First West Yorkshire & York discussion

[dodecahedron67]

First York 39601 (BV23NNT) Volvo B7L DD arrives in York for test run.


Tweet/Post: https://twitter.com/transportinyork/status/1724825743631196185

Not being used on test. Just here as cover whilst 36515 is at Sheffield

 

[YorkRailFan]

Not being used on test. Just here as cover whilst 36515 is at Sheffield

The tweet says that the bus was on test when the photo was taken.

 

[dodecahedron67]

The tweet says that the bus was on test when the photo was taken.

I mean it won’t get tested in service, sorry. It’ll remain in James St yard all the time it’s up here

 

[mattb7tl]

First is to introduce revenue protection officers on their vehicles in West Yorkshire. It's wild you see their management complain about rising costs but then proceed to create even more costs for an issue that quite literally does not exist, you can't bump a bus like you can a train, but congratulations to first bus for making bus travel feel more hostile?

https://twitter.com/FirstWestYorks/status/1725136722206318679?t=2ITH41NYyB6v4sjYpCDJsg&s=19

From Monday 27th November, we'll be welcoming our Revenue Protection Officers on board our buses across West Yorkshire. Our officers will be regularly riding across our network to check everyone is travelling with a valid ticket. Find out more here: http://firstbus.co.uk/yorkshirerpo

 

[dodecahedron67]

The problem very much does exist, whether or not I agree with RPOs being the solution is another matter…

 

[YorkRailFan]

First is to introduce revenue protection officers on their vehicles in West Yorkshire. It's wild you see their management complain about rising costs but then proceed to create even more costs for an issue that quite literally does not exist, you can't bump a bus like you can a train, but congratulations to first bus for making bus travel feel more hostile?

https://twitter.com/FirstWestYorks/status/1725136722206318679?t=2ITH41NYyB6v4sjYpCDJsg&s=19

I saw that, the only reason I can think of is the two sets of doors on the Optare Versas in York, among other vehicles, but even that is pathetic at best. When one boards the bus, they either buy a ticket from the driver, or show a ticket that is either paper or mobile that has been purchased in advance, and of course those with a bus pass present their bus pass. There is little to no opportunity for fare dodgers, this isn't a train which needs a conductor, not just for safety, but also for revenue protection.

 

[WAB]

First is to introduce revenue protection officers on their vehicles in West Yorkshire. It's wild you see their management complain about rising costs but then proceed to create even more costs for an issue that quite literally does not exist, you can't bump a bus like you can a train, but congratulations to first bus for making bus travel feel more hostile?

https://twitter.com/FirstWestYorks/status/1725136722206318679?t=2ITH41NYyB6v4sjYpCDJsg&s=19

There is the misuse of passes, improperly-claimed student discounts and short-faring. Doesn't help too that some drivers will also accept anything that looks remotely like a ticket. It also brings advantages for the passengers' feeling of safety through active surveillance

 

[Deerfold]

First is to introduce revenue protection officers on their vehicles in West Yorkshire. It's wild you see their management complain about rising costs but then proceed to create even more costs for an issue that quite literally does not exist, you can't bump a bus like you can a train, but congratulations to first bus for making bus travel feel more hostile?

https://twitter.com/FirstWestYorks/status/1725136722206318679?t=2ITH41NYyB6v4sjYpCDJsg&s=19

Do you have figures for how many fares are evaded on First in Yorkshire? I've had my ticket checked on buses in London. In all cases my ticket was valid and it didn't feel at all hostile.

I've also had it checked in West Yorkshire by Metro ticket counters. I'm not sure what they'd do if they found an invalid ticket.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Do you have figures for how many fares are evaded on First in Yorkshire? I've had my ticket checked on buses in London. In all cases my ticket was valid and it didn't feel at all hostile.

I've also had it checked in West Yorkshire by Metro ticket counters. I'm not sure what they'd do if they found an invalid ticket.

Likely charge you a fine (as the most you would be charged for a ticket is £2.)

 

[Volvodart]

First charge a standard fare which I cannot find online but should be displayed on all their buses. I think it is £30 in Aberdeen.

 

[GusB]

This would be a good time to remind people about linking to original sources We do require that any link is accompanied by a relevant quote.

