Fare Evasion

[Traveller14]

Hi All

This week I was stopped at Sandwell and Dudley Station but only had a return ticket for Smethwick Galton Bridge - B'ham New Street.

Sandwell and Dudley is one stop further than Smethwick GB and approximately £2.80 extra for a return fare.

I understand I will be waiting 4-6 weeks as this is being referred to their fraud team.

My big issue is that I have been buying digital return tickets from Smethwick GB to B'ham New Street for the last 18 months, 2 times each week. But the vast majority of these are legitimate. Even though Sandwell is a little closer to where I live, I travelled to Smethwick as the train fare was cheaper.

I am very worried that they will assume that all of these journeys are shorts fares but they are not.

Looking for any advice as I am remorseful and worried sick about the outcome.

I also need to continue using the train 2 times a week and am worried that if I buy a digital return ticket from Smethwick they could think I was short faring but if I go from Sandwell they would think all the past journeys were short fares.

 

[Brissle Girl]

With regard to the last point, I would suggest you buy future tickets from the station at Smethwick if at all possible, as it will be clear then that you boarded there.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi All

This week I was stopped at Sandwell and Dudley Station but only had a return ticket for Smethwick Galton Bridge - B'ham New Street.

Sandwell and Dudley is one stop further than Smethwick GB and approximately £2.80 extra for a return fare.

I understand I will be waiting 4-6 weeks as this is being referred to their fraud team.

My big issue is that I have been buying digital return tickets from Smethwick GB to B'ham New Street for the last 18 months, 2 times each week. But the vast majority of these are legitimate. Even though Sandwell is a little closer to where I live, I travelled to Smethwick as the train fare was cheaper.

I am very worried that they will assume that all of these journeys are shorts fares but they are not.

Looking for any advice as I am remorseful and worried sick about the outcome.

I also need to continue using the train 2 times a week and am worried that if I buy a digital return ticket from Smethwick they could think I was short faring but if I go from Sandwell they would think all the past journeys were short fares.

Welcome to the forum!

From what we are seeing, West Midlands Railway ('WMR' - who manage Sandwell and Dudley, so it was most likely them who stopped you) are looking at travellers' ticket buying histories to see if there's a pattern of fare evasion. From what you say, at first glance they will think that this is what your history shows.

So the first thing is that it is important to be totally honest going forward. If you're travelling to/from Sandwell and Dudley, make sure your ticket is from there. If you're travelling from Smethwick GB, make sure your ticket is from there. Until this matter is settled, it might be worth taking photos (timed and dated) on your phone at Smethwick to show that you were really boarding the train there: that won't prove that you have been honest in the past but it will show that you are being honest now.

It's also important to be honest with yourself. Work out how many journeys you did short fare on. Remember that WMR are likely to have details of what tickets you bought, so you want to minimise the room for them to argue. Also look at your journeys from (presumably) home to the station: are WMR likely to believe that you will have travelled into Smethwick rather than Sandwell? Are the journeys as easy as each other on foot / by bike / bus /car / however you travel?

But you need to be prepared for this to be expensive to settle. WMT will probably write to you mentioning the Fraud Act: we have not yet seen any cases taken to court, and there is a view among contributors to this forum that the railway would be hard pressed to successfully prosecute. But you may decide that it is better to settle out of court to bring the matter to an end. If you do that, WMR will want the full fare (based on anytime single fares for the whole Sandwell to New Street journey) for each journey where they think you have fare dodged and you haven't managed to persuade them otherwise. They will also want maybe £100 - £200 to cover the cost of their investigation.

So work out what journeys you did fare dodge on, and what journeys you didn't. Ideally, you should go through your records and work this out for every journey. But if you can't do that, you probably have a fair idea of how often you did it (once a year? Once a month? Once a week? Every day?). Once you have come up with your honest answer, that will be what you will have available to tell WMR when they write to you to ask.

 

[Traveller14]

Thanks Fawkes Cat

My journey to Sandwell and Dudley is a 5 minute drive where as Smethwick GB is a 10 minute drive.

Should I be worried about incriminating myself if I tell them about previous times?

 

[Brissle Girl]

Thanks Fawkes Cat

My journey to Sandwell and Dudley is a 5 minute drive where as Smethwick GB is a 10 minute drive.

Should I be worried about incriminating myself if I tell them about previous times?

You need to wait and see what they ask you in the letter. If, as seems to be the case, it wasn’t the first time you have short fared then I suspect you will have a lot of difficulty in persuading the investigators that any out of court settlement shouldn’t assume that every ticket from Smethwick was. That will be costly, but maybe a price worth paying to avoid a prosecution for the one offence.

