Formal offer to ASLEF by RDG

[TheBigD]

The 9% covered 2 years. 5% for this year and 4% for next. So not brilliant at all. Lower paid staff got a higher % but I don't think drivers would qualify as lower paid employees, unless they were being compared to Premier League footballers.

As for why RDG / the government thought drivers would accept this offer. I doubt they did think that.

Last year and this year. 5% (min £1750) backdated to 01/01/22, 4% backdated to 01/10/22.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

"But the union said accepting the offer would have meant no further strike action could take place"

Whether you are in favour of the strikes or against them - surely the above statement is not exactly news - if you agree a deal you can't then call more strikes (!!)

The issue around that being RMT would likely have settled the 2022 dispute, but can't accept it as RDG have tied the no strings offer to the 2023 offer which is riddled with horrific changes to terms & conditions. It means that if they accept the 1st year offer, they cannot refuse or strike against the details in the 2nd year that aren't fully formed given it's just a framework in its current state.

 

[Tezza1978]

The issue around that being RMT would likely have settled the 2022 dispute, but can't accept it as RDG have tied the no strings offer to the 2023 offer which is riddled with horrific changes to terms & conditions. It means that if they accept the 1st year offer, they cannot refuse or strike against the details in the 2nd year that aren't fully formed given it's just a framework in its current state.

That makes more sense then in terms of their position. Poorly worded by the news article.

 

[jon0844]

Choosing FA Cup Final day suggests ASLEF aren't concerned about public support, because they've just guaranteed pushing down public support for railway industrial action from its current, already rather low, ~40%.

There aren't that many people going to the final in the grand scheme of things. As said before, chances are the Government won't be phased by this - although perhaps the FA might put some pressure on them.

And as also said, Man United fans can probably walk to the stadium or hop on a bus...

 

[Thirteen]

I do wonder if targeting Eurovision might backfire on both unions. I know they avoided the Coronation for obvious reasons but it'll end up hurting Liverpool than the TOCs

 

[dk1]

I do wonder if targeting Eurovision might backfire on both unions. I know they avoided the Coronation for obvious reasons but it'll end up hurting Liverpool than the TOCs

Not sure how it will backfire.

 

[Annetts key]

Whatever the offer i think it should be put to the members

So, are you saying, no matter who won the general election, before each piece of legislation is passed into law, we should have a referendum on it?

 

[Bantamzen]

So, are you saying, no matter who won the general election, before each piece of legislation is passed into law, we should have a referendum on it?

What a strange analogy. I'm not sure when unions gained the same kind of power that a government did...

But here's how things tend to pan out in a long running dispute. At first most of the membership is behind the union, the membership wants better pay, T&Cs etc. And they are prepared for a long one. But as time goes on, members start to feel the pinch. The cost of strike after strike starts to bite, it starts to cause issues with personal finances and even relationships. And in the workplace tensions rise as some member's resolve starts to wobble, pressure starts to grow between them and the member's still determined to see the dispute through.

When this happens it can start to become difficult for reps on the ground to simply gauge the mood by talking to members, especially if there is peer pressure to keep supporting the action. So allowing members to have their say at pivotal moments, say when a new offer comes across the table, gives all members the chance to have their say and help drive the outcome. If this doesn't happen, those members struggling to keep with the action will start to drift back. And when this happens, well it should go without saying but this gives the employer the upper hand not just in the current dispute but in future ones. I know because I was a TU rep in a long running dispute that went on too long and totally undermined the entire union because whilst the top table was still solidly behind striking, the membership wasn't.

It may be that ASLEF members are solidly behind it, and if so there is nothing to be lost by taking it to a vote. But if they are not and the top table keeps asking members to lose more and more income it could damage the union and it's members in the long run. Or they could be like the government and do what they want and stuff the consequences.

 

[Annetts key]

Private coach operators around Greater Manchester will be delighted as I'm sure the bookings will be flooding in. Who knows, perhaps they'll become more popular still as the railways rattle themselves apart...??

With respect, how can a train that can’t move, because there is no driver, rattle itself apart?
Similarly, with considerably less trains running, how can the infrastructure rattle itself apart?

 

[irish_rail]

There's no way this can backfire as turning down a 4 percent pay offer with some pretty atrocious strings attached, doesn't look attractive, even to the most ardent Mail / Sun / Express reader. Set against a backdrop of junior doctors demanding 35 percent and other proffessions all rejecting much more generous offers, it'll be hard for the right wing media to spin this one against the rail unions. And as an Aslef member, I can conclusively say that deal is utterly b*locks. There's no way around it. Total delay tactics from the DFt to save the Coronation. Very sad, and its the poor passengers (as well as Union members who can ill afford to lose pay) who now suffer. Thanks Rishi, hopefully people will look at what the Tories are doing in wrecking the country when they go to the ballot box on May 4th....

