German Rail in decline ?

[duesselmartin]

DB usual does that when a strike is on the horizon.

 

[Goldfish62]

DB usual does that when a strike is on the horizon.

True.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I've just added travel disruption, including strikes to my travel insurance for the remainder of the year!

 

[Goldfish62]

I've just added travel disruption, including strikes to my travel insurance for the remainder of the year!

If you don't mind me asking who did you use? I'm also trying to do the same and most don't seem to cover strike action.

 

[YorkshireBear]

If you don't mind me asking who did you use? I'm also trying to do the same and most don't seem to cover strike action.

Aviva, always have used em. But you have to add travel disruption (which includes other disruption as well as strike), and adds 50% to premium.

 

[Goldfish62]

Aviva, always have used em. But you have to add travel disruption (which includes other disruption as well as strike), and adds 50% to premium.

Ok, many thanks.

 

[TheSmiths82]

By far my worst railway delays ever have both been travelling through Germany. Once in 2005 and once in 2019. I have only been to Germany twice too so I think I have to be very unlucky. My over all impression though as compared to France I don't see what the fuss is about, to me the German railways didn't seem that much better than what we have in the UK.

 

[rvdborgt]

to me the German railways didn't seem that much better than what we have in the UK.

Punctuality of long distance trains sank to under 60% recently (+5'59" is still considered "on time"). Is that comparable to the UK?

 

[Austriantrain]

By far my worst railway delays ever have both been travelling through Germany. Once in 2005 and once in 2019. I have only been to Germany twice too so I think I have to be very unlucky. My over all impression though as compared to France I don't see what the fuss is about, to me the German railways didn't seem that much better than what we have in the UK.

Yes, timekeeping in France is good. But only useful if there actually is a train when and where you want to go, and often enough, there isn’t. The UK is *much* better. And Germany would be too, if they got their act together.

 

[Richard Scott]

My over all impression though as compared to France I don't see what the fuss is about, to me the German railways didn't seem that much better than what we have in the UK.

German Railways don't seem much better? I think they're much worse in all honesty, certainly in recent years.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

to me the German railways didn't seem that much better than what we have in the UK.

These things I would say are done better in Germany:

• Integrated ticketing: Tickets for bus/tram/regional rail/metro service are always integrated within a region, so you just buy a ticket to your destination and don't worry how you get there or which company it is
• Ultimate integrated ticketing: Deutschlandticket!
• Length of service: Even the most minor branch lines almost always have at least an hourly service starting at 4AM on weekdays and 6AM on Sundays. I was shocked on a recent visit to Walsall, which I thought was on a pretty major commuter route, to find the first train on Weekdays is 0600, and on Sundays at 0930, making it impossible to get to Birmingham before 10.
• Legroom(as a very tall person). Even regional trains are more spacious than recent British intercity trains. A typical regional train has more generious than a Pendelino. In British regional trains I literally don't fit and have to sit sideways.
• Seat width. As far as I know, there is no 3+2 seating on any German train
• Catering. All ICE trains have a sit down restaurant with waiter service and regular crockery and cutlery(albeit all the food is microwaved).

Of course, none of that matters if the train doesn't turn up or runs hopelessly late!

 

[renegademaster]

These things I would say are done better in Germany:

• Integrated ticketing: Tickets for bus/tram/regional rail/metro service are always integrated within a region, so you just buy a ticket to your destination and don't worry how you get there or which company it is
• Ultimate integrated ticketing: Deutschlandticket!
• Length of service: Even the most minor branch lines almost always have at least an hourly service starting at 4AM on weekdays and 6AM on Sundays. I was shocked on a recent visit to Walsall, which I thought was on a pretty major commuter route, to find the first train on Weekdays is 0600, and on Sundays at 0930, making it impossible to get to Birmingham before 10.
• Legroom(as a very tall person). Even regional trains are more spacious than recent British intercity trains. A typical regional train has more generious than a Pendelino. In British regional trains I literally don't fit and have to sit sideways.
• Seat width. As far as I know, there is no 3+2 seating on any German train
• Catering. All ICE trains have a sit down restaurant with waiter service and regular crockery and cutlery(albeit all the food is microwaved).

