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Greater Anglia Unreasonableness

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jb

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I believe this is a civil matter only.

In terms of the recovery of the penalty fare and additional costs, this is true. (This is one of the few times when a meme oft-trotted-out on these boards, namely that "a penalty fare is not a fine", is useful).

In terms of the offence itself, I am positive you are mistaken.

I'm also baffled as to what this statutory / Byelaw gumph has to do with anything.
 
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island

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To be pedantic, the OP cannot be jailed for a first offence, even if convicted under s. 5 RRA.

I've heard that mentioned a lot here and even said it myself, but can't find where it says that in the actual law. Can you help me out?
 

jkdd77

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http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/52-53/57/section/5

(3)If any person—

(a)Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof; or

(b)Having paid his fare for a certain distance, knowingly and wilfully proceeds by train beyond that distance without previously paying the additional fare for the additional distance, and with intent to avoid payment thereof; or

(c)Having failed to pay his fare, gives in reply to a request by an officer of a railway company a false name or address,

he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding [F6]level 2 on the standard scale][F2[F7] level 3 on the standard scale]], or, in the case of a second or subsequent offence, either to a fine not exceeding [F6]level 2 on the standard scale][F2[F7] level 3 on the standard scale]], or in the discretion of the court to imprisonment for a term not exceeding [F8three months].
 

bb21

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In the mean time can I please ask how many of the contributors to this thread either work for or have an interest in the train companies?

How is this relevant to your case?

As I said to another person recently who came here for advice, you do not have to take onboard advice offered by forum members, who are all volunteers who give up their time to try and help others in this complicated area.

If after doing your own research, you believe that the advice given by forum members are inappropriate, you are welcome to go ahead and fight it in court, should the matter proceed to that stage, and you have most people's best wishes. My advice remains as it always has been: seek professional help first if you decide to have your day in court.

Unfortunately as things currently stand, the railway companies do have a lot of power, even if the majority of us would like to see things changed. A question you must ask yourself is how confident you are of winning the challenge and whether you can afford the fallouts from losing the case. It's an uncomfortable situation to be in for most people but one you must assess independently, with the help of a professional solicitor preferrably.
 

TheJustice

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Hi,

Firstly, thank you all for your responses. I will address all of the points Island has raised in his/her response, that way I then believe I will have summarised and answered all the key points relating to my particular scenario.

Your journey is paid for on Oyster when you touch out at your final destination and obtain a green light.

My journey was paid for plus an extra 30p when the inspectors forced me to hand over my debit card and pay £2 before exiting the barriers.

I believe you're wrong. Do you want to take the risk of a criminal prosecution, possible fine up to £1,000, possible prison sentence of up to 3 months, and possible criminal record?

As I was owed a refund by Oyster and the journey has been paid it is unlikely, due to a lack of intent to evade payment, no criminal offence has taken place, certainly not under the master Acts governing fare payments on the rail network. Under the by-laws the situation may be different but as yet I can not establish why there is a belief by some that a strict liability offence has been created.

That's a very interesting assertion. Might I ask for a source please?

In this instance there are laws covering my situation which appear to both be within the reaches of the civil and criminal law. As there is ambiguity and no certainty the common law is not a meaningless consideration. As there is a contractual element to my situation, which in my opinion I have not breached but Greater Anglia believe to the contrary, it therefore attracts the attention of the common law regarding civil contracts. Can you please direct me to the parent Act of the by-laws? And could you please also tell me why the by-laws make provision for a strict liability offence?

I have one final question, which has been asked a number of times and which you seem to be ignoring. If you had not encountered an authorised collector at your destination station, how and when would you have paid for your journey?

I'm glad you've asked this question. I would pay for my journey in precisely the same manner I did when I had a similar issue a couple of months ago. I reached the barrier and touched out but I could not go through because the station I travelled from was again closed and the ticket machine wasn't working. He let me through and directed me to the manned desk at my destination station. He asked where I travelled from and charged me the £1.50 fare which I was more than happy to pay.

TheJustice
 

TheJustice

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Hi,

Furthermore as I understand it if there is an attempt to prosecute under the by-laws this will be an unrecorded offence, and therefore will not give me a criminal record. And if it is a prosecution under by-law 18 then only a fine can be imposed.

TheJustice
 
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DaveNewcastle

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. . .