Some details vary between the four different areas that this applies to, and I've only quoted from the Leeds section. The key point is that you're in for a £50 penalty (see bolded part):

Our Revenue Protection Officers

From Monday 27th November, we'll be welcoming our Revenue Protection Officers on board our buses across West Yorkshire.

www.firstbus.co.uk

From Monday 27th November, we'll be welcoming our Revenue Protection Officers on board our buses across West Yorkshire.

Our revenue protection officers will be regularly riding on our bus network to ensure everyone is travelling with a valid, correctly issued ticket. Any tickets purchased from the driver must be retained throughout the journey, and any tickets on our First Bus App must be valid and ready to show.

When travelling, please have your ticket ready to show - this might be:

A valid printed ticket for your journey
A valid ticket on the First Bus App
A valid ticket on any partner apps, such as MCard
A valid smartcard
Your Senior Bus Pass or Blind and Disabled Pass
The credit/debit card or the contactless device you used for Tap on Tap off journeys
Any other valid travel document
You must also be ready to show any ID associated with your travel ticket, for example your student ID, 16-18 photocard, or U19 photocard.

If you're unable to show a valid ticket to travel or the required ID for your ticket our Revenue Protection Officers will issue a standard fare charge of £50. To set up a payment plan for your standard fare charge, or to appeal your charge, click here.

 

[JD2168]

First is to introduce revenue protection officers on their vehicles in West Yorkshire. It's wild you see their management complain about rising costs but then proceed to create even more costs for an issue that quite literally does not exist, you can't bump a bus like you can a train, but congratulations to first bus for making bus travel feel more hostile?

https://twitter.com/FirstWestYorks/status/1725136722206318679?t=2ITH41NYyB6v4sjYpCDJsg&s=19

The revenue protection officers have been in action in South Yorkshire since the summer. They usually ask to see your ticket or last 4 digits of card if it is a card payment.

 

[noddingdonkey]

That could be amusing, the debit card I regularly use (issued by Chase) doesn't have the number printed on it, and the one displayed on the issuer's app is different to the one it scans as.

 

[jmh59]

"A valid ticket on the First Bus App" - the single fare tickets expire 30 minutes after activation. My wife uses these, has no cell service and the wifi on the busses here rarely works for her. So she activates a ticket at home then rushes off to the bus stop having checked where they are - 10 minute walk minimum for her so 20 minutes of life left on the ticket minus the time for the bus to arrive. It will have expired before she gets off the bus (it once expired as she boarded but she was allowed on). I wonder how a revenue protection officer will cater for that.

 

[GusB]

"A valid ticket on the First Bus App" - the single fare tickets expire 30 minutes after activation. My wife uses these, has no cell service and the wifi on the busses here rarely works for her. So she activates a ticket at home then rushes off to the bus stop having checked where they are - 10 minute walk minimum for her so 20 minutes of life left on the ticket minus the time for the bus to arrive. It will have expired before she gets off the bus (it once expired as she boarded but she was allowed on). I wonder how a revenue protection officer will cater for that.

I don't see the logic in using mobile tickets if there is no cell service! Wouldn't it be better for your wife to switch to a network that does provide coverage, then she could activate the ticket as the bus is arriving?

 

[jmh59]

I don't see the logic in using mobile tickets if there is no cell service! Wouldn't it be better for your wife to switch to a network that does provide coverage, then she could activate the ticket as the bus is arriving?

Ah sorry I mean she does not have a mobile contract at all. A cell service at say a fiver a month is 60 quid a year and she uses the bus once a week for maybe 10 months. Almost all other times we are together and I have a mobile contract, or she has wifi here and at work. So for her it's an expense that simply makes no sense.

In reality she now just carries £2 coins and uses those but the issue here is with the expiry of the ticket regardless - the journey would take more than 30 minutes in heavy traffic even if she activated the ticket as she got on the bus so the ticket would expire before she got off, and some journeys (not hers) are a lot longer.

 

[GusB]

Ah sorry I mean she does not have a mobile contract at all. A cell service at say a fiver a month is 60 quid a year and she uses the bus once a week for maybe 10 months. Almost all other times we are together and I have a mobile contract, or she has wifi here and at work. So for her it's an expense that simply makes no sense.

In reality she now just carries £2 coins and uses those but the issue here is with the expiry of the ticket regardless - the journey would take more than 30 minutes in heavy traffic even if she activated the ticket as she got on the bus so the ticket would expire before she got off, and some journeys (not hers) are a lot longer.

