GEML franchise 2016

[NotATrainspott]

I thought National Express had proposed to use brand new Intercity trains. Will the HSTs be more expensive to operate than new trains?

Abellio proposed releasing all the 170s and keeping all the Sprinters. However, after awarding Abellio the franchise Transport Scotland decided to increase the subsidy so that more diesel trains could be retained also with smaller Sprinters getting released in favour of keeping larger 170s.

Yes, they had. From what I gather they were offering the same 68+CAF Mk5 combination as First offered for TPE. I don't think that HSTs would be any more expensive to run over the franchise term, since their only capital value now is their scrap value plus the cost of Chilternising them, and so the ROSCOs would have to offer a relatively good deal. There's no need to spend money training staff or equipping depots either because of the existing HST/Mk3 expertise across the network.

However, the quality score isn't simply a factor of how new the fleet is, as there's plenty of other minor factors that add up. For instance, Abellio offered a big focus on bicycle integration drawing from Nederlandse Spoorwegen's domestic experience. Also, I don't think there would be much justification for Chilternised HSTs to have a significantly lower quality score than new stock, since from a passenger perspective they're as good as new if they have modern toilets, fast WiFi, power sockets and power doors. The massive increase in bicycle capacity enabled by the power cars links back to the overarching strategy for them too, which isn't going to hurt.

 

[AM9]

For all this talk of new trains, surely the big problem is not the wiring but the speeds possible on the route. The suburban bit from Liverpool St to Shenfield has always been handicapped by poor alignment. With a clear headway, the timing from Stratford to passing Shenfield is 15 minutes for 16 1/4 miles. Even with the benfit of the fast section between Shenfield and Chelmsford, the timing is 23 1/2 minutes for 26 miles. Unless something can be done about speeds on this section, the ambition for Norwich in 90 minutes will be difficult to achieve apart from a few trains virtually non-stop, even if very fast-accelerating new stock is used.

 

[QueensCurve]

Saying leaving the EU will allow us to scrap or change PRM-TSI is a bit like saying we can remove the 100kmh speed limits for HGVs over 7.5T as a result of leaving the EU even though they were limited to 60mph by UK law before the EU imposed a 62mph (100kmh) maximum.

My point was of course made in jest.

 

[Dave1987]

For all this talk of new trains, surely the big problem is not the wiring but the speeds possible on the route. The suburban bit from Liverpool St to Shenfield has always been handicapped by poor alignment. With a clear headway, the timing from Stratford to passing Shenfield is 15 minutes for 16 1/4 miles. Even with the benfit of the fast section between Shenfield and Chelmsford, the timing is 23 1/2 minutes for 26 miles. Unless something can be done about speeds on this section, the ambition for Norwich in 90 minutes will be difficult to achieve apart from a few trains virtually non-stop, even if very fast-accelerating new stock is used.

The line speed between Chelmsford and Stratford on the mains is basically all the same 90mph (85 between Chelmsford and Shenfield on the up road). Line speed doesn't get up to 100 until after Chelmsford. A lot of time savings could be made by just increasing the line speed up to 100 all the way from Stratford to Chelmsford. Also there will be more time saved from the new stocks acceleration and being able to get up to line speed between some stations which you just can't do with the 321's and their old motors.

 

[QueensCurve]

The Great Eastern renewal scheme makes use of what is now a bespoke electrification system, named GEFF (Great Eastern Furrer+Frey) from which Series 1 is partially developed. There's good commonality with parts (they also find use in areas of the Series 2 schemes - there's some Series 1 parts at Glasgow Queen Street, involved in the transition from Series 2 to ROC.

GEFF is used rather than Series 1 for a couple of reasons - it pre-dates Series 1, so that's sort of one big reason, but even if Series 1 existed at the time, it couldn't be used, it needs a semi-bespoke design to make use of the old structures and because of clearance on the actual portals. They're actually too low to fit both contact wire and catenary wire under the portal and maintain air gap clearance, which rules out the usual Series 1 cantilever arms, and requires a custom solution which has the registration arm on a separately insulated drop tube, with the catenary wire held on a second (usually horizontal) tube attached to a second insulator and onto the portal.