As I was owed a refund by Oyster and the journey has been paid it is unlikely, due to a lack of intent to evade payment, no criminal offence has taken place, certainly not under the master Acts governing fare payments on the rail network. Under the by-laws the situation may be different but as yet I can not establish why there is a belief by some that a strict liability offence has been created.
The strict liability offence would be failing to present a valid ticket for inspection when requested by an officer of the railways (either of the offences in Railway Byelaw 18)


In this instance there are laws covering my situation which appear to both be within the reaches of the civil and criminal law. As there is ambiguity and no certainty the common law is not a meaningless consideration. As there is a contractual element to my situation, which in my opinion I have not breached but Greater Anglia believe to the contrary, it therefore attracts the attention of the common law regarding civil contracts. Can you please direct me to the parent Act of the by-laws? And could you please also tell me why the by-laws make provision for a strict liability offence?
The most recent 'enabling Act' for the Railway Byelaws is the Railways Act 2005 S.46. (Before then, it was the Transport Act 2000 S.219 and before that, the Railways Act 1993 S.129 )

On Transport for London, the 'enabling Act' is Greater London Authority Act 1999 S.17 and as amended by the Transport for London Act 2008.

All the Railway Byelaws, except Byelaw parts of 16 and all of 17, create an Offence which carries a penalty. The ambiguity you refer to may exist in so far as a person who has alledgedly committed both an offence in statute and also an offence of the Byelaws may, for a period of uncertainty, be unsure whether they will be prosecuted under either. Similarly, the Investigator may be undecided during that period. However, there will be no doubt by the time a Prosecutor has filed their Claim to the Court and the accused person then receives their summons.
It should be of little concern to know that there may have been another Offence for which the person could have been prosecuted - but wasn't.

If you suspect that there is fault to be found under Contract Law then you will be at liberty to persue it, even a passenger who has not paid their fare may demonstrate that a Contract existed and consequently any breach by the carrier may be pursued. I'm very unclear what basis you think you have for a claim in Contract Law.
In Common Law, I'll guess that you have been considering a claim of Negligence against the Railway Company. However, nothing you have written here suggests to me that you have a sound basis to make such a claim.

The reason for the Byelaws to make provision for strict liability offences is in order to acheive their purpose. Until the Byelaws were refined as they are today, prosecutions were often protracted affairs requiring several Witnesses to attend Court (Inspectors at either end of a journey, the ticket seller, platform staff at intermediate stations, and sometimes private detectives following the passengers) and then, on evidential grounds, the prosecution of even some well-known fare evaders would fail. The effort in detecting the various frauds a century ago could be immense and quite disproportionate to the sums involved. Some Case Law to clarify the statutes (e.g. the meaning of 'intent') and the revisions to the Byelaws have made the detection of fare evasion relatively simple.
. . .as I understand it if there is an attempt to prosecute under the by-laws this will be an unrecorded offence, and therefore will not give me a criminal record. And if it is a prosecution under by-law 18 then only a fine can be imposed.
That would be correct, if the prosecution succeeded.
 
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bb21

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Hi,

Furthermore as I understand it if there is an attempt to prosecute under the by-laws this will be an unrecorded offence, and therefore will not give me a criminal record. And if it is a prosecution under by-law 18 then only a fine can be imposed.

TheJustice

However bear in mind that it is not unheard of for clerical errors to result in Byelaw convictions to enter the national database. Taking them off would take some effort.

So while it is true that conviction under the Byelaws should only result in effectively monetary losses, it is still recommended that you avoid the legal system if you can.
 

island

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In this instance there are laws covering my situation which appear to both be within the reaches of the civil and criminal law. As there is ambiguity and no certainty the common law is not a meaningless consideration. As there is a contractual element to my situation, which in my opinion I have not breached but Greater Anglia believe to the contrary, it therefore attracts the attention of the common law regarding civil contracts.

I have a doubt that any of this argument has any legal merit.

Dave has very graciously replied to the queries you put and I hope has clarified the matter for you and I concur with his suggestion that it is unlikely you have a cause of action in contract or at common law against Greater Anglia. I now earnestly encourage you to make the settlement payment demanded of you, or in the alternative consult a solicitor, as doing neither is likely to result in you ending up with a criminal conviction. Under which law I am not sure, but suffice it to say that cases do exist where a person who has travelled without paying his fare before boarding when the facilities to do so were available was found guilty of an offence under section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889.
 

Flamingo

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... As I was owed a refund by Oyster and the journey has been paid it is unlikely, due to a lack of intent to evade payment, no criminal offence has taken place, certainly not under the master Acts governing fare payments on the rail network. Under the by-laws the situation may be different but as yet I can not establish why there is a belief by some that a strict liability offence has been created.