 

[Bantamzen]

With respect, how can a train that can’t move, because there is no driver, rattle itself apart?
Similarly, with considerably less trains running, how can the infrastructure rattle itself apart?

Oh good grief, you know exactly what I meant...

There's no way this can backfire as turning down a 4 percent pay offer with some pretty atrocious strings attached, doesn't look attractive, even to the most ardent Mail / Sun / Express reader. Set against a backdrop of junior doctors demanding 35 percent and other proffessions all rejecting much more generous offers, it'll be hard for the right wing media to spin this one against the rail unions. And as an Aslef member, I can conclusively say that deal is utterly b*locks. There's no way around it. Total delay tactics from the DFt to save the Coronation. Very sad, and its the poor passengers (as well as Union members who can ill afford to lose pay) who now suffer. Thanks Rishi, hopefully people will look at what the Tories are doing in wrecking the country when they go to the ballot box on May 4th....

Keep telling yourself that, the railways are hurtling towards getting the prestigious award of Scapegoat for the Government 2023. The Tories can't hit the NHS too much yet, it might risk devaluing it before being ripped up even further and sold to the preferred bidder. As for the elections next month, what happens in local councils won't matter if the Tories have been handed the spectre of the big, bad unions to sell to their base support and the Daily Mail. I can see the headlines now...

"Greedy train drivers inflict misery for tens of thousands of FA Cup / Eurovision fans" (even though the latter will be affected by an RMT strike). Just remember, you read it here first...

 

[brick60000]

But the conditions the government wants to impose won't actually improve productivity

Whether you like the terms that are in the offer or not, this statement is incorrect.

It’s the very fact that they will improve productivity, to the (argued) detriment of members, that the union doesn’t like the offer….!

I’m sure nobody would be turning down a payrise for conditions that made you less productive….

 

[irish_rail]

"Greedy train drivers inflict misery for tens of thousands of FA Cup / Eurovision fans" (even though the latter will be affected by an RMT strike). Just remember, you read it here first...

But thats my point. How can anyone possibly accuse train drivers of greed for turning down 4 percent. That's very poor in the current situation, and below other industries. And, unlike other industries I suspect, train drivers almost certainly WOULD accept 4 percent where the ridiculous strings not attached to the deal. As drivers, we are the most profit generating people on the railway, and yet still the government want more. I'm sorry but working a 6 day week (ie forced to work my sundays) just isn't for me, especially when that 3am alarm goes!

 

[brick60000]

As drivers, we are the most profit generating people on the railway

I understand the sentiment, but statements like this just get other railway colleagues’ backs up, and then you’re onto a losing battle internally.

Driver Managers assess competency. If you’re not competent you aren’t driving any trains.

Train Planners make the timetable, plan the rolling stock and crews. There’s no trains without a plan.

HR manage your employment. There’s no railway without railway staff.

Ad infinitum.

Drivers are no more important than anybody else in the railway.

 

[43066]

4%+4% with some reforms seems par for the course. I'm not hearing anyone explain what else can help make up for rail revenue being down 20% since 2019.

I’ve not heard anyone explain how these Ts and Cs changes make up for rail revenue being down - it’s much more about an opportunistic grab by a damaged, toxic and corrupt government who have an ideological hatred of trade unions and organised labour.

I suppose it’s easy to dismiss it as just “some reforms” as if it’s nothing, when you have absolutely no concept of working traincrew shifts. I haven’t seen any evidence of changes like this being imposed on other areas.

I know because I was a TU rep in a long running dispute that went on too long and totally undermined the entire union because whilst the top table was still solidly behind striking, the membership wasn't.

Well the difference here is that the membership are solidly behind striking.

"Greedy train drivers inflict misery for tens of thousands of FA Cup / Eurovision fans" (even though the latter will be affected by an RMT strike). Just remember, you read it here first...

We’ve read it here many, many times before. You’ve been saying exactly the same things for the last year and a half .

As drivers, we are the most profit generating people on the railway, and yet still the government want more. I'm sorry but working a 6 day week (ie forced to work my sundays) just isn't for me, especially when that 3am alarm goes!

100%. Any of our internal colleagues who think it’s a nice easy number are welcome to apply to go driving!