The GEFF looks pretty good too. A pity the aesthetics couln't have been maintained in the derivatives.

 

[slouch152]

(delurking)

I'm intrigued by the choice to order bi-mode units instead of straight DMUs. Does it imply:

that it's not possible to buy DMUs any more;
that there's no price advantage in buying DMUs so you might as well have the flexibility;
or that there's some strategic reason to buy bi-modes?

Considering the UK fleet as a whole, given the existence of the 80x bi-modes for long-distance work it makes sense for there to be a supply of bi-mode suburban/regional units as well, but is East Anglia a likely target for electrification any decade soon?

 

[NotATrainspott]

(delurking)

I'm intrigued by the choice to order bi-mode units instead of straight DMUs. Does it imply:

that it's not possible to buy DMUs any more;
that there's no price advantage in buying DMUs so you might as well have the flexibility;
or that there's some strategic reason to buy bi-modes?

Considering the UK fleet as a whole, given the existence of the 80x bi-modes for long-distance work it makes sense for there to be a supply of bi-mode suburban/regional units as well, but is East Anglia a likely target for electrification any decade soon?

East Anglia isn't a bad place to use bi-modes given that so much of their network is electrified. Many of their non-electrified services spend at least some time under the wires, and there's the possibility of running through services to London from unelectrified branch line destinations.

I think one of the factors involved is that CAF are now busy building trains and carriages for Northern, TransPennine Express and Caledonian Sleeper,. As they're supposedly the only other company offering a self-powered train, Stadler would be the only option. Stadler doesn't appear to offer any mechanical transmission DMUs, and if you're using electric transmission you may as well include a transformer and a pantograph too.

 

[Richard1960]

I like the sound of the fact most Norwich-Cambridge trains will continue to Stanstead Airport,under the new franchise presumably when the new station in Cambridge is open.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

...is East Anglia a likely target for electrification any decade soon?

Yes.

Cambridge to Ipswich and Ely to Norwich are included in the East-West Rail electrification plan.

There's also a long-standing freight industry initiative to electrify Felixstowe to Nuneaton following the gauge clearing upgrade, that adds in Chippenham Jn to Ely

 

[Bald Rick]

The line speed between Chelmsford and Stratford on the mains is basically all the same 90mph (85 between Chelmsford and Shenfield on the up road). Line speed doesn't get up to 100 until after Chelmsford. A lot of time savings could be made by just increasing the line speed up to 100 all the way from Stratford to Chelmsford. Also there will be more time saved from the new stocks acceleration and being able to get up to line speed between some stations which you just can't do with the 321's and their old motors.

If the linespeed was increased to 100mph all the way from Stratford to Chelmsford, the time saving would be 90 seconds.

 

[LAX54]

All this shouting about nice new trains, all shiny and posh, maybe for the likes of the 153/156 replacements, but new is not always better, we need to hang on the hauled sets on the IC route, beit Mk 3's re-engined, or Mk 4 sets ....both far superior to an EMU !

 

[J-2739]

All this shouting about nice new trains, all shiny and posh, maybe for the likes of the 153/156 replacements, but new is not always better, we need to hang on the hauled sets on the IC route, beit Mk 3's re-engined, or Mk 4 sets ....both far superior to an EMU !

What makes you say that? How is a Mk 4 more superior than say, a Pendolino?

 

[grumblingalong]

What makes you say that? How is a Mk 4 more superior than say, a Pendolino?

Because BR built the Mk4s, anything that's a practical EMU is the spawn of the devil and everyone in Anglia is allergic to them.

I imagine.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Because BR built the Mk4s, anything that's a practical EMU is the spawn of the devil and everyone in Anglia is allergic to them.