In this instance there are laws covering my situation which appear to both be within the reaches of the civil and criminal law. As there is ambiguity and no certainty the common law is not a meaningless consideration. As there is a contractual element to my situation, which in my opinion I have not breached but Greater Anglia believe to the contrary, it therefore attracts the attention of the common law regarding civil contracts. Can you please direct me to the parent Act of the by-laws? And could you please also tell me why the by-laws make provision for a strict liability offence?...


TheJustice

Putting it bluntly, the railways (and parliament, as that is who ultimately sets the law) have had nearly 200 years to write & refine the laws covering the railway, and travelling without a valid ticket.

Do you really think that you have spotted something that has not been noticed by every barrister, solicitor, railway prosecution department or MP to look at the question?

Everybody on here who has any knowledge of the law and the railways has given you the same advice. Do you not think there is a reason for that?

Grow up and pay up, or you will be in for a very expensive lesson in the law and how it works in relation to fare evasion.
 

Fare-Cop

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I'm glad you've asked this question. I would pay for my journey in precisely the same manner I did when I had a similar issue a couple of months ago. I reached the barrier and touched out but I could not go through because the station I travelled from was again closed and the ticket machine wasn't working. He let me through and directed me to the manned desk at my destination station. He asked where I travelled from and charged me the £1.50 fare which I was more than happy to pay.

TheJustice

That does not answer the simple question that you were asked, which was 'Where would you have paid if you had not been stopped at the end of your journey?'.


suffice it to say that cases do exist where a person who has travelled without paying his fare before boarding when the facilities to do so were available was found guilty of an offence under section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889.

Absolutely correct, S.5 of that Act advises that '....if any person travels, or attempts to travel without having previously paid....'

Dave Newcastle has given you a very clear steer on this and the strict liability requirements of National Railway Byelaws (2005).

I am of the same opinion as others, if you persist in ensuring this matter goes to a Court hearing without trained legal representation, then your flawed logic is doomed to failure.

If I were you I would certainly seek legal advice immediately or take the opportunity to settle without Court action. The very strong likelihood is that independent, paid for legal advice will conclude that, exactly as here, your best chance of avoiding conviction is to accept the opportunity that you have been offered and dispose of the matter by administrative payment.

There is an old saying in legal circles that the goes along the lines of: 'the layman who defends himself in a Court of law has a fool for a client'.

Whilst there are rare exceptions, experience teaches me that it holds good for the vast majority I'm afraid.

From what I can see on here you've had some very good advice, freely given and without any benefit to the provider.
 

TheJustice

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Hi,

What is very clear is that the train companies like to make it very ambiguous as to whether they will prosecute you or sue you for fare evasion.

'I now earnestly encourage you to make the settlement payment demanded of you, or in the alternative consult a solicitor, as doing neither is likely to result in you ending up with a criminal conviction.'

This is factually incorrect.

'Putting it bluntly, the railways (and parliament, as that is who ultimately sets the law) have had nearly 200 years to write & refine the laws covering the railway, and travelling without a valid ticket'.

They may well have but they have only had 10 years to establish the laws as regards Oyster use on the railway network.

'Grow up and pay up, or you will be in for a very expensive lesson in the law and how it works in relation to fare evasion.'

This is nothing to do with maturity and everything to do with fairness and justice.

'The very strong likelihood is that independent, paid for legal advice will conclude that, exactly as here, your best chance of avoiding conviction is to accept the opportunity that you have been offered and dispose of the matter by administrative payment'.

There is no chance of a criminal record. An attempt under the principle Acts governing fair evasion is very unlikely to succeed in my case. The only further research required concerns a pursuit under the bylaws which has the potential to be successful, although unlikely.

Which case or precedent establishes the fact that the bylaws create a strict liability offence as regards fare evasion?

TheJustice
 

bb21

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As I have said to others who think that they are in the right, you do not have to take the suggestions from here onboard. They are merely advisory. If you are determined to fight it out then no one can stop you, and in that case, I applaud your courage.

That said, I strongly urge caution, as one minor wrong step can prove very costly at the end. That is the main reason why most seasoned forum members recommend that you seek the advice of a professional legal practitioner. Railway legislation is a legal minefield and very much different to other areas of law. What you know about other areas may not be applicable here.

If you do decide to go ahead then I wish you luck. If you get to fight them in court and win the case (as opposed to GA dropping out) then this would be good news for passengers in general.

Whatever you do, exercise extreme caution.
 

Yew

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The laws are horribly skewed against you, we dont like it, but there isnt much we can do.


