Eurostar Disney Direct services 2023

[EAD]

I think there are more fundamental issues at play in terms of viability of the services commercially. Part of that also involves the UK government's position around controls and the need to staff them in France when Border Force has been under staffed for a number of years already.

Undoubtedly there will be teething issues as you say Chester, but the real question will be how prepared non-EEA/CH citizens will be and how much of a pinch point first biometrics will be if lots of first timers arrive at once like at school holidays. I am sure it will settle down and I don't share the view re France and the border and am sure it will be fine. It is for a border officer to make the decision on entry and as we all know including in the UK some are quick and others more thorough.

Countries are moving towards pre travel authorisations and EES and ETIAS is part of updating the Schengen area's systems in line with that for non residents. Of course as it is the swipe/scan checks you against the Schengen Information System for any markers (as well as local databases, just as the UK does). One thing that I always find quite amusing in passing given the biometrics debate is that the EU standard in passports is face and index finger prints, but the UK had an opt out for finger prints (along with Ireland from memory).

I expect we will be having a similar discussion when the UK decides to launch its equivalent.

 

[StephenHunter]

We are launching an equivalent, aren't we?

 

[EAD]

We are launching an equivalent, aren't we?

Yes should be in for 2024 under Home Office plans

 

[Chester1]

We are launching an equivalent, aren't we?

Yes should be in for 2024 under Home Office plans

It shouldn't be a major problem for Eurostar. It is likely to cause some issues but (if they restart) Disneyland to London trains would be used primarily by British tourists. Lille and Rotterdam might have some issues as the smallest regular service stations. South of France trains will have hopefully restarted by then but like Disneyland services most northbound passengers will be British tourists returning home.

I think there are more fundamental issues at play in terms of viability of the services commercially. Part of that also involves the UK government's position around controls and the need to staff them in France when Border Force has been under staffed for a number of years already.

Undoubtedly there will be teething issues as you say Chester, but the real question will be how prepared non-EEA/CH citizens will be and how much of a pinch point first biometrics will be if lots of first timers arrive at once like at school holidays. I am sure it will settle down and I don't share the view re France and the border and am sure it will be fine. It is for a border officer to make the decision on entry and as we all know including in the UK some are quick and others more thorough.

Countries are moving towards pre travel authorisations and EES and ETIAS is part of updating the Schengen area's systems in line with that for non residents. Of course as it is the swipe/scan checks you against the Schengen Information System for any markers (as well as local databases, just as the UK does). One thing that I always find quite amusing in passing given the biometrics debate is that the EU standard in passports is face and index finger prints, but the UK had an opt out for finger prints (along with Ireland from memory).

I expect we will be having a similar discussion when the UK decides to launch its equivalent.

The Eurostar model is better from a security perspective as people have to get through border controls before being able to claim asylum in the UK. The US has immigration and customs pre clearance at Dublin and Shannon Airports. They would like to have them at Heathrow, Gatwick and Manchester but so far neither the airports or the airlines have been unwilling to pay extra to cover the costs. Passengers generally like getting the hassle out the way before flight and landing as a domestic passenger but as always there is a price. In a better political climate maybe one day there will be UK border controls at the largest Schengen airports and vice versa.

 

[EAD]

It shouldn't be a major problem for Eurostar. It is likely to cause some issues but (if they restart) Disneyland to London trains would be used primarily by British tourists. Lille and Rotterdam might have some issues as the smallest regular service stations. South of France trains will have hopefully restarted by then but like Disneyland services most northbound passengers will be British tourists returning home.



The Eurostar model is better from a security perspective as people have to get through border controls before being able to claim asylum in the UK. The US has immigration and customs pre clearance at Dublin and Shannon Airports. They would like to have them at Heathrow, Gatwick and Manchester but so far neither the airports or the airlines have been unwilling to pay extra to cover the costs. Passengers generally like getting the hassle out the way before flight and landing as a domestic passenger but as always there is a price. In a better political climate maybe one day there will be UK border controls at the largest Schengen airports and vice versa.

I wondered when asylum would come up, which is a completely distinct point and has nothing to do with legal rights to enter a country: you can claim it and it is for the receiving state to assess that. I suggest we leave that there as it is well OT and let's hope none of us find ourselves in that position.