Actually they were built by GEC at Washwood Heath (to BR spec).
Like the 156 Sprinters and 465/2 Networkers.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Personally I'd always liked HST's and MK3's but never been a fan of the MK4s since refurbishment, hate the seating (realizing I'm in a minority) and hated the MK2s as well.

Nothing can touch the Velaro for an intercity train in my book (shame we haven't seen any from some of the proposed bids they were on in franchises over the years apart from on Eurostar) although the ex Hull Trains 222s, the 444s and the 180s have honorable mentions.

 

[LAX54]

Because BR built the Mk4s, anything that's a practical EMU is the spawn of the devil and everyone in Anglia is allergic to them.

I imagine.

Maybe allergic, maybe not ! but EMU's will bring it to commuter transport status, however not that much increase in overall journey time, but we are looking at some 4 years minimum before we find out

 

[samuelmorris]

but why will they? The interior spec of the units has not, to my knowledge, been discussed in the bid announcement. Pendolinos and for what it's worth, Velaros are EMUs, are they considered commuter status? The incessant association with the multiple-unit as a traction concept and the role of a short-distance commuter train baffles me. That the traction is distributed throughout the train is of zero relevance to the way the interior is configured. I may end up eating my words if the Norwich units are configured commuter-style but I just don't see it happening, why else would they be using a distinct fleet, even going to the lengths of changing manufacturer, for those services? If the intention was to run regular outer suburban EMUs on the route, they'd just lump it in with the others in the Aventra fleet, which I'm sure will still end up being configured 2+2 highback as is the current trend (something that I agree with).

Looking at the chronology on the DfT website, it's much sooner than 4 years - precisely 4 years from now almost the entire fleet are supposed to be deployed (we will see about that!), it'll be 30 months before the first units enter service which means there will be visible signs of the units on test and images of their interiors well before that. I am more than sceptical that they won't have the bulk of the fleet running by the start of 2020, but I think having at least a few units running around in H1 2019 is still very doable. To say I'm looking forward to trying them out is an understatement. I don't share the antipathy towards 321s that many others do, but having quiet air-conditioned units serving my region in the peaks can't come soon enough.

 

[LAX54]

They will be squeezed in somewhere:
"By 2021, there will be more than 32,000 more seats on services arriving at London Liverpool Street in the morning peak",

 

[samuelmorris]

If that clause alone makes you think the express Norwich services will have extra seats crammed in, bear in mind there will only be 10 units allocated to that route, or in raw vehicle numbers, 11.5%. Is it not possible that these extra seats will come from running longer services? (replacing 8-car in favour of 10/12)

 

[LAX54]

If that clause alone makes you think the express Norwich services will have extra seats crammed in, bear in mind there will only be 10 units allocated to that route, or in raw vehicle numbers, 11.5%. Is it not possible that these extra seats will come from running longer services? (replacing 8-car in favour of 10/12)

The Norwich service will not be any longer, they run 10 now, Ok we lose the Class 90 and DVT, but depends how long the 'droop snoop' is each end !

The other issue could be that the 10 units allocated for the Norwich services will be fully taken up with the diagrams every day, no spares, no failures, so I assume some of the Norwich runs, will be with the higher density seating style train.
By the way does anyone know where the proposed 'depot' will be at Manningtree? the old Wardle Storey place, or the old yard on the up side London side of the Station ?

 

[Dave1987]

By the way does anyone know where the proposed 'depot' will be at Manningtree? the old Wardle Storey place, or the old yard on the up side London side of the Station ?

From what I gather the brownfield sites near Brantham just past the wash are where it's going to be located.

 

[swt_passenger]

They will be squeezed in somewhere:
"By 2021, there will be more than 32,000 more seats on services arriving at London Liverpool Street in the morning peak",

Most similar DfT statements in the past have turned out to be counted over a full week, so probably best to divide by 5 first...

