If anything, the Cambridge busway was probably built in the wrong place. With the A14 upgrade now complete you’re just as likely to achieve a similar Cambridge North - St Ives journey time via the old Huntingdon road (now A1307). Neither route does anything to alleviate congestion coming from the Science Park into Cambridge City Centre, which is where a busway would have been more useful, assuming you could fit one through the suburbs.
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Guided Busways
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johncrossley
Established Member
But isn't that just buying a paper ticket from the driver? That's quite different to tapping a card on the reader. In many areas, even a regular bus service offers tap and cap. The Busway service is meant to be exceptional.
There is a guided busway where Scott Hall Rd (A61) meets Potternewton Lane. That busway is in use by 7, 7A and 7S. But the 7 turns right at Potternewton Lane. The busway is centered on this roundabout. Buses going towards the roundabout use the busway, but not the other way
Further north, there is a busway for buses going to Leeds centre used by 7 and 7A from King Lane Park and Ride down the hill to the ring road. Google maps link to the park and ride. https://maps.app.goo.gl/NM1wexFnfTGi6pa27. That was working last year - I went on it on a 7.
There was a story on Facebook a few days ago about a new electric bus that used the York Road guided busway. But I have never seen a bus use it. It was never a success as most of the buses on York Rd are Transdev or Arriva going well away from Leeds.
Bradford has a guided busway on Manchester Rd.
stevieinselby
Member
What was the service from Huntingdon and St Ives to Cambridge like before the busway? I'm assuming that the main services ran via A14 – has the busway sped journeys up by much and has the frequency improved significantly (at least, up until the end of 2019)?
It used to be the case that you bought before you boarded from Guideway stops, much like a train. But the council couldn't maintain the ticket machines
I don't remember. The services were operated by Huntingdon and District and Whippet respectively, not Stagecoach.
Congestion in Cambridge is the most important factor for journey times, though the busway would have had an advantage during the long period of A14 reconstruction.
The only way the Busway services seem to be exceptional is that they're excluded from the local multi-operator ticket.
Bus tickets - Combined Authority Transport
Information on bus tickets within the Combined Authority. Each operator has a range of single, return and multi-use tickets valid on their services.
transport.cambridgeshirepeterborough-ca.gov.uk
gingerheid
Established Member
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If we can't sort out infrastructure problems with existing well used and often overcrowded lines (not to mention Wisbech or Haverhill etc), are we just on the cusp of sorting out something better than a busway? I wish we were, but it doesn't seem like it.
Though interestingly Haverhill itself doesn't, despite being quite decent sized place
There's plenty of places with unprotected pavements beside roads with 60mph limits, including sections of the B1102 one that was built quite recently. I'm dubious about the safety value of swerving, particular given the number of on road cyclist deaths that it hasn't saved on the Hills Rd corridor in the time I've been in Cambridge.
Any many other places around the UK too. But it's not happened, it's not happening, and there doesn't seem any reason to suppose that it's just about to happen.
It's capable of doing so if it was allowed to.
Teds
Member
When the busway was being designed, the A14 was a disaster area. On a good day, the trip wouold be quick but too often the traffic especially at peak hours ground to a halt or worse, there was an accident and it was closed for a hour or two. I think the A14 that we have now was an asperation back then. If Northstowe was going to built, it needed a better way for the residents to reach Cambridge.
There is nothing that you can do (at any acceptable cost) to change the location of Cambridge station. It is about a mile from the centre of Cambridge. The new stations are further out still although they are in the right place to serve major employment centres and to a lesser extent, some residential areas. It is worth remembering that the busway serves both those stations and the employment areas around them.
The cycleway/path on the southern section is a problem. It is too narrow for the traffic that it carries. The bikes should probably be segregated but there is no room. The fence has now been erected which protects the cyclists from the buses. The busway both ways is about to be re-opened. It will still have a 30mph limit which seems illogical for a segregated route but there would be an outcry if a higher speed were to be permitted and difference in running time is just not worth the bother.
The city centre section is definitely a problem and the route through Orchard Park didn't help.
The guided busway achieves two obejectives - it (mostly) deters other vehicles from using it and it allows a significantly narrower total track because you are not relying on driver's skill to pass a vehicle in the opposite direction at a closing speed in excess of 100mph. The vehicles can pass almost literally mirror to mirror. If you are building on a new track, you would probably not use guidance in the form we have it now. There is talk about using optical guidance. It is notable that the systems that used that method guidance have all been converted to tramways.
The busway could certainly have been better. I think Belfast Glider is probably better - articulated single deck vehicles and a higher standard of infrastructure in the city. It would be interesting to hear from people who use that system. In Cambridge, there was very little investment in the infrastructure in the city.
Would a tram be better? Almost certainly. Would it have cost much more and caused even more disruption whilst it was being built, absolutely. That would still be true for the proposed extentions of the busway. Without those extensions, Cambourne is still relatively isolated and dependent on the A428. I am not sure East-West Rail will change that although it will improve access to the Biomedical campus. The idea of a Haverhill railway is fanciful. It was single track originally. The cost of building it to accomodate a more frequent service would be huge not to mention the need to enhance the whole route from Shepreth Branch Junction into Cambridge and probably Cambridge North.
As something of an aside, Whippet have just implemented tap on tap off contactless payment on the U1 and U2 routes that use the busway (southern section only). Maybe that will help improve dwell times.
There is nothing that you can do (at any acceptable cost) to change the location of Cambridge station. It is about a mile from the centre of Cambridge. The new stations are further out still although they are in the right place to serve major employment centres and to a lesser extent, some residential areas. It is worth remembering that the busway serves both those stations and the employment areas around them.
