Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[Parallel]

The Mk4s have bi-lingual info screens at the car ends - as far as I could see they were scrolling a Welsh Government news-feed!
There are dual language covid safety announcements after every stop too, but not "see it, say it, sorted", thankfully.

Also on the Avanti Voyager, there were Welsh language auto-announcements:
eg "Dyma orsaf Y Rhyl..." (ie next station is Rhyl, we hope you've enjoyed your journey" etc).
I don't think I've heard Welsh announcements on a West Coast train before.
Presumably First use the same method on GWR services in South Wales?

GWR do not provide any Welsh announcements on board their services

 

[typetwos]

57310 with 82201, 11319, 10318, 12310, 12434, 12211 on 5Q86 10:37 DONCWSTYD to ELGHARLTN 09/10/21

 

[warwickshire]

Out off interest please.
How come ex grand Central set 01 is now being moved from Doncaster works to eastleigh Arlington. Is eastleigh now doing the work needed for the tfw mk4 overhaul instead off Doncaster.
Or is it storage.
Maybe in time will the other ec grand Central sets at worksop yard ie will they move from worksop to eastleigh instead.
However more interestingly what will happen to the other lner liveried coaches that moved as spares with ex gc01 . To Doncaster originally. From worksop. Which also was meant to be spares extra for tfw ie the ex red lner livery Coaches as additional vehicles will these move from Doncaster in time.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Out off interest please.
How come ex grand Central set 01 is now being moved from Doncaster works to eastleigh Arlington. Is eastleigh now doing the work needed for the tfw mk4 overhaul instead off Doncaster.
Or is it storage.
Maybe in time will the other ec grand Central sets at worksop yard ie will they move from worksop to eastleigh instead.
However more interestingly what will happen to the other lner liveried coaches that moved as spares with ex gc01 . To Doncaster originally. From worksop. Which also was meant to be spares extra for tfw ie the ex red lner livery Coaches as additional vehicles will these move from Doncaster in time.

Didn't Eastleigh do some of the work on the DVTs for the original batch of three mark 4 sets for TfW - can't remember if it was the repaint or modifications to work with class 67s, or both? If so, perhaps that work is being kept with the team who did it before and other work is being done in Doncaster?

 

[Nym]

Doncaster just overhauls them to the specification that was previously done for C4, C6 etc.
The works for converting to AAR operation and through wiring is being carried out at Eastleigh under the supervision / design of DB ESG. (See https://news.railbusinessdaily.com/db-esg-wins-project-with-transport-for-wales/)

 

[47296lastduff]

Taken a few days ago on 1122 CDF to HHD service, this coach is still labelled as part of a Bounds Green set.

 

[craigybagel]

Given the MKIV Manchester services aren't now expected to start until early 2023: there's plenty of time to get the sets modified, and it wouldn't surprise me if they spend a period of time in storage as well.

 

[wobman]

Given the MKIV Manchester services aren't now expected to start until early 2023: there's plenty of time to get the sets modified, and it wouldn't surprise me if they spend a period of time in storage as well.

Maybe after the testing and training they could be used to strengthen services on other routes, TFW certainly need longer sets on some routes.
I did see them at Widnes and they looked like very nice after there refurbishment, there introduction will help strengthen other routes and services as some 197's will be displaced.

 

[craigybagel]

Maybe after the testing and training they could be used to strengthen services on other routes, TFW certainly need longer sets on some routes.
I did see them at Widnes and they looked like very nice after there refurbishment, there introduction will help strengthen other routes and services as some 197's will be displaced.

As much as I'd love to see it, I suspect the reason behind the wait until 2023 is the training backlog. AIUI the Manchester services require another 27 drivers to be trained on 67s and MKIVs, and it's a 3 week long course per driver. At the same time every driver in the company outside of the Cardiff Valleys needs to get 197 training and that obviously has to take priority. Throw in the backlog of route learning across the company, and the need to cover Chester drivers so they can learn 230s, and I just can't see it being possible to get them out much sooner.