The whole basis of the Eurostar model is the Canterbury agreement and then Le Touquet accord. That provides for juxtaposed border controls on channel routes. That is unique but not without issues - it also of course is not how most of the world works nor indeed how it works in aviation, but all carriers are responsible for API and checking documents before bording. US Pre clearance in Ireland is a limited exception and not one the US want to expand.

I just can't see that other countries are going to wholesale allow the setting up of a UK border at their airport en masse - can you imagine asking that the other way round? The Irish pre clearance and UK channel routes set up are pretty unique in that regard. Practically there is little space - NB the UK does not do proper exit checks but others do so you need to emigrate Schengen then enter UK (look how cramped that it is at Eurostar terminals).

 

[jon0844]

Yes should be in for 2024 under Home Office plans

How late and over budget do you think it will be?

 

[EAD]

How late and over budget do you think it will be?

Your guess is as good as mine as a member of the public, but yes these large gov IT projects tend to go that way. Meant to start testing in 2023 I believe.

 

[Chester1]

I wondered when asylum would come up, which is a completely distinct point and has nothing to do with legal rights to enter a country: you can claim it and it is for the receiving state to assess that. I suggest we leave that there as it is well OT and let's hope none of us find ourselves in that position.

The whole basis of the Eurostar model is the Canterbury agreement and then Le Touquet accord. That provides for juxtaposed border controls on channel routes. That is unique but not without issues - it also of course is not how most of the world works nor indeed how it works in aviation, but all carriers are responsible for API and checking documents before bording. US Pre clearance in Ireland is a limited exception and not one the US want to expand.

I just can't see that other countries are going to wholesale allow the setting up of a UK border at their airport en masse - can you imagine asking that the other way round? The Irish pre clearance and UK channel routes set up are pretty unique in that regard. Practically there is little space - NB the UK does not do proper exit checks but others do so you need to emigrate Schengen then enter UK (look how cramped that it is at Eurostar terminals).

Asylum is a seperate issue legally but not practically. The Disneyland procedures have not been allowed for other services. If or when the services return Disneyland might be expected to pay for the same procedures as the Ski service. This could potentially change the viability of the service.

US Pre Clearance in Ireland is only an exception in Europe. Pre clearance is available in Canada, UAE (Abu Dhabi), Aruba, Bahamas and Bermuda. Manchester and Heathrow were shortlisted by US government in 2015. Manchester Airport's rebuild of terminal 2 includes provision to segregate part of the terminal for US pre clearance passengers. Its gone quiet since the pandemic. I agree UK and Schengen Airports having pre clearance could become a mess but it would work for a handful of large airports with a very high number of passengers between the UK and one EU member state.

 

[EAD]

Asylum is a seperate issue legally but not practically. The Disneyland procedures have not been allowed for other services. If or when the services return Disneyland might be expected to pay for the same procedures as the Ski service. This could potentially change the viability of the service.

US Pre Clearance in Ireland is only an exception in Europe. Pre clearance is available in Canada, UAE (Abu Dhabi), Aruba, Bahamas and Bermuda. Manchester and Heathrow were shortlisted by US government in 2015. Manchester Airport's rebuild of terminal 2 includes provision to segregate part of the terminal for US pre clearance passengers. Its gone quiet since the pandemic. I agree UK and Schengen Airports having pre clearance could become a mess but it would work for a handful of large airports with a very high number of passengers between the UK and one EU member state.

I am not going to be drawn on asylum, sorry as that is a complex and different topic.

Apples and Oranges spring to mind re US pre clearance - they reflect flows and demand for a specific set of circumstances for the US and those countriws.

The last point is a but of an exceptionalism for the UK argument though if I may say. Why as a country/airport where you have one clear border for all departures on your territory heading ex Schengen are you going to favour one of those nations with a post exit entry booth? Put simply it is not their problem. Also how and why would you favour one country? The larger the airport the more extensive list of non Schengen countries it will serve beyond the UK too. It also strikes me as economically impractical - HO has no desire or money to staff these and it needs agreement given it is on the territory of another country. It can barely fully staff its current obligations as it is. France/Belgium (for EST at Brussels) is v different as it is Schengen to one country.

This is along way from the original topic!

