Excess Fares Policy - change of travel time

[RileyRM]

Hi. My son, who is not an experienced rail traveller, had to travel at short notice for his employer from Cardiff Central to Rickmansworth last Friday. He was sold a Super Off Peak ticket for £78.50 at Cardiff Central but was not advised about travel restrictions on the return journey. When he tried to go back through Paddington at around 17.30 he was told that his ticket was not valid that evening and was sold a new single at £106.50. He wasn't advised that he could wait until later in the evening.

He will be making a complaint about the customer service particularly at Paddington and claiming for the unused portion of the original ticket. However should he just have been charged an excess at Paddington rather than hit for the whole cost of a new single ticket?

As a long distance commuter for 20+ years I know the ticketing rules are complicated and it is very much buyer beware but this is exactly the sort of experience which puts the uninitiated off train travel!

 

[bb21]

There may be a case for complaint. Where was he sold the new ticket? By whom?

Edit:

Come to think about it, I am not sure how much a case for complaint you have.

An excess would not have been appropriate. He would need the ticket to be excessed up to the Anytime Return (which costs £226) to be valid leaving Paddington at 1730, so that would have cost him £226 - £78.50 = £147.50. Selling him the Anytime Single from Paddington is cheaper and was the correct course of action if he decided that he wanted to travel then.

I am not sure how much a case for complaint you have on the issue of not being informed of the possibility to wait for a later train. He had about two hours to wait before his ticket became valid at 1901 (so first direct train at 1915). Perhaps he decided that he did not want to wait?

As to the refund value of his existing ticket, the refund value is £1, which is the difference between the Super Off-Peak Single and the Super Off-Peak Return which he has, but to get a refund, a £10 admin fee would be chargeable officially speaking, so the net refund is zero.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The excess is the difference in fares or a new single if cheaper. The problem with the excess in this case is that it would be to the cheapest return ticket that is valid for immediate travel (£226), so a new ticket (£106.50) was actually cheaper.

It is debatable if they should have been told about travelling later, unless the staff were asked about it.

The return portion is part used (106.50 is the fare from Paddington to Cardiff), but even if it wasn't a refund of the unused portion would be a maximum of £1.

 

[yorkie]

Hi. My son, who is not an experienced rail traveller, had to travel at short notice for his employer from Cardiff Central to Rickmansworth last Friday. He was sold a Super Off Peak ticket for £78.50 at Cardiff Central but was not advised about travel restrictions on the return journey.

He should have been. Unfortunately the conditions are still considered binding.

When he tried to go back through Paddington at around 17.30 he was told that his ticket was not valid that evening

That's correct, the 'RTN' portion of the 'SSR' ticket held is valid by any train into London but then restrictions apply from London, the relevant part being " On services timed to depart London Paddington between 1010 and 1501, and from 1901." So for no payment, he could have waited approximately 1.5 hours to get a train.

The 'RTN' portion of an Off Peak Return (SVR) ticket is valid, as above, but "On services timed to depart London Paddington between 0810 and 1640, and from 1831" So for a payment of £19.50 (excess), he could have waited approximately 1 hour to get a train.

The only valid return ticket to excess to would be the Anytime Return (SOR), this is priced at a whopping £226, and an excess would be £147.50! Therefore, it is cheaper not to excess and pay for a new ticket, if travel was required at that time.

and was sold a new single at £106.50. He wasn't advised that he could wait until later in the evening.

He should have been advised that his ticket wasn't valid until 1901, and what the cost of travelling earlier would be, so an informed decision could be made.

He will be making a complaint about the customer service particularly at Paddington and claiming for the unused portion of the original ticket.

I agree a complaint is warranted. The unused portion has only a value of £1, however (the difference between a Single and a Return) so I would ask for more than that!

However should he just have been charged an excess at Paddington rather than hit for the whole cost of a new single ticket?

The passenger should be offered an excess fare in these circumstances, except where a new ticket is cheaper. In this case, a new ticket is cheaper.

As a long distance commuter for 20+ years I know the ticketing rules are complicated and it is very much buyer beware but this is exactly the sort of experience which puts the uninitiated off train travel!