 

[irish_rail]

100%. Any of our internal colleagues who think it’s a nice easy number are welcome to apply to go driving!

You have to wander how many of the Government apologists would be happy to do a 6 day working week, with ridiculously early starts or late finishes. I suspect not too many. And the bigger question is, would you want to be on a train , driven by a bloke on his 6th 3am start in a row, inevitably fatigued? Why does the Dft not give a damn about fatigue anymore??!!

 

[deltic]

What ever the rights and wrongs of the proposed strike action the railways risk going the way of the coal industry. DfT are already looking at ways to significantly reduce operating costs including more service withdrawals, and even closing stations and lines are not off the agenda.

 

[irish_rail]

I'd also dispute the railway is still losing as much money as the Dft claims. A driver at Plymouth i was chatting to this week, reckons he had over 900 on board leaving Paddington on Monday this week on a midday departure to the south west. My own experiences (looking at Pax numbers on the TMS) are that passengers numbers on GWR are pretty decent. This tired adage that no one is travelling anymore gets less believable by the day.

 

[deltic]

I'd also dispute the railway is still losing as much money as the Dft claims. A driver at Plymouth i was chatting to this week, reckons he had over 900 on board leaving Paddington on Monday this week on a midday departure to the south west. My own experiences (looking at Pax numbers on the TMS) are that passengers numbers on GWR are pretty decent. This tired adage that no one is travelling anymore gets less believable by the day.

The railway is losing significant amounts of money compared to pre-covid, business travel is only 40% and commuting around 65%, it takes a lot of advance tickets to replace a full price first class one

 

[GardenRail]

I'd also dispute the railway is still losing as much money as the Dft claims. A driver at Plymouth i was chatting to this week, reckons he had over 900 on board leaving Paddington on Monday this week on a midday departure to the south west. My own experiences (looking at Pax numbers on the TMS) are that passengers numbers on GWR are pretty decent. This tired adage that no one is travelling anymore gets less believable by the day.

People are definitely traveling. Just not with expensive tickets as before COVID.

 

[ComUtoR]

What ever the rights and wrongs of the proposed strike action the railways risk going the way of the coal industry.

Is this a good thing ?

DfT are already looking at ways to significantly reduce operating costs including more service withdrawals, and even closing stations and lines are not off the agenda.

Those who are salivating at the prospect of ASLEF and the RMT collapsing and the Drivers and other TOC staff getting screwed over, need to remember that ultimately, it's still a public service.

Be very careful what you wish for.

 

[43066]

You have to wander how many of the Government apologists would be happy to do a 6 day working week, with ridiculously early starts or late finishes. I suspect not too many. And the bigger question is, would you want to be on a train , driven by a bloke on his 6th 3am start in a row, inevitably fatigued? Why does the Dft not give a damn about fatigue anymore??!!

Indeed. The answer is very few.

This tired adage that no one is travelling anymore gets less believable by the day.

Absolutely. People are flocking back, my operator in particular is now seeing significant overcrowding. This will get increasingly difficult for the government, and I suspect a sensible no-or-few-strings offer will look more and more tempting - we all know that’s all it would take to settle this. I can’t help thinking ASLEF should have done more earlier.

What ever the rights and wrongs of the proposed strike action the railways risk going the way of the coal industry. DfT are already looking at ways to significantly reduce operating costs including more service withdrawals, and even closing stations and lines are not off the agenda.

People have been saying that on here for years, too. We are the ones with our jobs on the line if it does close down, yet we are clearly happy to take the risk. What does that tell you?!

People are definitely traveling. Just not with expensive tickets as before COVID.

But that travel still has positive economic benefits - which is why the railway exists in the first place. It isn’t primarily there to generate revenue.

 

[Bevan Price]

But thats my point. How can anyone possibly accuse train drivers of greed for turning down 4 percent. That's very poor in the current situation, and below other industries. And, unlike other industries I suspect, train drivers almost certainly WOULD accept 4 percent where the ridiculous strings not attached to the deal. As drivers, we are the most profit generating people on the railway, and yet still the government want more. I'm sorry but working a 6 day week (ie forced to work my sundays) just isn't for me, especially when that 3am alarm goes!

When many drivers take home around £50-60k per year, like it or not, many of the public will think they are greedy to turn down a 4% offer. A lot of people get much less than £50k per year.

 

[Bantamzen]

But thats my point. How can anyone possibly accuse train drivers of greed for turning down 4 percent. That's very poor in the current situation, and below other industries. And, unlike other industries I suspect, train drivers almost certainly WOULD accept 4 percent where the ridiculous strings not attached to the deal. As drivers, we are the most profit generating people on the railway, and yet still the government want more. I'm sorry but working a 6 day week (ie forced to work my sundays) just isn't for me, especially when that 3am alarm goes!

