Expired railcard - charged for incorrect days

[VibraniumAlloy]

Hello,

I received a letter about costs to be paid for travel without a valid railcard. Some of the tickets that I have been charged for appear to be a mistake. I was wondering if anyone had recommendations on the best approach to remove the charges mistakenly included.

For some background, I had been given a ticket irregularity report (TIR) on a TPExpress service from Manchester Victoria to Liverpool Lime Street. I was using a railcard-discounted ticket after my railcard's expiry date. I had a friendly experience with the officer and they agreed it was a genuine mistake, which they stated was the reason they issued a TIR instead of a penalty. I replied to a letter about the incident stating it was a mistake and that I had immediately bought a new 3-year railcard after I became aware the railcard was expired. In spite of this, there was further investigation and it was discovered I had bought other railcard-discounted tickets on trainline after the railcard's expiry date, but prior to the TIR. I recently received a letter with charges for several journeys and a £100 admin fee. Some of the journeys I was charged for I understand but others I do not.

I had a 4-year 16-25 railcard from Santander with an expiry date of 17/01. I bought a new 3-year digital 16-25 railcard on 26/01. I was charged for fares on the following dates and have outlined my railcard status for each of these:

• 16/01 - railcard was valid
• 17/01 - railcard was (probably) valid
  • Would be valid according to this FAQ on the 26-30 railcard website (quoted below)
  • I have seen similar on other railcard sites (e.g. Veteran railcard) but I can't find a similar FAQ on the 16-25 railcard website and I can't find a definition of the validity period in the terms and conditions

Your Railcard is valid up until and including the date shown on your Railcard

• 19/01 and 23/01 - railcard was expired
• 26/01 - railcard was expired for the outward part of the journey but I had a valid railcard for the return. Both journeys were advanced singles
  • I was issued a TIR during this outward journey, then bought a new digital railcard that was active during the return part of the journey later the same day.

Am I correct that I should not have been charged for journeys on the 16th and 17th, and the return journey on the 26th? If so, what is the best approach to have these charges removed from the costs owed, or is it a good idea to attempt this at all? The letter states an email address but I am concerned that email replies can be slow, and I have less than 2 week remaining to pay the cost. The letter does not state a phone number, but I can try the contact number for TPExpress customer relations.

Thanks for any advice

 

[WesternLancer]

Am I correct that I should not have been charged for journeys on the 16th and 17th, and the return journey on the 26th? If so, what is the best approach to have these charges removed from the costs owed, or is it a good idea to attempt this at all? The letter states an email address but I am concerned that email replies can be slow, and I have less than 2 week remaining to pay the cost. The letter does not state a phone number, but I can try the contact number for TPExpress customer relations.

Thanks for any advice!

Hi and welcome


My suspicion is that you are correct, but you need to prove this to them and set it out clearly with evidence (eg a table with the dates times of the journeys etc and they reason they have made an error) . I think ringing them (for anything other than to get an e-mail address for the prosecutions team - not a general e-mail or customer services e-mail - but I see letter has their e-mail on it) will not really help - IMHO stuff like this always needs to be done in writing so there can be no mis understandings

You have clearly done your research.

I would say that any Railcard is valid until 23.59 hours on the date of expiry shown on the card (I think it's possibly actually valid until something like 04.00 hours the next day if the train / journey you were on commences before 23.59 but that is not applicable to you so not pertinent)

So yes it should be valid on 16th and 17th January

26th January - rtn journey - also valid so long as the Railcard was purchased at a time before the commencement of that return journey

Can you evidence this with copies of the tickets / seat reservations showing the times / dates of the trains you travelled on and Railcard purchase data that shows the time / date of the Railcard purchase?

I would be writing back to them politely eg along these lines:

'Thank you for your letter of xxx setting out dates when you believe I travelled with tickets discounted with a Railcard when my Railcard had inadvertently expired.

- I had a 16-25 Railcard that expired at 23.59 hours on 17 January 2024 (copy attached)
- I purchased a new 16-25 Railcard (if that is the one you bought) at xx.xx hours on 26 January 2024 (copy attached)

I therefore believe that the the following journeys you have listed were completed with a valid Railcard and I did not travel with invalid tickets on those occasions (copies of tickets attached showing dates and times of travel)
- list those journeys they have got wrong

I would be grateful if you could reconsider your request for payment for travel when I did not have a Railcard, which I believe is on the following journey(s) at xx.xx hours, on yy date(s) [state the sums for the fares they use in their letter your ticket copies will show they were Advance Singles which will have specified train times on them]

Thank you for your further consideration of this matter'

If you are worried about missing the 21 day deadline you could then wait till the day before, pay then as requested, then seek to obtain a partial refund from them, though I accept this would be a nuisance, but also avoiding escalation to prosecution is more of a nuisance....

 

[VibraniumAlloy]

Thanks for your reply.

- I had a 16-25 Railcard that expired at 23.59 hours on 17 January 2024 (copy attached)
- I purchased a new 16-25 Railcard (if that is the one you bought) at xx.xx hours on 26 January 2024 (copy attached)

My railcard was confiscated by the rail officer, and my original railcard email receipt did not include the expiry date, so I thought I did not have any evidence of the expiry date. I based the date I stated, the 17th, on the letter I received in my original post. It seems a key piece of research I missed was into my own railcard account - it was actually the 13th.