Of course, none of that matters if the train doesn't turn up or runs hopelessly late!

I went on a double decker regional train in the Passau area , probably one of the most of the uncomfortable train I had been on. Poor legroom, weird steps down and rock hard seats. I don't remember the operator but it has a light green livery. DB and OBB trains where generally more comfortable than modern British stock though

 

[williamn]

Punctuality of long distance trains sank to under 60% recently (+5'59" is still considered "on time"). Is that comparable to the UK?

Much worse than the UK.

 

[Krokodil]

Punctuality of long distance trains sank to under 60% recently (+5'59" is still considered "on time"). Is that comparable to the UK?

That's beginning to make Avanti look good.

 

[The exile]

By far my worst railway delays ever have both been travelling through Germany. Once in 2005 and once in 2019. I have only been to Germany twice too so I think I have to be very unlucky. My over all impression though as compared to France I don't see what the fuss is about, to me the German railways didn't seem that much better than what we have in the UK.

As well as the points mentioned elsewhere, a lot of the “fuss” is based on enthusiast experience over a long period where DB offered things that were rapidly disappearing from the UK scene - particularly lots of locomotive haulage, but also plenty of spare capacity in terms of stock / infrastructure/ tinetabling that led to a more resilient offering to the public (albeit a relatively inflexible one). When anything did go wrong, customer service of any kind was usually appalling.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Definitely in terms of reliability it is much worse than the UK, certainly in Yorkshire I am starting to find the railway becoming quite reliable, not sure if that's reflected in the numbers though.

But where Germany does win for me is in terms of the service, extensive ICE network, and the ICEs are really good trains in general. And also like others have said, really extensive regional network that English cities just don't have. Compare cities or similar sizes and in Germany their rail (and it's other public transport) is far superior in terms of service (when it runs) and ticketing.

If both the UK and Germany had 100% punctuality, for me Germany would be way ahead of the UK.

 

[Richard Scott]

Definitely in terms of reliability it is much worse than the UK, certainly in Yorkshire I am starting to find the railway becoming quite reliable, not sure if that's reflected in the numbers though.

But where Germany does win for me is in terms of the service, extensive ICE network, and the ICEs are really good trains in general. And also like others have said, really extensive regional network that English cities just don't have. Compare cities or similar sizes and in Germany their rail (and it's other public transport) is far superior in terms of service (when it runs) and ticketing.

If both the UK and Germany had 100% punctuality, for me Germany would be way ahead of the UK.

The problem with the ICE network is lack of frequency, in UK most intercity routes are at least hourly, if not more frequent. This is not the case on many German routes.
We also have lots of integrated tickets around major cities, problem is often finding information about them or getting a ticket machine to sell one; this is one area where Germany I much better - ticket machines sell a much wider range of tickets and generally are easier to use.

 

[The exile]

The problem with the ICE network is lack of frequency, in UK most intercity routes are at least hourly, if not more frequent. This is not the case on many German routes.
We also have lots of integrated tickets around major cities, problem is often finding information about them or getting a ticket machine to sell one; this is one area where Germany I much better - ticket machines sell a much wider range of tickets and generally are easier to use.

Also that urban areas have good “medium distance” networks (usually trams) filling the gap between heavy rail and bus - with, as others have pointed out, integrated ticketing, timetabling and planning.

 

[Goldfish62]

The problem with the ICE network is lack of frequency, in UK most intercity routes are at least hourly, if not more frequent. This is not the case on many German routes.
We also have lots of integrated tickets around major cities, problem is often finding information about them or getting a ticket machine to sell one; this is one area where Germany I much better - ticket machines sell a much wider range of tickets and generally are easier to use.

Agreed. Frequency is superior in Britain. Integration, which makes public transport so much more accessible and attractive, is generally great in Germany (as in most of Europe) but an utter failure over here (except London).

DB do have a strategy to largely double IC/ICE frequencies by the end of the decade, involving large orders for additional trains.

 

[yorksrob]

Unfortunately what benefits there are of the system in Britain are wiped out by the generally poor value for money for passengers.

