Exorbitant MG11 Settlement

[MasonConnaught]

Good afternoon.

Coming to this forum seeking guidance relating to a recent prosecution letter from SWR.

Earlier this year, I boarded a train to London Waterloo and upon disembarking I was stopped at the barrier by a revenue protection officer who asked to see the Railcard I'd used to purchase the ticket. My Railcard had expired several months back (unknowingly), therefore when I went to show the SWR employee the Railcard, to my surprise, it was expired. It's not a valid excuse to get out of paying reconciliation fees, my point is to illustrate I was genuinely unaware I was using an expired railcard.

I explained the issue to the employee who understood but mentioned I'd need to pay a fine which I accepted. However, having received the letter, the settlement fee amounts to over £1,200 (including admin fees). This is completely unreasonable considering the offence and wanted to know my options from here.

I imagine they have used my trainline account to go back and trace suspected journeys made without a valid Railcard. However, many of these purchases were made for a family/friend also using a valid 16-25 Railcard. There is also no way that even with these journeys included could the unpaid fares possibly total to this amount.

Any help regarding how the prosecutions team sum unpaid fares, designate fines, and how much authority they have to use past travel information would be great. To add context, I'd held a Railcard for 3 consecutive years prior to this and almost immediately renewed the card following this incident. It was a genuine mistake which in no way is deserving of a four figure settlement.

 

[Huntergreed]

Good afternoon.

Coming to this forum seeking guidance relating to a recent prosecution letter from SWR.

Earlier this year, I boarded a train to London Waterloo and upon disembarking I was stopped at the barrier by a revenue protection officer who asked to see the Railcard I'd used to purchase the ticket. My Railcard had expired several months back (unknowingly), therefore when I went to show the SWR employee the Railcard, to my surprise, it was expired. It's not a valid excuse to get out of paying reconciliation fees, my point is to illustrate I was genuinely unaware I was using an expired railcard.

I explained the issue to the employee who understood but mentioned I'd need to pay a fine which I accepted. However, having received the letter, the settlement fee amounts to over £1,200 (including admin fees). This is completely unreasonable considering the offence and wanted to know my options from here.

I imagine they have used my trainline account to go back and trace suspected journeys made without a valid Railcard. However, many of these purchases were made for a family/friend also using a valid 16-25 Railcard. There is also no way that even with these journeys included could the unpaid fares possibly total to this amount.

Any help regarding how the prosecutions team sum unpaid fares, designate fines, and how much authority they have to use past travel information would be great. To add context, I'd held a Railcard for 3 consecutive years prior to this and almost immediately renewed the card following this incident. It was a genuine mistake which in no way is deserving of a four figure settlement.

Welcome to the forum!

It is likely that SWR have looked into your travel history and assumed that any journey they could find with the railcard discount was an unpaid fare.

It is also likely they will have used the full fare amount to calculate this number for each incident, not just the difference between the discounted fare and the full fare.

I’m aware that there seems to be industry developments regarding travel history/railcards (but I’m unsure of these in much detail). Regardless, at the moment it’s hard for me to say just how far back TOC’s are able to look through your journey history.

If you have proof of past railcards, it may be worth sending copies of these to SWR and explaining the situation. They may be willing to reduce the settlement amount (although there is no legal entitlement to this).

If you do choose to do this, keep it constructive and apologetic.

 

[Gloster]

I am not an expert and wiser heads will be along with the full advice later. However, when calculating fares to be paid the railway has a standard practice of charging the full Anytime Single fare for each and every incidence they decide to proceed with, with no allowance for any fares paid. They then normally add £100, or possibly a bit more, for their expenses in investigating the cases.

As far as buying tickets for a family member, others will give advice on this,

You did the right thing by promptly purchasing a new card.

 

[MasonConnaught]

I am not an expert and wiser heads will be along with the full advice later. However, when calculating fares to be paid the railway has a standard practice of charging the full Anytime Single fare for each and every incidence they decide to proceed with, with no allowance for any fares paid. They then normally add £100, or possibly a bit more, for their expenses in investigating the cases.

As far as buying tickets for a family member, others will give advice on this,

You did the right thing by promptly purchasing a new card.

Thank you.

It's a difficult situation. Regarding their additional expenses, they've decided to add c. £250. Which in itself seems ridiculous, let alone the math behind the unpaid fares.

 

[Dai Corner]

I imagine they have used my trainline account to go back and trace suspected journeys made without a valid Railcard. However, many of these purchases were made for a family/friend also using a valid 16-25 Railcard. There is also no way that even with these journeys included could the unpaid fares possibly total to this amount.