Totally agree.

Some people in the rail industry act in a way that leads me to conclude that they want to put people off. They are a minority, but they do exist and their actions are not easy to forget.

 

[Haywain]

I find it difficult to imagine that he wasn't told what the alternative was to buying a new ticket - that is, waiting until 19:15. So, my guess is that he didn't want to wait. If there are grounds for complaint it would be about what he was or wasn't told when buying the ticket at Cardiff.

 

[RileyRM]

Thanks for all your help. He will be making a complaint to FGW over the lack of advice about waiting till later. Although he will be claiming the cost of the ticket back from his employer he still feels as if he has been "ripped off" At least he will be more aware of the rules in the future but still finds it incredible that a standard single from London to Cardiff is £106.50!

 

[bb21]

Well he decided to travel in the high peaks and it is not exactly a secret that peak intercity fares are very expensive in this country, is it?

One thing that popped into my mind just now: Did he not think to ask how he could avoid paying that if he thought it was expensive? Did he not think to refuse to pay £106 when told the price and seek alternative options?

Also you still haven't explained exactly where he was told that his ticket was not valid. This may have an impact on whether you actually have a case.

What conversation took place exactly, and where?

 

[yorkie]

Thanks for all your help. He will be making a complaint to FGW over the lack of advice about waiting till later. Although he will be claiming the cost of the ticket back from his employer he still feels as if he has been "ripped off" At least he will be more aware of the rules in the future

Indeed, at least the lesson has been learnt without him being out of pocket himself, so it could've been worse!

but still finds it incredible that a standard single from London to Cardiff is £106.50!

I wouldn't get into that argument.

For comparison, Chesterfield is about the same distance from London and is about the same price for an Anytime Single at £104. Be thankful your fares are not priced by Virgin Trains, as Stoke is £133.50! (That said, a Railcard holder wouldn't need an Anytime ticket to get to Stoke, so some people would be paying less than the equivalent fares charged by FGW).

So, again, it could have been worse!!

 

[RileyRM]

First job, first experience of peak business travel so the extra cost did come as a surprise particularly as he thought he had already bought a valid ticket!

His ticket was rejected at the barrier and was sent by the line staff to the ticket office as his ticket was not valid for travel. It was at the ticket office that he was told he would need another ticket and was not advised that the ticket held would be valid later in the evening. As he needed to get back to Cardiff he thought there was no option but to pay up. This is the main issue for him rather than the cost of the new ticket and he has sent a complaint to FGW.

I will update this post when he receives a reply. At least he will be aware of his options next time he needs to make the journey.

 

[yorkie]

No worries.

I agree with Haywain that it's hard to believe... but I've experienced many things that did happen that are hard to believe, and some of those were at, or en-route into, Paddington!

Not much surprises me these days!

I suggest we leave the thread there, but please do keep us informed of any further updates.

For future reference, if it's his first job, he is probably eligible for a 16-25 Railfcard which would save him (or his employer) money in future. Though I appreciate it may be a complex situation as the employer may have rules that prevent the initial cost of a Railcard being paid for by the Company so it might cost him more to get one. But worth looking into anyway - it would have more than paid for himself on this journey alone.

 

[455driver]

For future reference, if it's his first job, he is probably eligible for a 16-25 Railfcard which would save him (or his employer) money in future. Though I appreciate it may be a complex situation as the employer may have rules that prevent the initial cost of a Railcard being paid for by the Company so it might cost him more to get one. But worth looking into anyway - it would have more than paid for himself on this journey alone.

My 21 year old son tried a similar thing with his employer and he was expressly told not to use his 18-25 RC when booking tickets as it caused issues with the accountants who preferred to deal with adult tickets only! :roll:

 

[Paul Kelly]

Well he decided to travel in the high peaks and it is not exactly a secret that peak intercity fares are very expensive in this country, is it?

On the other hand, even people who are familiar with train travel, but outside London, may assume peak travel restrictions only apply in the mornings - since this is true for large parts of the country.