German Rail in decline ?

[Citistar]

I know it's the season for holiday experiences, but here comes another. We spent just over a week in Garmisch-Partenkirchen earlier in the month. At time of booking, i'd considered doing a couple of days out by train, but it seems that the rail network in that part of Bayern is just broken. I was aware of the long term Ersatzverkehr/RRS going on between GaPa and Mittenwald, but not that there was no through service to München, due to Ev/RRS between Murnau and Weilheim. In addition, i also noted later in the week that there was no service on the Oberammergau branch from Murnau (although we did spot a single unit crawling along on a Probefahrt), nor between Kochel and Penzberg. So without really looking, and not covering a wide area - that's four lines closed and two separate RRS operations between München and Innsbruck. No surprise that Flixbus are running a near constant stream of decker coaches between the two cities and carrying substantial loads!

 

[cactustwirly]

I know it's the season for holiday experiences, but here comes another. We spent just over a week in Garmisch-Partenkirchen earlier in the month. At time of booking, i'd considered doing a couple of days out by train, but it seems that the rail network in that part of Bayern is just broken. I was aware of the long term Ersatzverkehr/RRS going on between GaPa and Mittenwald, but not that there was no through service to München, due to Ev/RRS between Murnau and Weilheim. In addition, i also noted later in the week that there was no service on the Oberammergau branch from Murnau (although we did spot a single unit crawling along on a Probefahrt), nor between Kochel and Penzberg. So without really looking, and not covering a wide area - that's four lines closed and two separate RRS operations between München and Innsbruck. No surprise that Flixbus are running a near constant stream of decker coaches between the two cities and carrying substantial loads!

The main route to Innsbruck is running ok (Munich-Rosenheim-Kufstein-Innsbruck)
The Mittenwald route is more direct but slower

 

[Acfb]

DB are certainly having bad times - but it doesn't seem entirely clear why it is so bad - can anyone elaborate on that? The punctuality issues they seem to be experiencing make anything we are (strikes aside) look very minor.

Is this really true? I get that DB cancels random ICE trains such as one at 9.12 from Hamburg Dammtor to Hannover that we wanted to take last Sunday but surely DB can't be as bad overall as TPE/Avanti and network rail's various issues such as the signalling problems south of Carlisle the other week?

The ICE trains weren't too bad in both directions between Berlin and Hamburg, something like 10 mins late in Hamburg and more punctual arriving back to Berlin last Sunday also I suppose there are few obstructions/congestion points on that line as most trains are able to run non stop between Hamburg Hbf and Berlin Spandau although the train was continuing on to a lot of trains run all the way to/from Munich/Leipzig/Jena etc.

 

[duesselmartin]

Lack of investment and lack of staff are the main issues.
During the failed privateisation attempt investment in Tracks, stock, maintanance was reduced. Also staff was cut to a minimum
Another factor is an increase of traffic on core routes without expanding infrastructure. In some cases loops and points were even removed to save cost.
My local Duisburg to Düsseldorf route had to RE trains an hour plus IC and S-Bahn 30 years ago.
Now we have up to 11 RE services per hour.
While that is positive for that short stretch of line, any minor delay has a knock on effect on the whole system.

 

[Richard Scott]

Is this really true? I get that DB cancels random ICE trains such as one at 9.12 from Hamburg Dammtor to Hannover that we wanted to take last Sunday but surely DB can't be as bad overall as TPE/Avanti and network rail's various issues such as the signalling problems south of Carlisle the other week?

The ICE trains weren't too bad in both directions between Berlin and Hamburg, something like 10 mins late in Hamburg and more punctual arriving back to Berlin last Sunday also I suppose there are few obstructions/congestion points on that line as most trains are able to run non stop between Hamburg Hbf and Berlin Spandau although the train was continuing on to a lot of trains run all the way to/from Munich/Leipzig/Jena etc.

