Flybe's new regional London City route takes off

[chorleyjeff]

From Flybe surely that is a bit incorrect. Surely if they were at Exeter St Davids, either in the buildings or the pavement and car park outside it isn't public space, its owned by the railway?

Doesn't matter who owns it ( freehold, leasehold,licence ? ) so long as the public has free access to come and go. Like in a shopping centre.

 

[starrymarkb]

Of course, the fares Flybe quote are advance fares (and clearly need to be booked in advance). Why do they then compare those fares to the most expensive anytime rail fares? Perhaps if they compared with the bargain basement advance fares (£14 standard and £22 first) they'd realise it's not such a good deal.

But are those available on the equivalent early peak trains? The Morning flight arrives in City Airport at 8am
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Doesn't matter who owns it ( freehold, leasehold,licence ? ) so long as the public has free access to come and go. Like in a shopping centre.

Try setting up a Coffee stall in a Shopping Centre and see how long it takes for security to move you on.

 

[TheEdge]

Doesn't matter who owns it ( freehold, leasehold,licence ? ) so long as the public has free access to come and go. Like in a shopping centre.

Which has the power to eject people from their property who don't have permission to be there.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Of course, the fares Flybe quote are advance fares (and clearly need to be booked in advance). Why do they then compare those fares to the most expensive anytime rail fares? Perhaps if they compared with the bargain basement advance fares (£14 standard and £22 first) they'd realise it's not such a good deal.

Also if using a Flybe service for a holiday trip, you would be travelling with luggage. How much do they charge per case on top of the quoted ticket price compared to FGWs free carriage of said items?

 

[starrymarkb]

Also if using a Flybe service for a holiday trip, you would be travelling with luggage. How much do they charge per case on top of the quoted ticket price compared to FGWs free carriage of said items?

You'd get the next tier up (All In) fare rather then a Flight Only. It's usually cheaper then adding baggage separately.

These flights are more targetted at business travellers who tend to travel with hand baggage only and do day trips. I've done day trips to Glasgow with Easyjet from Bristol and I'd say about 30% of pax are coming back the same day. Most others have Roll-aboard cases (Limited by volume, weight as much as you can lift) which are fine for one or two nights.

 

[21C101]

According to intelligence received* the flights coming back are only half full/empty (delete depending on level of pessimism) So its not all going Flybe's way instantly. Shocking, I'm sure.


*I was sat next to a suit on the train, and they were talking loudly on their phone about how their business partner had been on a flight back earlier. And yes I am a nosey parker

My guess is that you would need to fund losses for a year or two on a new route like that to build up enough demand to make a go of it.

 

[317 forever]

The LCY-EDI route at least is not new to Fly-BE. I rode it in 2002 but later it was withdrawn for a while.

 

[starrymarkb]

My guess is that you would need to fund losses for a year or two on a new route like that to build up enough demand to make a go of it.

They would. Though given the maintainance operation at Exeter they can use the route to rotate aircraft between bases, so even if the flight isn't fully profitable it still saves the cost of a ferry flight without pax

The Q400 has a very low breakeven load. Its possible to make money with 40-50% loads.

 

[higthomas]

A bit odd that the newspaper article said that FGW had previously had a "monopoly" on the London service...cough SWT...cough

As I posted earlier on another thread:

"There is also a new Flybe service from Exeter Airport.

A round Trip Exeter 06.35 arr City 07:55 dep city 16:40 arr Exeter 17:55 costs £174.98. Journey Time 1h 20 each way.

In comparison FGW first train 05.46, arrives Paddington 08.38 2h52 mins. £236 standard class anytime return £373 first class anytime, return same day in the peak. [there is also one at 06.52 arriving 09.00 2h 08]

SWT 05.10 Exeter -Waterloo arr 08.38 3h 36m £120 standard anytime return £199.20 first class anytime return same day in the peak."


If Flybe really want to wind certain people I could mention they could paint their planes green and cream and give them names like "Sir Herbert Walker" , "Oliver Bulleid" and Sir Brian Souter......

As someone said, that is not a direct comparison.
Looking tomorrow, and comparing the 0546 off Exeter and 1803 off Paddington, with the flybe flights:

Cheapest fare available:

• Train; £189.70 (Anytime single out, advance fare return)
• Plane; £114.98 (Just fly ticket both ways)

Price for a flexible fare:

• Train; £236 (Anytime return)
• Plane; £439.98 (All in ticket both ways)

Now, what I think that shows is that one should never book flexible plane tickets, but I would say it is also that the plane cannot be that full, since that is not their most expensive price of ticket.

Also whilst on the train you get the same service no matter what price you pay, on the plane there is a definite service differential.

 

[Clip]

According to intelligence received* the flights coming back are only half full/empty (delete depending on level of pessimism) So its not all going Flybe's way instantly. Shocking, I'm sure.


*I was sat next to a suit on the train, and they were talking loudly on their phone about how their business partner had been on a flight back earlier. And yes I am a nosey parker

Im not surprised as looking at the exeter return time thats not very convenient is it at 1640?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Also whilst on the train you get the same service no matter what price you pay, on the plane there is a definite service differential.

There isn't much of a service differential on Flybe. I think the only difference is the amount of hand luggage you can take on board, but with the Dash 8s most hand luggage has to go in the hold anyway as the lockers are too small for the bags.

 

[Butts]

Train travel has its place and air travel has its place. Both have strengths and both have weaknesses.