My advice would to be to pay (to avoid anything going to court) and then to write a letter to GA, being very polite and explaining that your oyster had been incorrectly charged, and TfL had said they would refund, but you didnt realise this had not been processed yet. Dont bother calling them capitalist pigs, supported by a barely competent government only focused on political point scoring or anything like that, save that for a letter to your MP.

Yew
 

Flamingo

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Fine, you obviously have a strong view of your situation, which is at odds with the advice you have been given. Do what you obviously think is the best for you, it will be interesting to see what happens. Please let us know how it goes.
 

ModernRailways

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Have you considered actually contacting Oyster and asking them to try and settle it? Or for them to possibly refund you for the extra penalty fare incurred?

As others have said, pay it. Once you have paid it you can also continue arguing with them. If you so wanted to you could go the media. They would love it!

Just remember, the problems will only get bigger the longer it goes on, so it's best to pay it and then argue it out - politely, otherwise they will ignore you.
 

island

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'I now earnestly encourage you to make the settlement payment demanded of you, or in the alternative consult a solicitor, as doing neither is likely to result in you ending up with a criminal conviction.'

This is factually incorrect.
In what regard? Note that I did not say a criminal record, I said a conviction.
 

Clip

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Have you considered actually contacting Oyster and asking them to try and settle it? Or for them to possibly refund you for the extra penalty fare incurred?

As others have said, pay it. Once you have paid it you can also continue arguing with them. If you so wanted to you could go the media. They would love it!

Just remember, the problems will only get bigger the longer it goes on, so it's best to pay it and then argue it out - politely, otherwise they will ignore you.


But it was the OPs fault for not having the correct money on his Oyster. The issues surrounding the refund are moot - its up to the passenger to check they have the correct money on their card.

Im struggling to understand why this seems a hard concept for some people on this thread including the OP.

Or do we all now let you travel with yesterdays ticket because you forgot to check the date and purchase a new one?
 

Flamingo

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"I couldn't pay for my ticket as my wages were late in the bank"...
 

TheEdge

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Im struggling to understand why this seems a hard concept for some people on this thread including the OP.

Its always the railways/Oyster/someone else's fault. No one is culpable for their own actions anymore.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Just looking at local newspaper tonight which has a "court section" ...

Normal FCC prosecutions and costs for the average 3 or 4 cases a week , equal around the £300 mark.
 

ChiefPlanner

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That is NOT the average number of prosecutions by FCC in a week (perhaps it is typical of contested hearings in a particular Court).

Indeed - the local magistrates court in St Albans - interesting to see how rail fares issues command fines of around £200 - £300 for often £5 - £10 ticket transgressions.

They take a hard line locally on TV licence issues - ......(slightly off topic I know but railways are fairly big on the local agenda) ..
 

Aictos

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Well, he can blame that nice Mr Major (and the people that voted for him) for for the fact we don't, but I digress...

Actually I think we should lay the blame firmly at the door at the Treasury who wanted BR to be broken into what exists today, actually think Major wanted something resembling big 4 but Treasury overruled him.

We can also then lay some blame at the door of a certain Mr Blair and his New Labour chums who in opposition were all for renationalising the railways but once in power decided to drop that promise like no tomorrow and continued to franchise the railways - I mean how hard would it have been once the original TOCs had finished their franchise agreement to bring it inhouse and run it under BR Ltd?

I'm sorry to be difficult but I don't think it's all Major's fault, I think there are other players who are equally to blame for the mess the industry is in today, that's not to say I agree with him doing what he did in the end as I believe he could always have backed down and not privatised the railways but instead just had two companies running the railways, one looking after track and infrastructure and the other running services which is what Europe wanted and what the French and Germans correctly did unlike the bumbling Brits :(
 

martybabes

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Indeed - the local magistrates court in St Albans - interesting to see how rail fares issues command fines of around £200 - £300 for often £5 - £10 ticket transgressions.

They take a hard line locally on TV licence issues - ......(slightly off topic I know but railways are fairly big on the local agenda) ..

And other courts, IME, hand down fines significantly lower than that for fraud cases involving many hundreds of pounds. Going to court is a lottery, for the Defendant as well as the Prosecutor!
 

Fare-Cop

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And other courts, IME, hand down fines significantly lower than that for fraud cases involving many hundreds of pounds. Going to court is a lottery, for the Defendant as well as the Prosecutor!

Yes, there are always exceptional cases where an 'unusual' result is returned, but the vast majority are dealt with by the sentencing guidelines just discussed in this thread

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=88758/
 
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