When I was there a couple of weeks back it was dire. Virtually no IC/ICE trains ran to time, many were lacking buffet facilities. Lots of regional trains also late. Overcrowding was appalling on a number of trains and made worse by quite a few short formed trains.

 

[TravellingPhil]

One piece of good news for DB is that the threat of strikes have gone...for now at least.

German rail union accepts Deutsche Bahn offer, averts strike – DW – 08/28/2023

The German state-owned railway operator and transport union EVG's agreement means no indefinite strikes. However, negotiations between DB and the train drivers union GDL still lie ahead.

www.dw.com

The German state-owned railway operator and transport union EVG's agreement means no indefinite strikes. However, negotiations between DB and the train drivers union GDL still lie ahead.

German rail union accepts Deutsche Bahn offer, averts strike – DW – 08/28/2023

The German state-owned railway operator and transport union EVG's agreement means no indefinite strikes. However, negotiations between DB and the train drivers union GDL still lie ahead.

p.dw.com

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Rail strikes in Germany have been averted, at least for the next few monthsImage: Wolfgang Maria Weber/IMAGO
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Germany's rail operator Deutsche Bahn (DB) reached a deal with the railway and transport union (EVG) on Monday, ending a pay dispute and avoiding potential strikes.
Most of the union members (52.3%) voted to accept the arbitrator's wage increases recommendation "and thus against indefinite strikes," the EVG said.
Both the rail operator and the union recommended accepting the proposal.
"This means we have a solidarity-based wage agreement that brings a significant plus, in some cases of more than 50 percent, above all to small and middle-income earners," EVG boss Martin Burkert told journalists in Berlin.
Deutsche Bahn said it was satisfied with the outcome of the mediation.
"It is good news for everyone that we have reached a collective agreement in these challenging times... Even if it demands a lot from us economically," DB personnel director Martin Seiler said.

With the summer season now dying down, hopefully the worst is now behind them; for this year at least.

I'll be using DB next month, I have a 17 minute change in Osnabruck to make on my way from Amsterdam to Hamburg. Will be interesting to see how I get on. However. I have a hotel waiting in Hamburg so the only pressure I'll face is losing my reserved seat if it does all go wrong.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Lack of investment and lack of staff are the main issues.
During the failed privateisation attempt investment in Tracks, stock, maintanance was reduced. Also staff was cut to a minimum
Another factor is an increase of traffic on core routes without expanding infrastructure. In some cases loops and points were even removed to save cost.
My local Duisburg to Düsseldorf route had to RE trains an hour plus IC and S-Bahn 30 years ago.
Now we have up to 11 RE services per hour.
While that is positive for that short stretch of line, any minor delay has a knock on effect on the whole system.

That's not altogether different from the UK experience, except that privatisation was implemented and investment then flowed - until Covid and its aftermath.
DB's financial structure has also been under review, and German politicians want DB to exit foreign adventures (Arriva etc) and concentrate on domestic services.
The freedom of regional powers to determine operators, train fleets and frequencies must also have played a part, as is the case in France too.
Several EU countries have found it hard to maintain investment in the classic railway, while simultaneously building multiple new high speed lines.

 

[dutchflyer]

I'll be using DB next month, I have a 17 minute change in Osnabruck to make on my way from Amsterdam to Hamburg. Will be interesting to see how I get on. However. I have a hotel waiting in Hamburg so the only pressure I'll face is losing my reserved seat if it does all go wrong.

You will have at least a >50% chance to reach the previous IC, running some 50 mins late and thus even be early at HH. Without that RES seat-but as so many end in other trains as booked, will hardly be an issue. A comfort is that very recent upgrade works on the sector just west of OS have now been finished.
Did the reverse myself last week-but in RE-trains (with the D-ticket) and that turned out to be very first day of use on this ticket that all trains ran on time.
Major culprit to the ´WHY?´ seems staff-shortages to me, and thats even more on several of these ´private´ non-DB railways. Also on various tramway urban networks I have visited the last monthes.
If you have ever been there you may remember that OS is unique on being a real crossing station-with E-W and N-S tracks on different levels-and a connecting loop wide around town for the very few trains that do change direction there.
Just left Achim, S-E of Bremen now in an ´Ersatz=replacement train after a ride with 3 very full SEV-buses due to yet another bomb needing to be taken out.

