EMR Liverpool base

[Bovverboy]

I'm a bit out of touch with what's going on at EMR, could someone enlighten me in respect of what happened to the idea for EMR to base stock and crews at Liverpool?

 

[jamesst]

I'm a bit out of touch with what's going on at EMR, could someone enlighten me in respect of what happened to the idea for EMR to base stock and crews at Liverpool?

It was thought that the Liverpool to Nottingham route was going over to TPE at one point and the idea was stopped. It's since stayed with EMR but the plan was never resurrected

 

[Bovverboy]

Appreciate the response. I'm surprised that the plan hasn't been resurrected, I've always thought it bizarre that EMR (and EMT before it) have never had a base in the Liverpool area.

 

[jamesst]

It would save the crews having to come from Nottingham aswell.

 

[Watershed]

EMR started recruitment for a Liverpool depot but the DfT kyboshed the idea in their cost-cutting craze before it came to fruition. It's absolutely bonkers, it would save a lot of inefficient ECS running and would allow earlier eastbound services and later westbound services.

 

[Class 170101]

Though note the ECS moves go via various diversionary routes for route knowledge purposes

 

[Tomnick]

Pretty sure it was binned because the DfT and/or EMR realised that the cost of running a depot (physical infrastructure, managers, spare cover which is often inherently inefficient at a small depot, etc..) would exceed any savings that'd result from more efficient diagramming (noting also the value of the ECSs for route knowledge retention). Pretty much how the current situation came to be.

 

[irish_rail]

Surely the Liverpool to Sheffield bit should be covered by TPE drivers, in much the same way as FNW Holyhead drivers used to drive the intercity trains on behalf of Virgin between Holyhead and Crewe until the early 00s. Only TPE Liverpool drivers need learn the traction and route and overall id hazard a guess that it'd be cheaper than having Nottingham drivers having to do the very early /late stuff.

 

[Tomnick]

Surely the Liverpool to Sheffield bit should be covered by TPE drivers, in much the same way as FNW Holyhead drivers used to drive the intercity trains on behalf of Virgin between Holyhead and Crewe until the early 00s. Only TPE Liverpool drivers need learn the traction and route and overall id hazard a guess that it'd be cheaper than having Nottingham drivers having to do the very early /late stuff.

In a sensible world, the south side of TPE and the regional side of EMR would be one and the same anyway (but not with neither side signing past Sheffield in either direction please!)

 

[warwickshire]

Surely the Liverpool to Sheffield bit should be covered by TPE drivers, in much the same way as FNW Holyhead drivers used to drive the intercity trains on behalf of Virgin between Holyhead and Crewe until the early 00s. Only TPE Liverpool drivers need learn the traction and route and overall id hazard a guess that it'd be cheaper than having Nottingham drivers having to do the very early /late stuff.

However a small issue, TPE guards also, hence TPE to run service, because the EMR guards would likely be hidden ie Nottingham based guards especially if overnight stay Liverpool. More than 12 hours. Don't forget Since BR split up around 1994 a lot of top link guards at quite few locations at the time become intercity west coast guards working those services only.
Hence Holyhead for Intercity West coast and Virgin etc becoming and retaining a Guards depot only so no issue there work one Holyhead to Crewe, then pass back to Holyhead asleep in the FNW train, nice for them at the time. Ie the guards. Easy life. One leg journey.
However with the Drivers it was contracted out like other services were elsewhere.
Ie a FNW Driver would work a Intercity one to Crewe.
Then would work a FNW service back to Holyhead. Unlike the guard who could relax and pass back. However at Liverpool it wouldn't work TPE Driver only. Either TPE guards and drivers or EMR guards and drivers as well based at Liverpool. in reality. But in hindsight a few other locations have small depots, so it could work out well for EMR to have one at Liverpool for drivers and guards.

 

[Bovverboy]

Pretty sure it was binned because the DfT and/or EMR realised that the cost of running a depot (physical infrastructure, managers, spare cover which is often inherently inefficient at a small depot, etc..) would exceed any savings that'd result from more efficient diagramming (noting also the value of the ECSs for route knowledge retention). Pretty much how the current situation came to be.

By that logic EMR shouldn't have a base at Norwich.

 

[Tomnick]

By that logic EMR shouldn't have a base at Norwich.

Glad you've mentioned that – I was going to, but forgot.

As I understand it, the same logic would have applied to Norwich, but for the fact that several signal boxes on the way closed on nights, so it wouldn't have been feasible to run the dead early/late empties.

 

[TheBigD]

Ely to Norwich signalboxes used to be closed on nights. Was late 1990s that it went to being open 24hrs.
Leicester to Peterborough line signalboxes were closed Sunday night in to Monday morning.
Nottingham to Grantham line boxes were also shut on nights.

2 of those lines have subsequently been modernised and are open 24/7, but Leicester to Peterborough line boxes still shut on Saturday and Sunday nights.

 

[WAB]

Surely the Liverpool to Sheffield bit should be covered by TPE drivers, in much the same way as FNW Holyhead drivers used to drive the intercity trains on behalf of Virgin between Holyhead and Crewe until the early 00s. Only TPE Liverpool drivers need learn the traction and route and overall id hazard a guess that it'd be cheaper than having Nottingham drivers having to do the very early /late stuff.

My understanding was that it was the paperwork which put paid to such arrangements - insurance, safety cases, diagramming and rostering processes etc. The effort outweighed the savings.

I've bored my colleagues to tears over this little hobby horse of mine already, but I'll say it here too. In a world where the word from the top is to optimise diagrams and rosters to oblivion, having small depots covering extremities of TOC networks and stupidly long ECS or taxi runs to get drivers back to home depots seems to be very counter-intuitive.