Someone more experienced in these matters than I am might be able to say whether getting your family/friend to confirm that he/she used these tickets and held a valid Railcard at the time would be helpful to your case? Were you travelling together?

 

[MasonConnaught]

Someone more experienced in these matters than I am might be able to say whether getting your family/friend to confirm that he/she used these tickets and held a valid Railcard at the time would be helpful to your case? Were you travelling together?

We weren't. They had an older phone which didn't support/run the trainline app, so it was easier to purchase tickets on my account using their card details and then share them to their phone.

 

[Snow1964]

Ultimately an offer is just that, they can only prosecute you for the journey you were caught, unless you choose to incriminate yourself by volunteering other journeys where you definitely travelled.

If you have a family account for all ticket purchases, and there are other railcards in the family, then send photocopies of these and explain your history included tickets for other family members.

I suspect they have just totalled up the journeys since expiry date, looked up what full fare is and used this. Once this is realised they will be on a sticky wicket fining you for journeys you didn't make (buying a ticket isn't an offence, travelling without a valid one is).
My guess is they will then make a counteroffer.

The alternative is the take you to Court, can only prove one journey, and court is unlikely to fine you anything like £1200 (but they will add costs and victim surcharge, say £200-300). But risk of criminal record.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

We are seeing many cases where train companies are researching online ticketing accounts when investigating travel irregularities. It is surprising how unaware people are about the digitital footprint they leave behind when purchasing online, not just on the railway but in general life. I am not a GDPR expert but there is a general exemption for prevention and detection of crime. I started a thread about this recently:

How Long Should Retailers Keep Records of Ticket Purchases For?

In a thread in Disputes & Prosecutions GWR and Trainline have researched a customers online ticket purchasing history for the last five years. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/penalty-charge-retrospectively-by-gwr-based-on-trainline-history-for-the-past-5-years.252035/ How long do ticket...

www.railforums.co.uk

As for your individual case is this the first correspondence you've had from SWR? Normally they will send an initial letter before sending an offer of a settlement?

It is unfortunate that your railcard was months out of date as I would say this is what caused them to dig deeper. Using a railcard discounted ticket when you don't have that railcard means you are treated as not holding a ticket at all and SWR are within their rights to prosecute you for that. A prosecution would only succeed for the single occasion on which you were caught but if you are prosecuted I would expect this to be under the Regulation of the Railways Act rather than the Railway Bylaws. This means that conviction would result in a 'full fat' criminal record (spent after a year for most purposes but still a hassle most would want to avoid).

SWR are offering you the opportunity to avoid court by offering you what is known as an Administrative Settlement (also called an out of court settlement). This means that if you pay them some money they will not prosecute for you. While paying the sum of money will appear to be a fine it isn't - only a court can impose a fine as a punishment following a conviction. You won't have a criminal record if you pay the settlement.

The issue is the size of the settlement offer as you claim some of the tickets were purchased for other people. It is not an offence to purchase a ticket for someone else but you need to be able to convince SWR that these tickets were purchased for other people:

Is there a pattern to the tickets purchased for other people - eg days and times of the week, different destination?
Can you evidence the railcard that these other people would have used?

There is nothing to stop you contacting SWR and seeing if you can convince them to reconsider the size of the settlement but this is quite a high risk strategy because SWR could simply decide to withdraw it and issue a court summons. You will need to weigh up how many of the tickets purchased were for others and balance this against the risk and cost of a court case and criminal record.

If it ends up in court you would be found guilty and be have to pay:

A fine based on your weely income (normally disocunted by a third if you plead guilty at the earliest opportunity)
A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fine
A contribution towards SWR's costs
Compensation for the fare avoided

There would not be much (if any) change out of £1,000.

Finally, the £250 administration cost is on the higher side of what we typically see but this is a more complex case than normal. SWR will want to recover the cost of their investigation and I suspect they also will need to pay something to Trainline for their time in researching your ticket purchasing history so on balance I'd say it's probably reasonable.

 

[anon78424]

Good afternoon.

Coming to this forum seeking guidance relating to a recent prosecution letter from SWR.

Earlier this year, I boarded a train to London Waterloo and upon disembarking I was stopped at the barrier by a revenue protection officer who asked to see the Railcard I'd used to purchase the ticket. My Railcard had expired several months back (unknowingly), therefore when I went to show the SWR employee the Railcard, to my surprise, it was expired. It's not a valid excuse to get out of paying reconciliation fees, my point is to illustrate I was genuinely unaware I was using an expired railcard.