 

[Richard Scott]

Unfortunately what benefits there are of the system in Britain are wiped out by the generally poor value for money for passengers.

To be honest walk on tickets inmost countries are similar prices to UK, if not more. Remember looking at buying a ticket in France a few years back and price was eye watering!
Regional trains are good value in Germany (and some other countries such as Italy) but are often quite slow; if you want to go any distance can take a long time.

 

[yorksrob]

To be honest walk on tickets inmost countries are similar prices to UK, if not more. Remember looking at buying a ticket in France a few years back and price was eye watering!
Regional trains are good value in Germany (and some other countries such as Italy) but are often quite slow; if you want to go any distance can take a long time.

Unfortunately our regional trains are quite slow and expensive, and we haven't had any notable fares innovation.

 

[nwales58]

When anything did go wrong, customer service of any kind was usually appalling.

To be fair to DB, my experience over 30+years is that that is normal German customer service, shops, hotels are the same. Starting point, if you can find anyone qualified to solve the problem, is that the customer is always wrong. I do speak German. German colleagues seemed to have to quote consumer law. End of grump.

Actually things seem a bit better nowadays, a bit more smiley at least.

Top thing DB CS *is* good at: "Zugbindung aufgehoben" and the info point at main stations, despite the 100 passenger queue when something badly late arrives. Infinitely better for normal people than UK (mis) information on ticket acceptance.

 

[The exile]

To be fair to DB, my experience over 30+years is that that is normal German customer service, shops, hotels are the same. Starting point, if you can find anyone qualified to solve the problem, is that the customer is always wrong. I do speak German. German colleagues seemed to have to quote consumer law. End of grump.

Actually things seem a bit better nowadays, a bit more smiley at least.

As a resident at the beginning of this century, I thoroughly concur. “Service desert Germany” has improved since, though in many areas the actual need for that service has increased!

 

[rvdborgt]

Top thing DB CS *is* good at: "Zugbindung aufgehoben" and the info point at main stations, despite the 100 passenger queue when something badly late arrives. Infinitely better for normal people than UK (mis) information on ticket acceptance.

You don't even need that stamp, but it is reassuring.

 

[Richard Scott]

Unfortunately our regional trains are quite slow and expensive, and we haven't had any notable fares innovation.

By regional I do mean an appreciable distance, usually what me might have determined Provincial Services, not local trains. Regional trains in Germany do seem slower than ours over distance as they often sit at stations for a while waiting for an IC to overtake or wait for connections. Ours don't do that, however doesn't mean the German method is a bad thing as gives you a choice. Often we don't have that choice.

 

[doc7austin]

Punctuality of long distance trains sank to under 60% recently (+5'59" is still considered "on time"). Is that comparable to the UK?

btw: cancelled trains are not included into the statistics. A cancelled train is considered to be on time from a statistics point of view.
The real punctuality could have even sunk below 50%.

 

[yorksrob]

By regional I do mean an appreciable distance, usually what me might have determined Provincial Services, not local trains. Regional trains in Germany do seem slower than ours over distance as they often sit at stations for a while waiting for an IC to overtake or wait for connections. Ours don't do that, however doesn't mean the German method is a bad thing as gives you a choice. Often we don't have that choice.

Try going an appreciable distance on the regional railway - Leeds to Newcastle or Crewe for example and it can be very expensive.

 

[Richard Scott]

Try going an appreciable distance on the regional railway - Leeds to Newcastle or Crewe for example and it can be very expensive.

Yes, I appreciate that, which is why I said at least there's a choice in Germany as know regional travel can be relatively cheap compared to same IC service.
I assume, though, that you can book cheaper tickets in advance in UK for said services, something that can't be done on German regional trains (although appreciate they're relatively cheap in the first place)?

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, I appreciate that, which is why I said at least there's a choice in Germany as know regional travel can be relatively cheap compared to same IC service.
I assume, though, that you can book cheaper tickets in advance in UK for said services, something that can't be done on German regional trains (although appreciate they're relatively cheap in the first place)?

You've highlighted one of the issues in that for a lot of these sorts of journeys there isn't any choice other than anytime fares, particularly if multiple TOC's are involved.