2023 or 1823?

 

[rob.rjt]

I can understand the dropping of the GWR Didcot service to give some breathing space on the Down Main, but I don't get the cancellation of all the Elizabeth Line Maidenhead terminators all day. That cancellation made sense whilst the DM was closed, but for the rest of the day there didn't seem to be a need to keep space on the Reliefs.

 

[800001]

I can understand the dropping of the GWR Didcot service to give some breathing space on the Down Main, but I don't get the cancellation of all the Elizabeth Line Maidenhead terminators all day. That cancellation made sense whilst the DM was closed, but for the rest of the day there didn't seem to be a need to keep space on the Reliefs.

Would the 20mph ESR over the broken rail had a big impact performance wise?
Losing Maidenhead terminater as well as Didcot gave that little bit more breathing space?

 

[Taunton]

Returning from Slough, a 6/hr service (2/hr GWR fast, 2/hr from Maidenhead, 2/hr from Reading) was down to just the Reading trains. This at a time when the Mains were no longer weaving onto the Reliefs. I did notice at Bond Street westbound a gap of more than half an hour to beyond Hayes. Many Core services terminating at Paddington.

A lot of freights seemed to be running.

 

[Acton1991]

Commuting in from Acton today, trains were coming in completely full with many passengers being left on the platform. Even more frustrating when the Reading services whizz past not stopping.

 

[Somewhere]

Does each train on the Elizabeth Line count as two trains like it does on Thameslink? Because it runs from one side of London to the other?
So when one train is cancelled, it counts as two for performance?

 

[miklcct]

Does each train on the Elizabeth Line count as two trains like it does on Thameslink? Because it runs from one side of London to the other?
So when one train is cancelled, it counts as two for performance?

Isn't it the number of station calls cancelled used for performance?

 

[Joliver]

If the issue on the Down Main today was at Stockley Junction, where the airport spur turns off, there have been works there for a week or more, a TSR on the Down Main I believe, substantial lineside lighting, etc. So what got done last night? Yes, it was "cold". It was about 0 degrees overnight. No ice. Can't we handle that nowadays?

The down main was closed from Southall West to Dolphin Junction. I was 30 late into Reading this morning. Pretty much stop/start from EB to West Drayton. A lot of traffic to signal down the Relief line. Hence all the delays

 

[trebor79]

Did notice while stopped at Paddington Low level that the nonsense on the platform screens in the Core has still not been fixed - this has been going on for nearly a year now. On the eastbound it was 1st - Shenfield 2 minutes; 2nd - Abbey Wood 2 minutes; 3rd - Shenfield 3 minutes. Which is clearly impossible. Seems it's just incapable of integrating the timetable and the actual running. On my return, at Bond Street, the first two trains were consistently blank, only 3rd and 4th were shown. A novel approach. The staff were clearly eyeballing the destination indicator of incomings, and announcing it on the PA as soon as it emerged from the headwall. Is this 2023 or 1823?

Last time I used it the displays were showing nonsense like "1st Abbey Wood 5 minutes; 2nd Shenfield 3 minutes"

 

[Horizon22]

I can understand the dropping of the GWR Didcot service to give some breathing space on the Down Main, but I don't get the cancellation of all the Elizabeth Line Maidenhead terminators all day. That cancellation made sense whilst the DM was closed, but for the rest of the day there didn't seem to be a need to keep space on the Reliefs.

It wasn’t all day - they started resuming in the evening. Ultimately that is down to NR Control if they refuse to let the services run, i think originally it was to ensure a steady service on the main line & the speed restriction wasn’t causing major congestion.

Last time I used it the displays were showing nonsense like "1st Abbey Wood 5 minutes; 2nd Shenfield 3 minutes"

These screens simply cannot distinguish delays from outside of the central section; as soon as they reach Westbourne Park and Stratford they somewhat correct. If a train is running very very late though, it will continue to think it is coming imminently.

It’s a major design flaw since being scoped by the Crossrail project; who knew there’d be an integrated service running… Might get fixed next year. Might.

Does each train on the Elizabeth Line count as two trains like it does on Thameslink? Because it runs from one side of London to the other?
So when one train is cancelled, it counts as two for performance?

Eh? It’s the same logic as any TOC would have in that train A forms train B going back the same direction (unless diagrammed otherwise). A cancellation is a single cancellation.

Of course though if a train doesn’t run to Abbey Wood or Shenfield it can’t then return - unless reinstated back from a depot or sidings etc.

Commuting in from Acton today, trains were coming in completely full with many passengers being left on the platform. Even more frustrating when the Reading services whizz past not stopping.

Often very busy themselves too of course.

 

[Somewhere]

Eh? It’s the same logic as any TOC would have in that train A forms train B going back the same direction (unless diagrammed otherwise). A cancellation is a single cancellation.

Not on Thameslink its not. A train from Bedford to Brighton, for instance, as its two service groups joined together, counts as two cancellations for performance purposes (even though its only one physical train).
I was asking whether this is the same for the Elizabeth Line, for a Shenfield to Reading train, for example, so that one physical train being cancelled counts as two in the statistics

 

[Taunton]

The east end of the Core to Abbey Wood yesterday seemed to be running reasonably well, but with a good number terminating at Paddington.

There were however some 10 or more trains on Old Oak Common depot sidings in the evening peak.