 

[Chester1]

I am not going to be drawn on asylum, sorry as that is a complex and different topic.

Apples and Oranges spring to mind re US pre clearance - they reflect flows and demand for a specific set of circumstances for the US and those countriws.

The last point is a but of an exceptionalism for the UK argument though if I may say. Why as a country/airport where you have one clear border for all departures on your territory heading ex Schengen are you going to favour one of those nations with a post exit entry booth? Put simply it is not their problem. Also how and why would you favour one country? The larger the airport the more extensive list of non Schengen countries it will serve beyond the UK too. It also strikes me as economically impractical - HO has no desire or money to staff these and it needs agreement given it is on the territory of another country. It can barely fully staff its current obligations as it is. France/Belgium (for EST at Brussels) is v different as it is Schengen to one country.

This is along way from the original topic!

Its not that off topic considering Disneyland service is being either temporarily suspended or cancelled permanently because of the lack of adequate border facilities! Your point on why would they have facilities for UK border force? There are European airports where all or nearly all non schengen flights are to the UK. Its not too much of a stretch to add additonal facilities at half a dozen airports if airlines are willing to pay extra cost. The cost of US pre clearance is paid by the airlines through higher charges. Eurostar didn't have a choice other than to have juxtaposed border controls but when its practical its a superior system. On balance its an advantage to Eurostar over airlines. It makes limited services less practical but improves the core service. Its great to turn up at St Pancras or Gare du Nord after 2 and a half hours on train and walk straight out.

The big border question with Disneyland is whether the suspension will result in losing its unusual status. It would be a shame if Eurostar tries to relaunch it in 2024 or 2025 and is told it has to pick between the Alps or South of France setup.

 

[AdamWW]

Its great to turn up at St Pancras or Gare du Nord after 2 and a half hours on train and walk straight out.

Paris yes (and once I even found myself arriving at a 'regular' platform not one of the segregated Eurostar ones) but it's not quite straight out at St Pancras is it? Having got to the end of the platform you then have to go downstairs to walk past the stern looking people carefully studying arriving passengers, through some kind of detector archway then the customs area before finally being allowed out into the station.

 

[EAD]

Its not that off topic considering Disneyland service is being either temporarily suspended or cancelled permanently because of the lack of adequate border facilities! Your point on why would they have facilities for UK border force? There are European airports where all or nearly all non schengen flights are to the UK. Its not too much of a stretch to add additonal facilities at half a dozen airports if airlines are willing to pay extra cost. The cost of US pre clearance is paid by the airlines through higher charges. Eurostar didn't have a choice other than to have juxtaposed border controls but when its practical its a superior system. On balance its an advantage to Eurostar over airlines. It makes limited services less practical but improves the core service. Its great to turn up at St Pancras or Gare du Nord after 2 and a half hours on train and walk straight out.

The big border question with Disneyland is whether the suspension will result in losing its unusual status. It would be a shame if Eurostar tries to relaunch it in 2024 or 2025 and is told it has to pick between the Alps or South of France setup.

And why should those airports/airlines and countries pay for a UK border point on their territory? Sure it is "nice" for travellers heading that way, but really quite detached from the reality of the situation unless you view everything as needing to help out the UK at any cost. The UK border is not their concern, and as it is the airlines face significant fines from the Home Office for not having confirmed a right to enter the UK at the point of departure where it results in that person being denied entry on arrival in the UK.

If you cannot see this beyond it is great when there are only two countries involved in the border (and the juxtaposition re the channel has a specific history)/ it would suit me so do it so let's do so, then I think our exchange has run its course. US pre-clearance is also pretty unique also for reasons of ties/flows between those countries and how the US does arrivals including connections compared to most of the world - how would your border post deal with e.g. someone connecting in the UK at LHR since they don't enter the UK for immigration purposes? Would they just get waved by on proof, what if the onward boarding pass has not yet been issued so needing a trip to the desk at connections (not that uncommon)? Or is it only for secondary point to point flows, in which case how would the economics to work?

Don't get me wrong - I am all for discussion and ideas, but just don't see how this stacks up beyond an internet forum I am afriad.

 

[bspahh]

Maybe I'm paranoid, but if I'm carrying a passport, I'm checking my pockets ten times an hour to make sure that I don't lose it.