Because away from the pay demands of certain sectors (mine included) 4% is pipe dream for an awful lot of workers.

Well the difference here is that the membership are solidly behind striking.

Then what would be the harm in demonstrating this with a vote. If anything it would confirm the solidarity rather than it be implied by the top brass.

We’ve read it here many, many times before. You’ve been saying exactly the same things for the last year and a half .

Not quite, I've been saying pick yer fights carefully for the last year and a half. And so far, well I'm not going to say I was right, but I'm certainly thinking it loudly..

 

[aleandrail]

Life doesn't revolve around the train service

That is so true. Despite all the disruption people have just carried doing what they normally do in there social lives

Man United fans can probably walk to the stadium or hop on a bus.

back in the sixties man United had 10,000 "cockney reds " following them. That makes this joke over 50 years old now.

 

[Mag_seven]

Can we ditch the football talk unless its about fans affected by the strike.

thanks

 

[ChrisC]

When many drivers take home around £50-60k per year, like it or not, many of the public will think they are greedy to turn down a 4% offer. A lot of people get much less than £50k per year.

I remember the appallingly low wages that my dad got as a driver on the railway in the 1970’s and 80’s. I remember how my parents really struggled to bring up a family on such low wages and how my parents struggled financially to help me to go to college to train as a teacher. He was always a very militant member of ASLEF and I still have his old ASLEF membership card. I also remember some of the extremely long shifts he worked and the going to and from work in the middle of the night.

When I retired from teaching 8 years ago after 36 years as a primary school teacher in my final years, even with all that experience I was earning around £37k a year. I know that I got the school holidays but during term time I was regularly working between 50 and 60 hours a week. Even now, 8 years later, experienced teachers, on the Upper Pay Scale, not those on the basic pay scale, will only be earning just over £40k a year.

 

[43066]

A lot of people get much less than £50k per year.

And? The kind of people who think everyone who earns more than them is “greedy”, are the kind of people whose views simply aren’t worth listening to. This is the definition of racing to the bottom; demonising those who try to stand up for themselves, while a cabinet of millionaires tell you the real enemy is the bloke down the road on a few quid more than you. It’s for the birds!

People who earn £50 - £70k + have bills commensurate with that, all of which have gone up since 2019 when many of us last had a pay rise.

Because away from the pay demands of certain sectors (mine included) 4% is pipe dream for an awful lot of workers.

But average wage growth in the economy is more than that (currently circa 6% averaged across both public and private sector I believe), and generally for no or fewer strings. Many sectors have seen significant growth into the double digit %s.

Then what would be the harm in demonstrating this with a vote. If anything it would confirm the solidarity rather than it be implied by the top brass.

No harm, but what would be the point? We don’t pay union dues because we want every decision to be made by plebiscite. Why keep a dog and bark yourself?

I’ve spent most of the day talking to actual real life ASLEF members and I can reassure you the union membership are happy and fully behind the “top brass” - if anything many think we should have done more earlier. So who are we supposed to be demonstrating this to, exactly?!

Not quite, I've been saying pick yet fights carefully for the last year and a half. And so far, well I'm not going to say I was right, but I'm certainly thinking it loudly..

Well, we have picked this one! We’re none too happy to be offered a lower % than the RMT either .

I’ll leave it there for now!

 

[winks]

I'd also dispute the railway is still losing as much money as the Dft claims. A driver at Plymouth i was chatting to this week, reckons he had over 900 on board leaving Paddington on Monday this week on a midday departure to the south west. My own experiences (looking at Pax numbers on the TMS) are that passengers numbers on GWR are pretty decent. This tired adage that no one is travelling anymore gets less believable by the day.

Exactly.

In fact if you listened to GBR transition team presentation at the IET they put it nearer to 90% passenger numbers returning not 80%.

 

[Master29]

Have to say the RDG really are showing themselves up to be a hopeless lobby group who work on the orders of the Govt. 4 / 4% was expected but a lot of changes re changes to sick arrangements and annual leave.

What is the annual leave entitlement for drivers ? Does this vary. It was put to me by a manger once that “we bow down to the drivers!”

Sounds like the govt want a fight with them too

Of course. The RDG are just government lackeys.

I'm sure they do want the dispute to end, they just aren't able / willing to offer what the membership wants.

No, they don't and they are certainly more than able to make that offer