 

[Caaardiff]

Hopefully strengthening shouldn't be a problem. It's likely the 175s will remain until the 197s have bedded in well. From another forum stating the deliveries will now be at quite a decent rate they may be able to double up 197s on some services if drivers still aren't trained up.
It may also mean a mishmash of unit workings as well.
There should be enough scope in the fleet for the 197s to cover South Wales - Manchester until the reliability and competence is in a good place and other types in the fleet start to leave.

 

[wobman]

As much as I'd love to see it, I suspect the reason behind the wait until 2023 is the training backlog. AIUI the Manchester services require another 27 drivers to be trained on 67s and MKIVs, and it's a 3 week long course per driver. At the same time every driver in the company outside of the Cardiff Valleys needs to get 197 training and that obviously has to take priority. Throw in the backlog of route learning across the company, and the need to cover Chester drivers so they can learn 230s, and I just can't see it being possible to get them out much sooner.

It's a shame the Holyhead drivers can't use the GC sets on the N Wales coast or to Manchester airport. TFW won't let other small depots drivers sign the MK4s which would help them in the long term with cross depot cover.
The loco traction training is a headache for TFW compared to the 197 & 230 training, saying that the 230 training takes over 3 weeks usually they are so unreliable !

There's plenty of track work going on at Holyhead depot, it's great to see the place busy again.

 

[47827]

It's a shame the Holyhead drivers can't use the GC sets on the N Wales coast or to Manchester airport. TFW won't let other small depots drivers sign the MK4s which would help them in the long term with cross depot cover.
The loco traction training is a headache for TFW compared to the 197 & 230 training, saying that the 230 training takes over 3 weeks usually they are so unreliable !

There's plenty of track work going on at Holyhead depot, it's great to see the place busy again.

The timetable and crewing diagrams would both need changing to some degree for even just 1 internal Coast diagram to be added in. But that then gives little or no contingency as Holyhead/Crewe (drivers)/Shrewsbury (guards) remain the only ones that can be rostered so you'd still effectively have to have access to a spare unit for crew non availability.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It must have worked up till fairly recently with the Crewe-based Mk3 set and its Crewe-Chester-Manchester-Holyhead-Manchester-Llandudno-Crewe diagram.
Why could that not be a Mk4 diagram in the future?
This also worked some summer Saturday services along the coast.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

It must have worked up till fairly recently with the Crewe-based Mk3 set and its Crewe-Chester-Manchester-Holyhead-Manchester-Llandudno-Crewe diagram.
Why could that not be a Mk4 diagram in the future?
This also worked some summer Saturday services along the coast.

That’s not been around for some time now, so not really fairly recently.

 

[Wyrleybart]

As much as I'd love to see it, I suspect the reason behind the wait until 2023 is the training backlog. AIUI the Manchester services require another 27 drivers to be trained on 67s and MKIVs, and it's a 3 week long course per driver. At the same time every driver in the company outside of the Cardiff Valleys needs to get 197 training and that obviously has to take priority. Throw in the backlog of route learning across the company, and the need to cover Chester drivers so they can learn 230s, and I just can't see it being possible to get them out much sooner.

Agree that it must be a phenomenal backlog, perhaps very slightly lessened by sending the 170s to EMR. I believe the plan was for 170s to work Central Wales and Salop-Crewe which must have involved Salop and maybe Crewe crew too. As it is everyone except Valleys needs to learn 197 which is presumably the core traction now.

I am guessing that whichever crews who are learning 67s for the first time also have to learn the art of loco driving too, which is somewhat different to driving a multiple unit, particularly in terms of braking. Is it TfW drivers who do the coupling and uncoupling of 67s to Mk4s ? Or do TfW have that rare breed of orangeman ?

 

[PHILIPE]

Agree that it must be a phenomenal backlog, perhaps very slightly lessened by sending the 170s to EMR. I believe the plan was for 170s to work Central Wales and Salop-Crewe which must have involved Salop and maybe Crewe crew too. As it is everyone except Valleys needs to learn 197 which is presumably the core traction now.