 

[dgl]

Remember EMU doesn't have to mean commuter grade train, all of the modern high seed trains are EMU's and they seem alright for long distances, and just look at the 442 and 444 both great long distance trains yet both EMU's and to most people very comfortable.

 

[LAX54]

From what I gather the brownfield sites near Brantham just past the wash are where it's going to be located.

That will be interesting for the locals, they were up in arms when it was planned for housing there ! Bit of an incline too to the yard then

 

[LAX54]

Remember EMU doesn't have to mean commuter grade train, all of the modern high seed trains are EMU's and they seem alright for long distances, and just look at the 442 and 444 both great long distance trains yet both EMU's and to most people very comfortable.

indeed, they were very comfy and a good ride, and what are 442's ? a derivative of the Mark 3

 

[chubs]

There is no possible reason to say an mk3/4 is better than an emu which we haven't seen the spec or design of, other than an enthusiasts point of view.

As a regular traveller on the route I'm really looking forward to new trains too, and the Stansted extensions.

 

[LAX54]

There is no possible reason to say an mk3/4 is better than an emu which we haven't seen the spec or design of, other than an enthusiasts point of view.

As a regular traveller on the route I'm really looking forward to new trains too, and the Stansted extensions.

Well in 4 years we will find out ! maybe spec specified by Abellio, or could be just off the shelf units. what ever, they will look nice and shiny to start with

 

[samuelmorris]

The Norwich service will not be any longer, they run 10 now, Ok we lose the Class 90 and DVT, but depends how long the 'droop snoop' is each end !

The other issue could be that the 10 units allocated for the Norwich services will be fully taken up with the diagrams every day, no spares, no failures, so I assume some of the Norwich runs, will be with the higher density seating style train.
By the way does anyone know where the proposed 'depot' will be at Manningtree? the old Wardle Storey place, or the old yard on the up side London side of the Station ?

Two full extra vehicles' worth is quite a substantial capacity increase. I haven't seen anything too precise regarding vehicle length, but on the assumption that they are 24m vehicles to make up the 240m total length, that's a fair 16% increase in 'passenger vehicle' space.

Also, again, this is my point - that 32000 extra seats I thought applied to the franchise as a whole, not even just including the GE but also the WA as well. Although you might hope this not to be the case, there's no obligation for a single one of those 32000 extra seats to be from intercity services.

As far as making up the required diagrams is concerned, I think from what we've seen so far, at least one of the Norwich diagrams being operated by a conventional commuter EMU is a certainty - for now I'm going to go with it being an 'all stations' affair like the xx02 service to Ipswich is now. However, given that there will be a direct service to Lowestoft operating in addition to it, I'm curious to see how that is actually scheduled.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Hope I'm wrong but the new EMUs I'm fairly certain are the cheaper end of the market and will have denser seating. Realistically that was always going to happen, at least they've kept the intercity spec. The plus is that like other recently emu replacement programs, they'll probably need replacing more frequently than the loco / coach combos.

In the end as long as it remains intercity spec and runs on time and reliability is good then anything else is bonus.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Two full extra vehicles' worth is quite a substantial capacity increase. I haven't seen anything too precise regarding vehicle length, but on the assumption that they are 24m vehicles to make up the 240m total length, that's a fair 16% increase in 'passenger vehicle' space.

Also, again, this is my point - that 32000 extra seats I thought applied to the franchise as a whole, not even just including the GE but also the WA as well. Although you might hope this not to be the case, there's no obligation for a single one of those 32000 extra seats to be from intercity services.

As far as making up the required diagrams is concerned, I think from what we've seen so far, at least one of the Norwich diagrams being operated by a conventional commuter EMU is a certainty - for now I'm going to go with it being an 'all stations' affair like the xx02 service to Ipswich is now. However, given that there will be a direct service to Lowestoft operating in addition to it, I'm curious to see how that is actually scheduled.

If the Stadler stock is articulated as per the CGI artwork released, the carriage lengths are going to be around 18.5 metres.