 

[haltendehand]

Is this really true? I get that DB cancels random ICE trains such as one at 9.12 from Hamburg Dammtor to Hannover that we wanted to take last Sunday but surely DB can't be as bad overall as TPE/Avanti and network rail's various issues such as the signalling problems south of Carlisle the other week?

The ICE trains weren't too bad in both directions between Berlin and Hamburg, something like 10 mins late in Hamburg and more punctual arriving back to Berlin last Sunday also I suppose there are few obstructions/congestion points on that line as most trains are able to run non stop between Hamburg Hbf and Berlin Spandau although the train was continuing on to a lot of trains run all the way to/from Munich/Leipzig/Jena etc.

It absolutely is true of long distance trains. DB long distance is significantly worse than any UK operator. Currently time-to-5 is 63%, time-to-15 is 81% - so 19% of long-distance trains in Germany arrive 15 minutes or more late. For every single UK operator except Avanti, time-to-15 is above 90%. The worst-performing UK operator, Avanti West Coast, has 88% time-to-15 performance; that's 50% better than DB! Avanti!

 

[DanNCL]

For every single UK operator except Avanti, time-to-15 is above 90%. The worst-performing UK operator, Avanti West Coast, has 88% time-to-15 performance; that's 50% better than DB! Avanti!

That can't be right. TPE don't even run as much as 90% of their timetable, never mind run it with 90% time-to-15 performance!

 

[Bletchleyite]

That can't be right. TPE don't even run as much as 90% of their timetable, never mind run it with 90% time-to-15 performance!

Punctuality is probably based on what runs. I think TPE are generally quite punctual but aren't very reliable, i.e. what runs does largely run on time, but plenty doesn't run at all.

 

[DanNCL]

Punctuality is probably based on what runs. I think TPE are generally quite punctual but aren't very reliable, i.e. what runs does largely run on time, but plenty doesn't run at all.

Very true but the post I quoted didn't specify punctuality, it stated 'worst performing'. As much as DB Fernverkehr have their issues, even if you can't count on the train turning up on time at least there's a higher chance of it turning up at all than there is with TPE.

 

[haltendehand]

That can't be right. TPE don't even run as much as 90% of their timetable, never mind run it with 90% time-to-15 performance!

Punctuality is probably based on what runs. I think TPE are generally quite punctual but aren't very reliable, i.e. what runs does largely run on time, but plenty doesn't run at all.

This is true for the above statistic, which is based on station stops made. Note that this is also true for German statistics though!

PPM, which is based on station stops advertised (cancellation, part-cancellation, or stop-skipping is a 'fail' for all stations on the trip) and is time-to-10 for TPE (i.e. quite a bit stricter than the German measure) was at 83.4% in June-July. This is still better than DB Fernverkehr as a whole and by some distance!

Very true but the post I quoted didn't specify punctuality, it stated 'worst performing'. As much as DB Fernverkehr have their issues, even if you can't count on the train turning up on time at least there's a higher chance of it turning up at all than there is with TPE.

It's really very difficult to overstate the unreliability of DB Fernverkehr and incredibly poor passenger experience that results from it. With most German connections requiring at least one if not more changes (and many minor connections on non-Takt timetables), a train 'turning up at all' is really not much use if it's +20 or +30 and the connecting train is gone.