And Carmarthen

 

[wobman]

And Carmarthen

Agree that it must be a phenomenal backlog, perhaps very slightly lessened by sending the 170s to EMR. I believe the plan was for 170s to work Central Wales and Salop-Crewe which must have involved Salop and maybe Crewe crew too. As it is everyone except Valleys needs to learn 197 which is presumably the core traction now.

I am guessing that whichever crews who are learning 67s for the first time also have to learn the art of loco driving too, which is somewhat different to driving a multiple unit, particularly in terms of braking. Is it TfW drivers who do the coupling and uncoupling of 67s to Mk4s ? Or do TfW have that rare breed of orangeman ?

I believe TFW want to retain some 153's to run on the heart of Wales line, the 197 project involves a huge amount of training.
But it quicker to sign a dmu than the 3 week loco and DVT / mk4's training, I've always said Llandudno junction drivers should sign the stock to help with cross depot cover.
Llandudno junction is not exactly a busy depot work wise and they could have signed the stock but the 197 training will be the priority now for TFW.

 

[craigybagel]

It must have worked up till fairly recently with the Crewe-based Mk3 set and its Crewe-Chester-Manchester-Holyhead-Manchester-Llandudno-Crewe diagram.
Why could that not be a Mk4 diagram in the future?
This also worked some summer Saturday services along the coast.

A couple of things have changed since then. Firstly, the entire diagram bar the first leg from Crewe to Chester to in the morning was worked by Llandudno Junction guards (and in the final timetable, they worked that bit too). Now, nobody at Junction signs MKIVs, nor are they ever likely to.
Secondly, with the extension to Manchester Airport (and the changes since Covid) the diagrams may well have changed and trying to keep it to a self contained diagram only worked by a limited pool of staff may be more complicated than it was before (and it was awkward enough to do last time around). And that's assuming Holyhead crews are available and not tied up with other things (like learning 197s).
It would also probably require getting the MKIVs cleared for Chester - Manchester which might not be straightforward or cheap.

Agree that it must be a phenomenal backlog, perhaps very slightly lessened by sending the 170s to EMR. I believe the plan was for 170s to work Central Wales and Salop-Crewe which must have involved Salop and maybe Crewe crew too. As it is everyone except Valleys needs to learn 197 which is presumably the core traction now.

I am guessing that whichever crews who are learning 67s for the first time also have to learn the art of loco driving too, which is somewhat different to driving a multiple unit, particularly in terms of braking. Is it TfW drivers who do the coupling and uncoupling of 67s to Mk4s ? Or do TfW have that rare breed of orangeman ?

I've not done the MKIV course yet so can't speak for it, but I know of the old three week MKIII the vast majority of time was spent learning about the loco itself. It's certainly a big change for drivers who've only ever driven units!

 

[richpthomas]

Taken a few days ago on 1122 CDF to HHD service, this coach is still labelled as part of a Bounds Green set.

I'm probably going to need to travel CDF–BNG at New Year, and was hoping to aim for a mk4 service, so it's good to see these are in service now! Are they doing the full set of diagrams (is it three northbound & three southbound)? I'll be keeping my eye on the Diagrams thread, assuming things might change with the December timetable.

Is there any estimate as to when proper catering might return? This only-ever-takes-standard-class traveller is very tempted to try and go first class, for the full meal experience—but I'd need to find advance fares to do it. TfW's journeyplanner doesn't seem to offer any advance 1sts at the moment, for any dates as far as I can tell—is this a temporary thing while there's such limited catering? A Covid thing? They'll happily sell anytime 1st tickets, but nothing affordable that I can see.

 

[PaulHarding150]

When I’ve eaten on Gerald before I’ve bought a standard ticket and upgraded on the day (IIRC £15-£25 depending on the journey length) which includes the meal. I’ve personally never known it so busy that I’ve been refused service.