As long as the ticket is valid when boarding, it shouldn't be a problem if it expires before the journey is completed.

mTickets FAQ's

mTickets are the most convenient way to buy tickets 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Simply download the First Bus App and you’ll be able to buy tickets on your phone any time of day. With a wide range available, including weekly and monthly tickets, you can make your purchase in advance. Simply...

www.firstbus.co.uk

The validity of single tickets varies across each First Bus region. For the most part, single tickets will remain valid for 30 minutes once activated. The app will remind you of this before activating the ticket, to avoid any misactivation.


We advise customers to only activate a ticket when ready to use it.

If the ticket expires after already being scanned, but while you are still on the bus, this is not a problem. The ticket is valid for the entirety of that single trip, and you do not need to purchase another ticket while on the bus.

Whether or not this works in practice is another matter, of course, but anyone checking tickets should be aware of this and recognise that some journeys will take longer.

 

[SCH117X]

Doesn't the app retain a list of recently expired tickets? Transdevs does, although slightly hidden under the settings menu.

 

[jmh59]

Thanks for that FAQ link, I must admit I've not looked for ages - but in her case I think the £2 coin is the better option anyway. As to whether the app stores ticket info yes it will, I was just concerned that the revenue protection officer sees an expired ticket and slaps a fine on but it seems that should not be the case.

 

[dodecahedron67]

You’ll be unlucky to run into one of the RPOs considering there’s 4 of them for the whole of Sheffield, Doncaster, Hudds, Halifax, Bradford, Leeds, and York…

 

[YorkRailFan]

You’ll be unlucky to run into one of the RPOs considering there’s 4 of them for the whole of Sheffield, Doncaster, Hudds, Halifax, Bradford, Leeds, and York…

I just went on 3 First York services and didn't see 1, although the buses were all so busy that a RPO probably couldn't get through.

 

[Seehof]

First York, two questions:
Why is it that they bother to have Uni liveried buses when they often stray onto non Uni routes?
Why does the saloon “ticketer” never work for swiping out and you have swipe out on the driver’s machine?
Thank you.

 

[dodecahedron67]

First York, two questions:
Why is it that they bother to have Uni liveried buses when they often stray onto non Uni routes?
Why does the saloon “ticketer” never work for swiping out and you have swipe out on the driver’s machine?
Thank you.

We don’t have the power to charge every bus fully overnight yet, so it’s a case of “what can go out, goes out” - livery-based allocations should get better in the not too distant future hopefully

As for the second point - ticketer is just a useless and unreliable system

 

[Seehof]

Hence a driver saying to me “I wish they would get rid of the crap - when it works you just get questions and it delays everybody getting off”.
Is there any official views coming from First yet about this or is this just a James Street depot view?

 

[dodecahedron67]

Depot view

 

[Seehof]

Thanks. Experience and the views of those who have to “use” them counts for a lot. Reminds me of those self service ticket machines they tried on the 4s. I told them they would not work from experience with such things on LT buses in the 70s!

When will more EVs especially Kites be delivered to York for service?

 

[MasterSpenny]

The West Yorkshire batch of GB Kite Electroliners are starting to be assigned registrations: according to buslistsontheweb.co.uk, 63570 has been assigned the registration ML73DZT.

 

[cnjb8]

The West Yorkshire batch of GB Kite Electroliners are starting to be assigned registrations: according to buslistsontheweb.co.uk, 63570 has been assigned the registration ML73DZT.

63569 is ML73DZS

 

[Seehof]

Are they not numbered in the 636xx series?

 

[MasterSpenny]

Are they not numbered in the 636xx series?

The first one across the whole group in Leicester is numbered 63501 (seen physically). From the press release when the order was announced:

First Bus places one of UK’s largest ever EV bus orders with UK manufacturer Wrightbus following DfT ZEBRA funding award​

https://firstgroup-plc.production.investis.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2022/31082022.aspx

The order will be split between the following five areas;

• Leicester (68 buses) in partnership with Leicester City Council.
• York (44 Buses) in partnership with City of York Council.
• Leeds (32 Buses) in partnership with the West Yorkshire Combined Authority.
• Norwich (15 Buses) in partnership with Norfolk County Council.
• Portsmouth (34 Buses) in partnership with Portsmouth City Council & Hampshire County Council.

From the above fleet number, I’ve put the numbers in the article in my calculator and added them up: therefore 63501 + 68 + 44 + 32 + 15 + 34 = 63694. So they are over 2 series: the 635xx and 636xx.