Out of interest though, do you pay to park at Smethwick, as any evidence of parking charges could help you.

 

[Traveller14]

You need to wait and see what they ask you in the letter. If, as seems to be the case, it wasn’t the first time you have short fared then I suspect you will have a lot of difficulty in persuading the investigators that any out of court settlement shouldn’t assume that every ticket from Smethwick was. That will be costly, but maybe a price worth paying to avoid a prosecution for the one offence.

Out of interest though, do you pay to park at Smethwick, as any evidence of parking charges could help you.

Thanks Brissle Girl

I tend to park in the side streets as the car park is not very big.

 

[X-City-WM]

I tend to park in the side streets as the car park is not very big.

Then they will want to know why you didn't travel from Sandwell & Dudely, which is not only closer to your home but also has a larger car park with 387 parking spaces vs Smethwick GB's 82.

 

[Traveller14]

Then they will want to know why you didn't travel from Sandwell & Dudely, which is not only closer to your home but also has a larger car park with 387 parking spaces vs Smethwick GB's 82.

Purely because I thought I was better off driving a further 5 minutes to reduce my fares. I had no problems parking so it was not an issue. Also, for a portion of the time I was selling my nan's flat in Bearwood, so easier to get to from Smethwick.

Welcome to the forum!

From what we are seeing, West Midlands Railway ('WMR' - who manage Sandwell and Dudley, so it was most likely them who stopped you) are looking at travellers' ticket buying histories to see if there's a pattern of fare evasion. From what you say, at first glance they will think that this is what your history shows.

So the first thing is that it is important to be totally honest going forward. If you're travelling to/from Sandwell and Dudley, make sure your ticket is from there. If you're travelling from Smethwick GB, make sure your ticket is from there. Until this matter is settled, it might be worth taking photos (timed and dated) on your phone at Smethwick to show that you were really boarding the train there: that won't prove that you have been honest in the past but it will show that you are being honest now.

It's also important to be honest with yourself. Work out how many journeys you did short fare on. Remember that WMR are likely to have details of what tickets you bought, so you want to minimise the room for them to argue. Also look at your journeys from (presumably) home to the station: are WMR likely to believe that you will have travelled into Smethwick rather than Sandwell? Are the journeys as easy as each other on foot / by bike / bus /car / however you travel?

But you need to be prepared for this to be expensive to settle. WMT will probably write to you mentioning the Fraud Act: we have not yet seen any cases taken to court, and there is a view among contributors to this forum that the railway would be hard pressed to successfully prosecute. But you may decide that it is better to settle out of court to bring the matter to an end. If you do that, WMR will want the full fare (based on anytime single fares for the whole Sandwell to New Street journey) for each journey where they think you have fare dodged and you haven't managed to persuade them otherwise. They will also want maybe £100 - £200 to cover the cost of their investigation.

So work out what journeys you did fare dodge on, and what journeys you didn't. Ideally, you should go through your records and work this out for every journey. But if you can't do that, you probably have a fair idea of how often you did it (once a year? Once a month? Once a week? Every day?). Once you have come up with your honest answer, that will be what you will have available to tell WMR when they write to you to ask.

Hi

In terms of a potential settlement. Paying the full fares for each journey (anytime singles) does this mean for each Return booking you would pay 2 x anytime singles?

Welcome to the forum!

From what we are seeing, West Midlands Railway ('WMR' - who manage Sandwell and Dudley, so it was most likely them who stopped you) are looking at travellers' ticket buying histories to see if there's a pattern of fare evasion. From what you say, at first glance they will think that this is what your history shows.

So the first thing is that it is important to be totally honest going forward. If you're travelling to/from Sandwell and Dudley, make sure your ticket is from there. If you're travelling from Smethwick GB, make sure your ticket is from there. Until this matter is settled, it might be worth taking photos (timed and dated) on your phone at Smethwick to show that you were really boarding the train there: that won't prove that you have been honest in the past but it will show that you are being honest now.

It's also important to be honest with yourself. Work out how many journeys you did short fare on. Remember that WMR are likely to have details of what tickets you bought, so you want to minimise the room for them to argue. Also look at your journeys from (presumably) home to the station: are WMR likely to believe that you will have travelled into Smethwick rather than Sandwell? Are the journeys as easy as each other on foot / by bike / bus /car / however you travel?