 

[Acton1991]

Lots of delays and cancellations again this morning. Can someone explain the main issue and why it's taking so long to get solved?

 

[OneOfThe48]

Not on Thameslink its not. A train from Bedford to Brighton, for instance, as its two service groups joined together, counts as two cancellations for performance purposes (even though its only one physical train).
I was asking whether this is the same for the Elizabeth Line, for a Shenfield to Reading train, for example, so that one physical train being cancelled counts as two in the statistics

Is that why? Are they two service groups? They seem to have just the one train ID and one headcode.

The double counting of the Thameslinks has always baffled me and seems silly on the face of it.

 

[Purple Train]

Not on Thameslink its not. A train from Bedford to Brighton, for instance, as its two service groups joined together, counts as two cancellations for performance purposes (even though its only one physical train).
I was asking whether this is the same for the Elizabeth Line, for a Shenfield to Reading train, for example, so that one physical train being cancelled counts as two in the statistics

The only services that could be counted like that are the occasional Shenfield-Heathrow services (2tph if I remember correctly), and I don't believe they are.

 

[Horizon22]

Lots of delays and cancellations again this morning. Can someone explain the main issue and why it's taking so long to get solved?

Length of delay? Looks like trains were up to 60 minutes late. Then trying to recover from a 2 platform terminus with all the driver break requirements is a tall order.

Looks like a combination of factors came together here, primarily a broken train at Paddington.

Not on Thameslink its not. A train from Bedford to Brighton, for instance, as its two service groups joined together, counts as two cancellations for performance purposes (even though its only one physical train).
I was asking whether this is the same for the Elizabeth Line, for a Shenfield to Reading train, for example, so that one physical train being cancelled counts as two in the statistics

Are you sure about that? That’s not a way performance is calculated for PPM / RT or any other metric.

 

[Somewhere]

Are you sure about that? That’s not a way performance is calculated for PPM / RT or any other metric.

I'm positive. Before Thameslink, they would have been two separate service groups (Midland Mainline/ Sussex Coast / Great Northern or whatever). So when all the trains were stuck together and put through the core, they still count as two. Don't forget for a while Bedford to Sevenoaks trains actually changed operator at City Thameslink (Thameslink to Southeastern)

 

[Horizon22]

I'm positive. Before Thameslink, they would have been two separate service groups (Midland Mainline/ Sussex Coast / Great Northern or whatever). So when all the trains were stuck together and put through the core, they still count as two. Don't forget for a while Bedford to Sevenoaks trains actually changed operator at City Thameslink (Thameslink to Southeastern)

Interesting. Service groups is obviously different to train UIDs so since the trains have been timetabled for many years as once, it seems odd they are duplicated.

 

[Somewhere]

Is that why? Are they two service groups? They seem to have just the one train ID and one headcode.

The double counting of the Thameslinks has always baffled me and seems silly on the face of it.

I don't know if that's why. That's why I was asking.
Double counting of Thameslinks isn't silly - if you think about it, everyone would have cried what a fiddle it was if they weren't double counted

 

[Taunton]

Elizabeth Line constant multiple problems now making it into the national media (yet again). Article here:

MSN

www.msn.com

It does seem to be just the same issues again and again. Infrastructure problems on the GWML have been done to death elsewhere here, but actually seem to be increasing. "Broken down train at Paddington" is too generic, but in fact seems to be "Train cannot make the signalling transition eastbound at Paddington".

Am I correct that the westbound signalling transition at Stratford seems to be relatively trouble-free in comparison. Why the difference?

 

[trebor79]

Elizabeth Line constant multiple problems now making it into the national media (yet again). Article here:

MSN

www.msn.com

It does seem to be just the same issues again and again. Infrastructure problems on the GWML have been done to death elsewhere here, but actually seem to be increasing. "Broken down train at Paddington" is too generic, but in fact seems to be "Train cannot make the signalling transition eastbound at Paddington".

Am I correct that the westbound signalling transition at Stratford seems to be relatively trouble-free in comparison. Why the difference?

Presumably "switch off ETCS and use traditional signals" is an easier transition that "switch on ETCS and hope it works".

 

[greatkingrat]

I'm positive. Before Thameslink, they would have been two separate service groups (Midland Mainline/ Sussex Coast / Great Northern or whatever). So when all the trains were stuck together and put through the core, they still count as two. Don't forget for a while Bedford to Sevenoaks trains actually changed operator at City Thameslink (Thameslink to Southeastern)

Does it actually make a difference though? 1 of 100 or 2 of 200 cancelled works out the same.

 

[DC1989]

Do other trains break down as much as these? One broken down train yesterday caused so much havoc normal service hadn't resumed until the late afternoon

When I used to get the central line every day I honestly can't remember being stuck in a tunnel for half an hour due to a train in front breaking down but it happens almost daily for the Liz

 

[Somewhere]

Does it actually make a difference though? 1 of 100 or 2 of 200 cancelled works out the same.

That's true. I suppose it depends how the statistics are being interpreted

 

[Snow1964]

Looks like Elizabeth Line is now 4th bottom by percentage (ORR table 4.3) July-September data released 7th December 2023

Elizabeth line 5.2% cancelled
Northern Trains 5.6% cancelled
Grand Central 6.7% cancelled
Cross Country 7.5% cancelled

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/1kdfjw4u/performance_stats_release_jul-sep-2023.pdf