You should get some trousers from Rohan. They have a hidden zipped pocket, where you can keep a passport securely. Some of the designs look like you have just walked off a mountain, but they have others that are less showy. They are hard wearing, machine washable and dry quickly. They aren't cheap but are worth a look in the sales. On Ebay you can get them quite a lot cheaper.

 

[Chester1]

And why should those airports/airlines and countries pay for a UK border point on their territory? Sure it is "nice" for travellers heading that way, but really quite detached from the reality of the situation unless you view everything as needing to help out the UK at any cost. The UK border is not their concern, and as it is the airlines face significant fines from the Home Office for not having confirmed a right to enter the UK at the point of departure where it results in that person being denied entry on arrival in the UK.

If you cannot see this beyond it is great when there are only two countries involved in the border (and the juxtaposition re the channel has a specific history)/ it would suit me so do it so let's do so, then I think our exchange has run its course. US pre-clearance is also pretty unique also for reasons of ties/flows between those countries and how the US does arrivals including connections compared to most of the world - how would your border post deal with e.g. someone connecting in the UK at LHR since they don't enter the UK for immigration purposes? Would they just get waved by on proof, what if the onward boarding pass has not yet been issued so needing a trip to the desk at connections (not that uncommon)? Or is it only for secondary point to point flows, in which case how would the economics to work?

Don't get me wrong - I am all for discussion and ideas, but just don't see how this stacks up beyond an internet forum I am afriad.

The most obvious airports would be those heavily serving British tourists. How does US deal with a Dublin to New York passenger flying onto Canada? Are they banned from flights using pre clearance?

I don't think its a matter of bending over backwards to help the UK, I think it would be a commercial advantage competing for British tourists. It might be that for short haul flights this advantage is too small to be worth paying the associated costs. I think we are in a stage where no new arrangements are politically possible for either our government or the EU but that will change eventually. Currently Eurostar has an advantage that flights between UK and France do not have.

 

[EAD]

You do know the US requires any passenger to immigrate on arrival even if directly connecting to a non-US destination, right? It is an outlier in not offering air side direct international connection, so in your example as with all US bound pax, they are forced to be treated as entering the US, which is another reason the US pre clearance set up is unique to the US.

 

[ValleyLines142]

So the UK will be isolated from the low-IQ culture of the venue which is Disney World, There is a God in Heaven!

So then why is it one of the most visited theme parks in the world? Do you realise how much money has been made from there?

This is a massive blow, especially for families with lots of luggage and pushchairs who will probably consider flying or even driving now. I just hope that there's a good connection at Lille Europe to accommodate for the loss!

 

[jon0844]

So then why is it one of the most visited theme parks in the world? Do you realise how much money has been made from there?

This is a massive blow, especially for families with lots of luggage and pushchairs who will probably consider flying or even driving now. I just hope that there's a good connection at Lille Europe to accommodate for the loss!

Lille is a fine connection one way (albeit a pretty dull station where I am sure young kids will be super happy between changes), but it's pretty horrid the other way - especially when your train from Disneyland is delayed and you miss the Eurostar connection and now have to wait to see if you'll get on the next one (and given you've been at the park all day, it's not like there are loads more trains running to the UK so you might end up stuck overnight).

No, I think people will probably fly (despite that being arguably even more messy, go figure) or not go.

 

[AdamWW]

So then why is it one of the most visited theme parks in the world? Do you realise how much money has been made from there?

This is a massive blow, especially for families with lots of luggage and pushchairs who will probably consider flying or even driving now. I just hope that there's a good connection at Lille Europe to accommodate for the loss!

My guess would be that most families wouldn't even think of the train in the first place any more than they would for travelling within the UK.

Personally I never thought I'd want to set foot in a Disney theme park but on a work trip that took me near Disneyworld with some spare time at the weekend it seemed silly not to give the theme parks a try. I was very impressed particularly with the attention to detail. In one park there was a train that took you to an outlying part you couldn't otherwise access. At the back of the train was a rusty tail lamp with the legend "BR(W)" clearly visible.