 

[_toommm_]

When I’ve eaten on Gerald before I’ve bought a standard ticket and upgraded on the day (IIRC £15-£25 depending on the journey length) which includes the meal. I’ve personally never known it so busy that I’ve been refused service.

It was very cosy when ever I did the evening Gerald, but IIRC it was only half a coach, so 20ish seats. On the MK4 sets, there's a lot more seats in First Class, so it will definitely be a better experience.

 

[robert thomas]

When I used Gerald recently there were free snacks in 1st class but the buffet lady told me that when dining returns next week it will not be in the price of the ticket and will be billed seperately.

 

[richpthomas]

When I’ve eaten on Gerald before I’ve bought a standard ticket and upgraded on the day (IIRC £15-£25 depending on the journey length) which includes the meal. I’ve personally never known it so busy that I’ve been refused service.

When I used Gerald recently there were free snacks in 1st class but the buffet lady told me that when dining returns next week it will not be in the price of the ticket and will be billed seperately.

That's interesting—thanks both!

 

[Bikeman78]

When I used Gerald recently there were free snacks in 1st class but the buffet lady told me that when dining returns next week it will not be in the price of the ticket and will be billed seperately.

So you'll have to pay to upgrade and then pay again to eat? Or simply sit in first whilst eating and then return to standard?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

When I used Gerald recently there were free snacks in 1st class but the buffet lady told me that when dining returns next week it will not be in the price of the ticket and will be billed seperately.

TfW joins Avanti and many others on the first class downgrades then. I assume the price of first class won’t decrease accordingly, not by a suitable amount anyway.

 

[morrisobrien]

I was on the 1122hrs from Cardiff on Monday.Went all the way to Holyhead.Great experience.Quite busy, seat selectors still showing East Coast stations causing confusion for some.
Catering/Buffet bar very limited, although a few sandwiches did come on at Shrewsbury.

 

[Envoy]

These Inter City type trains can’t come soon enough. The alternative XC trains to get from south Wales to Scotland are often 2 coach 170’s as far as Birmingham for a change to Avanti West Coast. (Going XC via Newcastle is about 1 hour longer to Edinburgh). I just hope that TfW have the sense to make sure that the Mk4 services match with the Avanti services at Crewe rather than it being the 197 services.

PS. I see that ‘The Marches Line’ is featured on CH 5’s Scenic Rail Journeys tonight at 8pm (Thursday 14 October 2021).

 

[wobman]

I'm looking forward to the hot food options returning, it used to be excellent.

 

[berneyarms]

I just hope that TfW have the sense to make sure that the Mk4 services match with the Avanti services at Crewe rather than it being the 197 services.

As I understand it South Wales-Manchester will continue to be an hourly service, but will be a mix of Mark 4 and Class 197 operation. I also suspect that the timings for the service at Crewe will surely be as now, due to TfW having to use their allocated path between Crewe and Manchester Piccadilly and the slot to cross over the West Coast mainline at Crewe.

Any changes will presumably be down to what the stopping pattern south of Crewe is.

That would leave the current connections at Crewe of 40 minutes northbound into Anglo-Scottish services and 10-15 minutes southbound.

 

[Envoy]

As I understand it South Wales-Manchester will continue to be an hourly service, but will be a mix of Mark 4 and Class 197 operation. I also suspect that the timings for the service at Crewe will surely be as now, due to TfW having to use their allocated path between Crewe and Manchester Piccadilly and the slot to cross over the West Coast mainline at Crewe.

Any changes will presumably be down to what the stopping pattern south of Crewe is.

That would leave the current connections at Crewe of 40 minutes northbound into Anglo-Scottish services and 10-15 minutes southbound.

Another factor to take into account is being able to drop off and pick up passengers at Craven Arms to correspond with the Heart of Wales Line*. One would hope that this would be done by services operated by the 197’s rather than the Mk 4’s. *For those passengers coming from or going to the south (Hereford etc)..