 

[gordonthemoron]

My main gripe with German trains at the moment is that a lot of new stock has crap seats, sound familiar? ICE4, Stadler units in Schleswig Holstein and those operated by ODEG. It’s like a conspiracy to deter passengers

 

[Goldfish62]

My main gripe with German trains at the moment is that a lot of new stock has crap seats, sound familiar? ICE4, Stadler units in Schleswig Holstein and those operated by ODEG. It’s like a conspiracy to deter passengers

Yes, ODEG use the classic ironing boards, albeit with a better raked back rather than almost vertical.

 

[duesselmartin]

Unlike GWR, DB replaced the crap seats on its ICE4 fleet.
The trend to crap seats seem to be a global phenonemon.

 

[FormerBritInMe]

The trend to crap seats seem to be a global phenomenon.

Even true here in North America. Reports I have seen of the new Siemens Venture car seating indicate they have less padding and are less comfortable than existing Amfleet. They also widened the aisle for accessibility which resulted in narrowing of the seats. I don't know if VIA's new carriages have the same issues.

Back to Germany - do the delays etc. also affect the overnight sleeper trains such as NightJet? Do they make any attempt to keep them on time or are they subject to the same issues as the IC and ICE trains? I would think for those trains that cross borders, it would not be appreciated to hand it off late to another network with possible knock on effects on their network.

 

[duesselmartin]

NightJets are almost always late I am afraid. Even in the past night services had difficulty with time keeping.
As to day trains, Switzerland often refuses late trains from Germany to reduce the knock on effect on their network. Its all change in Basel then.

 

[rvdborgt]

Back to Germany - do the delays etc. also affect the overnight sleeper trains such as NightJet? Do they make any attempt to keep them on time or are they subject to the same issues as the IC and ICE trains? I would think for those trains that cross borders, it would not be appreciated to hand it off late to another network with possible knock on effects on their network.

Night trains through Germany are subject to many of the same issues, since many are infrastructure-related. IIRC ÖBB once said that Germany is like a black box to them: you only know at what time you enter but it's always a surprise at what time you'll exit.

 

[The exile]

Back to Germany - do the delays etc. also affect the overnight sleeper trains such as NightJet? Do they make any attempt to keep them on time or are they subject to the same issues as the IC and ICE trains? I would think for those trains that cross borders, it would not be appreciated to hand it off late to another network with possible knock on effects on their network.

If anything, international sleeper services have historically been among the worst culprits.

 

[Austriantrain]

If anything, international sleeper services have historically been among the worst culprits.

Victims rather than culprits.

 

[The exile]

Victims rather than culprits.

Certainly if applied to their passengers!

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I’m travelling on the Vienna-Brussels Nightjet on Thursday night this week. We are booked into Brussels Midi at 0955 and we have an onward Eurostar connection at 1256. I’m guessing even with late running of the NJ this should be a reasonably secure connection?

Currently I’m heading eastward on the 1040 Zurich-Budapest which started ok but seemed to gradually lose time over the Buchs-Arlberg-Oztall section, mainly awaiting crossing services on the single line (although we did undertake one impressive bi-di overtake of a local service on one of the double-track sections.) Having lost our path we’re now 45+ late on the Westbahn, none of which was exacerbated by the Deutsche Corridor incidentally. Is this fairly representative of RJ services at present or have we just been unlucky?

 

[Austriantrain]

I’m travelling on the Vienna-Brussels Nightjet on Thursday night this week. We are booked into Brussels Midi at 0955 and we have an onward Eurostar connection at 1256. I’m guessing even with late running of the NJ this should be a reasonably secure connection?

Unfortunately the ÖBB site gives no real time arrival at Brussels (maybe the Belgian site?), but looking at least week, night trains through/from Germany seemed to have arrived in Vienna more or less on time generally. Some have had +/- 30 minutes delay, but no more than that.

Longer delays have occurred in the past though.

Currently I’m heading eastward on the 1040 Zurich-Budapest which started ok but seemed to gradually lose time over the Buchs-Arlberg-Oztall section, mainly awaiting crossing services on the single line (although we did undertake one impressive bi-di overtake of a local service on one of the double-track sections.) Having lost our path we’re now 45+ late on the Westbahn, none of which was exacerbated by the Deutsche Corridor incidentally. Is this fairly representative of RJ services at present or have we just been unlucky?