 

[island]

I suspect the truth is probably that they're making far too much money on the core Paris service to bother with the Disneyland trains. It's an extra hour on top of the standard Gare du Nord service, so two extra hours on a return service. There are direct trains from Lille Europe to Marne-La-Vallée on SNCF, and the connections are quite reasonable.

I think this is the correct answer and the border control issues are a red-herring. EES checks would only be required on departure from Marne-la-Vallée–Chessy towards London and the station has plenty of space for queues, they could just make passengers arrive earlier.

There was a similar arrangement for the direct ski trains. French border staff presence in Bourg St Maurice and Moutiers and all UK border checks were carried out on arrival in St Pancras. The trains and that arrangement stopped with COVID though and clearly didn’t restart after Brexit. I’m surprised it continued with Disneyland given the lack of a refugee return treaty….

No, that's not correct. There was UK Border Force presence at Bourg St Maurice and Moûtiers (but not Aime La Plagne, which was therefore a set down only stop). A very few ski trains ran in 2021 – they started a couple of days before the French closed the borders last December. They are slated to return again this year although will only be sold as package trips by a specialist ski company.

Considering the date chosen I’d strongly suspect this is linked to the planned EES start date in June - I wonder whether this is requested by PAF (the French border police) as on first entry after that date everyone will have fingerprints taken which will slow everything down, so focusing on the larger hubs where this process can be managed efficiently - particularly whilst they find their feet with it in a live environment and deal with the inevitable teething issues - does make some sense.

As I understand it facial recognition will be used instead on subsequent entries which will make EU entry feel more like pre-Brexit and allow e-passport gate use again for UK citizens - after a significant subset have entered once I can see Disney trains returning again as the logistics will have been ironed out and lessen the pressure on PAF more generally.

For the reasons mentioned above, I think this is a red-herring.

The most obvious airports would be those heavily serving British tourists. How does US deal with a Dublin to New York passenger flying onto Canada? Are they banned from flights using pre clearance?

Of course not, they fly just like anyone else and are processed for entry to the USA just like anyone else on the flight. They'll need an ESTA or visa.

 

[AdamWW]

Of course not, they fly just like anyone else and are processed for entry to the USA just like anyone else on the flight. They'll need an ESTA or visa.

I think it was mentioned above that unlike the majority of countries, the US requires passengers to go through immigration even if they're just changing planes for a flight to another country (or getting off their plane while it's refueled).

 

[BluePenguin]

I don't think they'll ever reopen as well. Eurostar doesn't need them, the Channel Tunnel doesn't need or want a local cross-channel metro service, so what's the point in opening them?

Because not everyone lives in London and those of us in Kent do not want a 130 mile return journey on HS1 just to travel through the channel tunnel

Travelling the entire length of HS1 on Southeastern then again in reverse on Eurostar is not very desirable lol

Seriously, people do drive to Ebbsfleet and Ashford. Disabled people, families and various other people benefited from the stops. They will never be as busy as a London terminal although nor will many penultimate stations that still receive many stops a day around the country

As much as I wish to disagree with you, because I’d love for them to reopen, you have a good point. Ideally they need government subsidy to keep them open, as they do bring benefits, but I can’t imagine this current government wanting to help them at all. A shame they wasted that £10million updating Ashford for the new trains.

A bit off topic, but I do feel it’s a real shame there is no longer any public transport option from Kent to the continent.

Exactly my point. Without a car there is no way to cross the channel apart from flying or a tedious double back rail journey on HS1. Taking a car on the ferry or using the limited foot passenger boats is not practical

 

[Bikeman78]

Last month I arrived at St Pancras from Paris about half an hour after the train from Marne-la-Vallée had come in. Passengers (many, obviously, with small children) off that train were still queued all the way along the arrival hall and up the ramp to the platform as they waited their turn to be processed by a whole four immigration officials. Presumably, there was/is no UK Border Force representation at Marne-la-Vallée.

I don't know if this is a regular occurrence, but I can't imagine that many people on that train would be in a hurry to use it again.

When I travelled on a Sunday morning on the 11:04 the queue was very long. There was a 10:20 (ish) to Paris and 10:31 to Disney. I joined the queue at 09:45 and sat down in the departure lounge at 10:30. There were people for Disney next to me at passport control so the train departed late. It seems to me that telling people to turn up 90 minutes early is actually causing the problem. The actual checking of the passports didn't seem to take any longer than normal so why do people need to turn up earlier to clog up the queue and fill up the departure lounge?