But you need to be prepared for this to be expensive to settle. WMT will probably write to you mentioning the Fraud Act: we have not yet seen any cases taken to court, and there is a view among contributors to this forum that the railway would be hard pressed to successfully prosecute. But you may decide that it is better to settle out of court to bring the matter to an end. If you do that, WMR will want the full fare (based on anytime single fares for the whole Sandwell to New Street journey) for each journey where they think you have fare dodged and you haven't managed to persuade them otherwise. They will also want maybe £100 - £200 to cover the cost of their investigation.

So work out what journeys you did fare dodge on, and what journeys you didn't. Ideally, you should go through your records and work this out for every journey. But if you can't do that, you probably have a fair idea of how often you did it (once a year? Once a month? Once a week? Every day?). Once you have come up with your honest answer, that will be what you will have available to tell WMR when they write to you to ask

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi

In terms of a potential settlement. Paying the full fares for each journey (anytime singles) does this mean for each Return booking you would pay 2 x anytime singles?

Yes - that's what it means.

There's all sorts of arguments about whether this is fair, but
- in terms of a negotiation, you're not in a strong position - the railway can threaten to take you to court if you don't agree to their terms and a lot of people see that as worse than paying a settlement even if the settlement is a lot of money
- the railway want to discourage people from fare dodging again. If the only sanction was to repay the fare that should have been paid in the first place, there would be some people who would carry on taking their chances, knowing that at worst they would just have to pay the 'normal' fare a bit later than someone who bought their ticket before getting on the train. By charging the highest possible fare, fare dodging (and being caught) is more expensive than paying the right fare at the right time.

 

[Haywain]

There's all sorts of arguments about whether this is fair, but
- in terms of a negotiation, you're not in a strong position - the railway can threaten to take you to court if you don't agree to their terms and a lot of people see that as worse than paying a settlement even if the settlement is a lot of money
- the railway want to discourage people from fare dodging again. If the only sanction was to repay the fare that should have been paid in the first place, there would be some people who would carry on taking their chances, knowing that at worst they would just have to pay the 'normal' fare a bit later than someone who bought their ticket before getting on the train. By charging the highest possible fare, fare dodging (and being caught) is more expensive than paying the right fare at the right time.

And a third point is that in most cases this is still working out as a cheaper deal than going to court and receiving a fine on tope of the fares and costs.

 

[P Binnersley]

If your phone has Google maps timeline (or equivalent) turned on, this can be used to show which station you used on a particular day.

 

[Snow1964]

If you live between two stations, and use both at different times, (for whatever reason, driving, bus, cycling, given lift to station etc) then I would work out the proportion.

You will need to add a clear concise sentence to you reply stating that you live between them and use both depending on traffic or lifts to station or whatever. Then state you calculate x were from Smethwick, Y from Sandwell out of Z journeys.

Work on the assumption that the clerk dealing with it doesn't know your local area and will assume worst case, so your are correcting the facts of a negative assumption and guess on prosecution teams part.

 

[Traveller14]

If your phone has Google maps timeline (or equivalent) turned on, this can be used to show which station you used on a particular day.

Hi, I do not have this turned on unfortunately. But one thing which I thought could help distinguish where I have travelled from is the time I have passed through the ticket barrier on arrival at Birmingham New Street if this is recorded.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi, I do not have this turned on unfortunately. But one thing which I thought could help distinguish where I have travelled from is the time I have passed through the ticket barrier on arrival at Birmingham New Street if this is recorded.

How would this distinguish where you travelled *from*? Aren’t the two stops in question adjacent to one another on the same line, served by the same trains?

 

[Traveller14]

How would this distinguish where you travelled *from*? Aren’t the two stops in question adjacent to one another on the same line, served by the same trains?

They are on the same line but there are trains from Smethwick GB which have not stopped at Sandwell and Dudley. I appreciate with the frequency of trains on this line there is only realistically 15-20 minutes windows.

 

[Jimbob52]

If you live between two stations, and use both at different times, (for whatever reason, driving, bus, cycling, given lift to station etc) then I would work out the proportion.

You will need to add a clear concise sentence to you reply stating that you live between them and use both depending on traffic or lifts to station or whatever. Then state you calculate x were from Smethwick, Y from Sandwell out of Z journeys.

Work on the assumption that the clerk dealing with it doesn't know your local area and will assume worst case, so your are correcting the facts of a negative assumption and guess on prosecution teams part.

I think the greater risk is that the clerk dealing with this does know the local area and sees the weak points in the OP's explanation.