So the only journey that has incorrect charges is the return part on the 26th, as I had purchased a new railcard before the commencement of this journey. Given this would amount to less than a £20 reduction of the charges, I think I will just pay the full fare (though perhaps worth seeking a partial refund as suggested). Quite unfortunate, but I definitely won't be making the same mistake on the next expiry date.

Apologies for the mistake on my part, and thank you for your help nonetheless.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for your reply.



My railcard was confiscated by the rail officer, and my original railcard email receipt did not include the expiry date, so I thought I did not have any evidence of the expiry date. I based the date I stated, the 17th, on the letter I received in my original post. It seems a key piece of research I missed was into my own railcard account - it was actually the 13th.

So the only journey that has incorrect charges is the return part on the 26th, as I had purchased a new railcard before the commencement of this journey. Given this would amount to less than a £20 reduction of the charges, I think I will just pay the full fare. Quite unfortunate, but I definitely won't be making the same mistake on the next expiry date.

Apologies for the mistake on my part, and thank you for your help nonetheless.

Aha - that's bad luck. I can see why you just want to pay up given the situation now.

Anytime Day Singles - Manchester to Liverpool are £18.40 so they must be wanting to charge it out at that price - so for the outward journey (no valid Railcard) they might expect that sum but they are charging you another £18.40 for the return on 26 Jan when your ticket was valid.

But as you say it may not be worth arguing over the £18.40 paid for the return if you want to close the matter quickly. It's a shame they are asking for it however.

For further ref (but you probably know this) there are cheaper fares valid 'Northern Trains only' between Manchester and Liverpool - so don't risk using one of those on Transpenine Express by mistake.

It is bad luck that you missed your Railcard renewal date.

 

[AdamWW]

It is bad luck that you missed your Railcard renewal date.

Bad luck compounded by the fact that the railway treats people in this position so harshly by demanding sums of money way out of proportion to the actual loss to the railway.

 

[VibraniumAlloy]

It is bad luck that you missed your Railcard renewal date.

I had misread the date. It was written 13JNR24, which I had misread as 13JN24 i.e. June instead of January. I'd had the railcard for 4 years so it didn't cross my mind the particular month that I'd got it.

It's unfortunate that the officer understood this to be a genuine mistake and yet the situation led to quite a large cost of £284 on top of the ~£70 I had spent on my original advanced singles.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

It's unfortunate that the officer understood this to be a genuine mistake and yet the situation led to quite a large cost of £284 on top of the ~£70 I had spent on my original advanced singles.

Unfortunate?? The officer convinced you he was being understanding of your mistake by not issuing a Penalty Fare, there and then. That would have cost you £50 (if paid promptly) plus the cost of a full fare for the journey you were making. By issuing the TIR, he's reported you for investigation which has led to a demand from TPE for more than 4 times that.

 

[WesternLancer]

I had misread the date. It was written 13JNR24, which I had misread as 13JN24 i.e. June instead of January. I'd had the railcard for 4 years so it didn't cross my mind the particular month that I'd got it.

It's unfortunate that the officer understood this to be a genuine mistake and yet the situation led to quite a large cost of £284 on top of the ~£70 I had spent on my original advanced singles.

as an aside I never buy Advanced Singles unless they offer a reasonable discount on the cheapest walk up flexible fare that you can use on a different train that day if you want to change your plans at the last minute - since you sacrifice flexibility it seems to me there is only ever any point in doing that in exchange for a fair old saving of money. But of course that isn't your problem on this occasion.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

I had misread the date. It was written 13JNR24, which I had misread as 13JN24 i.e. June instead of January. I'd had the railcard for 4 years so it didn't cross my mind the particular month that I'd got it.

Taking this at face value, I would imagine this poster is not the first person to be caught out that way. Why does the railway use these unusual three letter abbreviations for months? In literally every other walk of life I can imagine, January is JAN not JNR...

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Why does the railway use these unusual three letter abbreviations for months? In literally every other walk of life I can imagine, January is JAN not JNR...

Think it was to try to prevent (season) ticket expiry dates being fraudulently altered easily, e.g. 30JUN to 30JUL.

 

[AlterEgo]

Think it was to try to prevent (season) ticket expiry dates being fraudulently altered easily, e.g. 30JUN to 30JUL.

That’s correct. And also the reason for the * at the end of some station names.

 

[VibraniumAlloy]

Unfortunate?? The officer convinced you he was being understanding of your mistake by not issuing a Penalty Fare, there and then. That would have cost you £50 (if paid promptly) plus the cost of a full fare for the journey you were making. By issuing the TIR, he's reported you for investigation which has led to a demand from TPE for more than 4 times that.

From the discussion with the officer, it was my understanding that by issuing the TIR I would get the chance explain my mistake and avoid a penalty. I suppose I did avoid the penalty but was totally unaware there would be further investigation into my previous travel along with a significant admin fee. So a letter arriving asking for £284 came as quite a surprise.

as an aside I never buy Advanced Singles unless they offer a reasonable discount on the cheapest walk up flexible fare that you can use on a different train that day if you want to change your plans at the last minute - since you sacrifice flexibility it seems to me there is only ever any point in doing that in exchange for a fair old saving of money. But of course that isn't your problem on this occasion.

The flexibility is nice I agree but I do find with trips between Liverpool and Manchester the savings with advanced singles are usually significant enough to be worthwhile.

 

[WesternLancer]

The flexibility is nice I agree but I do find with trips between Liverpool and Manchester the savings with advanced singles are usually significant enough to be worthwhile.

Quite so - if you are making an informed choice about the trade off then that can be well worth while.