I explained the issue to the employee who understood but mentioned I'd need to pay a fine which I accepted. However, having received the letter, the settlement fee amounts to over £1,200 (including admin fees). This is completely unreasonable considering the offence and wanted to know my options from here.

I imagine they have used my trainline account to go back and trace suspected journeys made without a valid Railcard. However, many of these purchases were made for a family/friend also using a valid 16-25 Railcard. There is also no way that even with these journeys included could the unpaid fares possibly total to this amount.

Any help regarding how the prosecutions team sum unpaid fares, designate fines, and how much authority they have to use past travel information would be great. To add context, I'd held a Railcard for 3 consecutive years prior to this and almost immediately renewed the card following this incident. It was a genuine mistake which in no way is deserving of a four figure settlement.

Hey just wondering when exactly the incident happened? I'm waiting on a letter as well.

 

[Hadders]

Hey just wondering when exactly the incident happened? I'm waiting on a letter as well.

Please start your own thread and we will be able to offer you appropriate advice.

No two cases are ever quite the same so it’s better if we have one thread for each case to avoid confusion.

 

[madjack]

One thing SWR is unusual in doing is inviting people to an informal interview in similar cases in order to avoid a court case, e.g. see this thread, so there is a third option here - between a counteroffer and an immediate summons to Court - which might be triggered if the OP were to challenge the amount.

In this case, given the sums involved and if the facts are being contested (i.e. that the OP bought tickets for a family/friend), I would recommend legal representation at that interview if the OP were to attend, although as in other cases the solicitor might well be successful in negotiating a settlement without the interview.

 

[Hadders]

I’m not sure there’ll be an interview, SWR have made their offer and I don’t think they will be minded to discuss it in person.

 

[madjack]

I’m not sure there’ll be an interview, SWR have made their offer and I don’t think they will be minded to discuss it in person.

I mention it more as a warning than anything else. As you said in a previous post, SWR would need to be convinced that the tickets were bought for someone else. I think the OP needs to be aware that SWR *do* sometimes interview - a post from someone else in that thread mentioned three phone calls - to ensure that all the money owed is being repaid. It's potentially a more risky outcome than a prosecution for the single offence - e.g. if the OP were to write back with a fact that they couldn't evidence in a face-to-face interview - and I'd urge caution for that reason.

 

[Hadders]

I mention it more as a warning than anything else. As you said in a previous post, SWR would need to be convinced that the tickets were bought for someone else. I think the OP needs to be aware that SWR *do* sometimes interview - a post from someone else in that thread mentioned three phone calls - to ensure that all the money owed is being repaid. It's potentially a more risky outcome than a prosecution for the single offence - e.g. if the OP were to write back with a fact that they couldn't evidence in a face-to-face interview - and I'd urge caution for that reason.

Either way it’s going to be expensive for the OP.

Pay £1,200 to make the matter go away.
Go to court where there’s not going to be much change out of £1,000
Try and convince SWR that the settlement should be reduced, in some ways there’s nothing to lose. They might agree but if they don’t they could withdraw the settlement and send the case to court. From a financial point of view there’s nothing to lose but it’s the OP’s appetite for a criminal record.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Either way it’s going to be expensive for the OP.

Pay £1,200 to make the matter go away.
Go to court where there’s not going to be much change out of £1,000
Try and convince SWR that the settlement should be reduced, in some ways there’s nothing to lose. They might agree but if they don’t they could withdraw the settlement and send the case to court. From a financial point of view there’s nothing to lose but it’s the OP’s appetite for a criminal record.

Depending on the OPs income, and the single fare avoided, I would say a court appearance would be less than £500 in fines, costs, compensation and surcharge. Plus a criminal record.

Only the OP knows if avoiding a record is worth £700.

 

[fairlie]

I'm no expert here and this is a bit speculative but I'm wondering is there not a risk here if it goes to court that given the Railway Company have the purchasing history and know the relevant times during which OP did not have a valid railcard, that they will have paired that with gateline/ticket inspection data and therefore seek to charge more than one offence?

 

[Snow1964]

I'm no expert here and this is a bit speculative but I'm wondering is there not a risk here if it goes to court that given the Railway Company have the purchasing history and know the relevant times during which OP did not have a valid railcard, that they will have paired that with gateline/ticket inspection data and therefore seek to charge more than one offence?

The data might show when they were used, but unless someone trawls cctv (and a lot might not have been kept) they won't know if it was Op or a relative that used the ticket.

There is no offence of buying tickets for your family, and if they have same railcard, then could be valid. The Op has already said use one account for whole family

 

[island]

CCTV is, as usual, a red-herring, it'll have been deleted by now, and it's unlikely they'd look at it even if it hasn't been.