 

[johncrossley]

Exactly my point. Without a car there is no way to cross the channel apart from flying or a tedious double back rail journey on HS1. Taking a car on the ferry or using the limited foot passenger boats is not practical

You are basically as connected to Eurostar as someone in Southampton. There's no advantage to living in eastern Kent now, other than perhaps lower housing costs. You are better off living near an airport these days if you want good accessibility to the mainland. Or better still, move to the other side of the water.

 

[BluePenguin]

You are basically as connected to Eurostar as someone in Southampton. There's no advantage to living in eastern Kent now, other than perhaps lower housing costs. You are better off living near an airport these days if you want good accessibility to the mainland. Or better still, move to the other side of the water.

To add insult to injury, the Southeastern trains go past the entrance to the channel tunnel on the way to St Pancras! At least we have the ferries and Eurotunnel for those with a car. Makes us slightly more connected than Southampton - although by land and sea of course, not air

 

[alex397]

To add insult to injury, the Southeastern trains go past the entrance to the channel tunnel on the way to St Pancras! At least we have the ferries and Eurotunnel for those with a car. Makes us slightly more connected than Southampton - although by land and sea of course, not air

Yes at least there are those options for car users, but it is frustrating that transport options for those without a car are worsening, when really it should be becoming easier.

 

[johncrossley]

Yes at least there are those options for car users, but it is frustrating that transport options for those without a car are worsening, when really it should be becoming easier.

It is often the case that a high speed line means a deterioration in service for intermediate locations. Even before Covid, Ashford was already left with a limited service following the opening of Ebbsfleet. From the point of view of eastern Kent, the Channel Tunnel should never have been built. They used to enjoy a vast number of sailings per day on a variety of routes before the Tunnel opened.

The fares charged on the ferries and on Eurotunnel are very expensive at the moment, so even travellers with a car aren't doing that well.

 

[AdamWW]

It is often the case that a high speed line means a deterioration in service for intermediate locations. Even before Covid, Ashford was already left with a limited service following the opening of Ebbsfleet. From the point of view of eastern Kent, the Channel Tunnel should never have been built. They used to enjoy a vast number of sailings per day on a variety of routes before the Tunnel opened.

I suspect that even without the tunnel there would have been a reduction in ferry services due to a shift to air travel.

 

[Trainbike46]

It is often the case that a high speed line means a deterioration in service for intermediate locations. Even before Covid, Ashford was already left with a limited service following the opening of Ebbsfleet. From the point of view of eastern Kent, the Channel Tunnel should never have been built. They used to enjoy a vast number of sailings per day on a variety of routes before the Tunnel opened.

on multiple ferry routes you can still travel as a foot passenger, including Dover-Calais with P&O, Newhaven-Dieppe and the Brittany ferries western channel crossings

 

[AdamWW]

on multiple ferry routes you can still travel as a foot passenger, including Dover-Calais with P&O, Newhaven-Dieppe and the Brittany ferries western channel crossings

You can but I don't think Dover to Calais is particularly easy these days (or particularly cheap).

So far as I know there isn't much scope for getting a coach to France from anywhere south of London either, so - frustrating as it might be - one should perhaps not particularly single out Eurostar.

 

[Trainbike46]

If you are able to travel by bike, then Dover-Calais with DFDS and Dover-Dunkirk are also possible

You can but I don't think Dover to Calais is particularly easy these days (or particularly cheap).

So far as I know there isn't much scope for getting a coach to France from anywhere south of London either, so - frustrating as it might be - one should perhaps not particularly single out Eurostar.

I do wonder why the coach services running through kent don't do pick-ups in the direction of mainland europe - it shouldn't add much to the journey time if the location is chosen carefully

Singles for £30 show up with DFDS with a bike for travel today, tomorrow some are only £25, so that doesn't sound too bad

P&O dover-calais is even cheaper at £9.87 for a single foot passenger one way, for travel today

A return for less than £20 at short notice doesn't seem bad at all, to be honest!

Of course there are good reasons to avoid P&O, it's rather unfortunate DFDS doesn't take foot passengers