If you're wanting to be in the city centre then train travel has a huge advantage over air. But most people don't live in the city centre so airports aren't such an inconvenience. In Newcastle, for instance, the airport is just as convenient for most of the city as the central railway station is. City Airport in London is far more convenient for Docklands than Paddington is.

You have to get to the airport an hour early, and you have to take your shoes off at security. Big inconvenience. But then you also really need to be aiming to be at the station 30 minutes before departure to make sure nothing goes wrong.

As for high speed travel, he is obviously self-interested but he has a point. SNCF are losing hundreds of millions on TGV, to the extent they're seriously considering abolishing the buffet car and heavily restricting refunds. If the French can't make high speed train travel work, where the TGV offers serious time savings, how are the British going to make it work when the justification for the premium is saving ten minutes on a trip to Birmingham. Our existing High Speed services are losing money hand over fist.

What even if you are in Aberdeen or Inverness and want to get to London

Who told you you have to take your shoes off - it's random unless you have boots on.

 

[Olaf]

Presumably he'll also use that investment to develop something which could actually rival high speed rail; so we'll see a 'turn up and go' service with aircraft leaving every 30 to 60 minutes, which can hold 500 people or more, and their luggage, and allows them to simply walk into the airport, buy a ticket and get straight onto a plane and go. He'll obviously do away with the endless security kerfuffle and the extended check in times which go with it. And the enormous overheads of the airline industry definitely won't be a problem over a network of mega short haul routes, with so little opportunity to sell additional products and when you have the railway's well established Advance fares to compete with, not to mention the advantage of the railway generally delivering its passengers into city centres and providing it's own 'transfers' to all manner of other destinations... Or maybe regional air will just never be a suitable alternative in the UK.

Internal air services are normally aimed at the business sector; i.e. with service characteristics of full-fare, premium, peak-period travel. So they are focused on taking the cream, which raises operational costs for rail operators.
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Doesn't matter who owns it ( freehold, leasehold,licence ? ) so long as the public has free access to come and go. Like in a shopping centre.

I think the issue was that rail staff resorted to force; perhaps it would have been more appropriate to refer the presence of Flybe reps to the police.

 

[BananaRepublic]

How much do they charge per case on top of the quoted ticket price compared to FGWs free carriage of said items?

You'd get the next tier up (All In) fare rather then a Flight Only. It's usually cheaper then adding baggage separately.

The next fare tier up from "Just Fly" is "Get More".
The extra cost gives you an inclusive 20kg hold baggage allowance, pre-selection of seats and some other perks.
On Exeter - LCY it costs £23 extra.

If all you want is the Hold baggage allowance, it is always cheaper just to pay for a bag on the cheaper "Just Fly" ticket.
Prices are for each leg of the flight.
15kg = £14.99
20kg = £15.99
23kg = £20.98
etc.

I fly on the Flybe Dash 8 Q400's on about six or more return trips a year and although the overhead lockers are a lot smaller and tighter for cabin bags, than in larger aircraft, you can still fit a regulation size Flybe, Ryanair, BA etc, type bag in there. as long as it hasn't been over stuffed and expanded. I have never had to have my cabin luggage put in the hold, but my wife has on just one occasion out of lots of flights.


Out of curiosity, I've just looked at Exeter - London City for next Tuesday (25th Nov), a week today for a day return on the cheapest Just Fly ticket.

0630 from Exeter £43.41
2030 from LCY £56.57
Total £99.98

The flexible business fare is obviously much more expensive, but so is an open anytime return rail fare (well over £200).
First class rail is about £373 return.

The cheapest FGW available today for the same date (25th Nov) is showing as £117.70, for an early morning departure.
An off peak return (£101) is not available until much later, arriving in London at 1124.
A super off peak return gets you into London at 1223 for £80.50, but half the day has gone by then.

One option is to fly to London in the morning and return by rail. It will only save about £10 and involve two and a half hours crammed in a busy train.

It will be interesting to see if Flybe can made this route work.

 

[chorleyjeff]

But are those available on the equivalent early peak trains? The Morning flight arrives in City Airport at 8am
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Try setting up a Coffee stall in a Shopping Centre and see how long it takes for security to move you on.

Still a public place.
Try setting up a coffee stall without permission on any high street and see what happens.
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Which has the power to eject people from their property who don't have permission to be there.

But it is nevertheless a public place.

 

[Butts]

Internal air services are normally aimed at the business sector; i.e. with service characteristics of full-fare, premium, peak-period travel. So they are focused on taking the cream, which raises operational costs for rail operators.--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I think the issue was that rail staff resorted to force; perhaps it would have been more appropriate to refer the presence of Flybe reps to the police.

This is utter garbage - I regularly fly from Birmingham to Edinburgh for about £60 return which taking into account the speed is extremely good value.

Weekday Fares on Flybe's new service to LCY from EDI are readily available from £39.99 in either direction.

I pointed out a fare from BHX to ABZ for someone considering traveling by train on another thread that was cheaper and warp speed compared to the train.

Air must be compared with 1st Class Travel on the Railways due to it's speed.

 

[Olaf]

This is utter garbage - I regularly fly from Birmingham to Edinburgh for about £60 return which taking into account the speed is extremely good value.

Weekday Fares on Flybe's new service to LCY from EDI are readily available from £39.99 in either direction.

I pointed out a fare from BHX to ABZ for someone considering traveling by train on another thread that was cheaper and warp speed compared to the train.

Air must be compared with 1st Class Travel on the Railways due to it's speed.

The comparisons you make are valid as far as they go, but bare in mind that the operator could not scale that to accommodate the bulk of traffic with a comparable frequency of service.