Unfortunately, it is not uncommon at the moment. By no means the rule, but it happens more than occasionally.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Th

I’m travelling on the Vienna-Brussels Nightjet on Thursday night this week. We are booked into Brussels Midi at 0955 and we have an onward Eurostar connection at 1256. I’m guessing even with late running of the NJ this should be a reasonably secure connection?

Unfortunately the ÖBB site gives no real time arrival at Brussels (maybe the Belgian site?), but looking at least week, night trains through/from Germany seemed to have arrived in Vienna more or less on time generally. Some have had +/- 30 minutes delay, but no more than that.

Longer delays have occurred in the past though.



Unfortunately, it is not uncommon at the moment. By no means the rule, but it happens more than occasionally.

Thank you for the quick response! I’ll go to sleep on Thursday night reasonably confident then

 

[Austriantrain]

Th


Thank you for the quick response! I’ll go to sleep on Thursday night reasonably confident then

Good luck!!

Re your trip in rjx165 yesterday: according to ÖBB, the train already entered the Arlberg somewhat late - if that happens, delays build up. First a long single-track stretch, and then heavily used lines.

 

[TravellingPhil]

I'm off to a bad start...I don't go for three weeks yet!

I'm booked from Amsterdam to Copenhagen with an overnight in Hamburg on the 2nd/3rd October. Then I'm booked from Hamburg to Brussels with a change in Koln on the 15th October. Loaded my tickets into the new DB Next App, and it's showing, 'Your orginal journey has been cancelled, please find a new connection for your trip' for both journeys! Just out of the blue, no contact from DB themselves. I've sent them an online form obviously as there's no actual advice on how to find and book a new connection. This will be interesting. A part of me is thinking to just turn up for my trains and see how I get on. I have a hotel at the end of each journey so I'm not risking any international connections or getting stranded.

 

[nwales58]

Flex or Sparpreis?

 

[TravellingPhil]

Flex or Sparpreis?

Sparpreis, but the one where you can cancel for vouchers. I'm wondering if it's a technical issue with the new App. I've had a look, apart from the one leaving Hamburg Altoona when we return...all the other trains are still available to book. I can still access my tickets fine.

Edit: I think I've found it after some digging around. Our connection at Osnabruck is now due to leave at 16:25 instead of 16:23, so that's no issue at all. However, on the return, our train from Hamburg is now scheduled to leave a whole hour earlier. That will cause us an issue as the connection from the sleeper train from Stockholm is now 30 minutes instead of an hour and a half. I see from other forums that even the slightest change in an itinerary throws a cancelled trip message. Surprised I've not had an email.

 

[30907]

Sparpreis, but the one where you can cancel for vouchers. I'm wondering if it's a technical issue with the new App. I've had a look, apart from the one leaving Hamburg Altoona when we return...all the other trains are still available to book. I can still access my tickets fine.

Edit: I think I've found it after some digging around. Our connection at Osnabruck is now due to leave at 16:25 instead of 16:23, so that's no issue at all. However, on the return, our train from Hamburg is now scheduled to leave a whole hour earlier. That will cause us an issue as the connection from the sleeper train from Stockholm is now 30 minutes instead of an hour and a half. I see from other forums that even the slightest change in an itinerary throws a cancelled trip message. Surprised I've not had an email.

It looks as though the direct route via Bremen is blocked for engineering works and through services are diverted via Hannover (which isn't much slower). DB "minor" engineering works are typically only published a month or so in advance.
Incidentally, I amxnot convinced the timetable is completely updated!

Your ticket automatically becomes valid on any DB train the same day. Provided a potential 2-hour delay into Brussels is no problem, I don't think you need be overly concerned.

You can refund and rebook any seat reservations.