The cycleway/path on the southern section is a problem. It is too narrow for the traffic that it carries. The bikes should probably be segregated but there is no room. The fence has now been erected which protects the cyclists from the buses. The busway both ways is about to be re-opened. It will still have a 30mph limit which seems illogical for a segregated route but there would be an outcry if a higher speed were to be permitted and difference in running time is just not worth the bother.
The city centre section is definitely a problem and the route through Orchard Park didn't help.
The guided busway achieves two obejectives - it (mostly) deters other vehicles from using it and it allows a significantly narrower total track because you are not relying on driver's skill to pass a vehicle in the opposite direction at a closing speed in excess of 100mph. The vehicles can pass almost literally mirror to mirror. If you are building on a new track, you would probably not use guidance in the form we have it now. There is talk about using optical guidance. It is notable that the systems that used that method guidance have all been converted to tramways.
The busway could certainly have been better. I think Belfast Glider is probably better - articulated single deck vehicles and a higher standard of infrastructure in the city. It would be interesting to hear from people who use that system. In Cambridge, there was very little investment in the infrastructure in the city.
Would a tram be better? Almost certainly. Would it have cost much more and caused even more disruption whilst it was being built, absolutely. That would still be true for the proposed extentions of the busway. Without those extensions, Cambourne is still relatively isolated and dependent on the A428. I am not sure East-West Rail will change that although it will improve access to the Biomedical campus. The idea of a Haverhill railway is fanciful. It was single track originally. The cost of building it to accomodate a more frequent service would be huge not to mention the need to enhance the whole route from Shepreth Branch Junction into Cambridge and probably Cambridge North.
As something of an aside, Whippet have just implemented tap on tap off contactless payment on the U1 and U2 routes that use the busway (southern section only). Maybe that will help improve dwell times.
gingerheid
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If it is accepted logic (I disagree, but I realise it's just me v the world!) that the Southern Guideway doesn't have sufficient room to be safe, is there any plausible realistic way of getting trams into Cambridge at all? Personally I think there absolutely is (railway station, Station Rd, Hill Rd, loop round Parker's Piece) but I base that on visits to cities in Eastern Europe with tram systems (including some recent additions) that would never in a million years be allowed here in the UK!
Although Cambridge's transport problems are acute, the right approach now is to do nothing (or at least nothing big). There are three significant uncertainties that will get clarified soon:
- the general election
- opening of Cambridge South
- formal consultation on East West Rail
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
You don't need the granularity. You just need to accept that, post Covid, rail usage out of Cambridge is lower and so is use of the Busway. You can't hold the Busway to higher standards
I'm sorry but I'm a public transport advocate. The idea that you do absolutely nothing if you can't have rail seems crazy. There is a tipping point in rail reopening (e.g. Borders Railway would never have been suitable for anything other than heavy rail) but employing old alignments for busway or light rail seems a much more sensible. You're never going to see rail to Haverhill so why not have something that actually does give a benefit?
There were 2 buses per hour from Whippet but it was a bit sporadic. The former United Counties/Stagecoach/H&D was the main service with a 20 min clockface timetable.
The granularity is needed to separate commuting traffic out of Cambridge and commuting traffic into Cambridge. They are not the same thing. I'm holding the busway to the same standard on service provision for commuting into Cambridge: heavy rail is making maximum use of it service capacity, and investing to expand it, the busway isn't even utilising the capacity that it already has.
I'm a public transport advocate too. The situation in Cambridge is fast moving, so getting the timing right for big decisions is critical. The debate about the existing guided busways has been and gone, the important point is to learn the lessons for future decision making.
I don't share that view. The option of heavy rail on the alignment of the old Haverhill line needs to be kept open while we wait to see what happens with the General Election, East West Rail and Cambridge South. That's especially the case because a busway or light rail has to use a new alignment around the east side of Stapleford and Great Shelford, whereas heavy rail can use the old alignment right up to where it joins the main line. I think that the option for heavy rail on the Haverhill alignment will look much more attractive in 2 years time for a Cambridge Development Corporation (or similar) committed to East West Rail.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
No. If I go back to the quote that you made...
...and the fact that rail hasn't managed to get back to pre-Covid levels. That cannot be a stick to beat the busway with. It's clearly much greater than that, as we see with rail and bus usage across the country
It doesn't sound like it. It sounds like the answer is always heavy rail where heavy rail is an option. The debate hasn't been and gone... It's still very much live around Cambridge as you know.
You hold that view but I can tell you, irrespective of the general election, you'll not see a train in Haverhill.
Look at it this way... they've been talking about the reintroduction of rail to South East Northumberland. Look how long that took, and the lines were still in use (albeit antiquated in terms of infrastructure). Portishead to Bristol is another long running aspiration - granted the line is still in situ but it's essentially needing full replacement. How long has East West Rail taken to get as far as it has, and that's a major strategic link? A branch to Haverhill will be very expensive. Guided busways aren't cheap but they are less expensive than heavy rail. Let's come back to this in five years and see which has progressed further!
A couple of months before the Busway opened I had a course in Cambridge the same week as my wife had work in Huntingdon so I stayed with her there for a couple of nights.
On the Monday night it took me 80 minutes on the bus from Cambridge to Huntingdon. On the Tuesday night it took me over 2 hours.
I haven't said that. But heavy rail is the main part of the answer for Cambridge now, because the main employment hubs are around the railway stations, existing and under construction. Heavy rail avoids the congestion that seizes up the Cambridge road network and gets people to where the employment is in a way that buses can't match.
The difference with Cambridge is the speed of economic and population growth, and the prospect of a Development Corporation (or something like it) to cut through these obstacles. Comparisons with Northumberland and Bristol are irrelevant, because they don't have the economic growth that Cambridge has.
I've very carefully not said that there will be trains in Haverhill. But if there is a Development Corporation (or something like it) following the General Election, and East West Rail on the southern approach, then I do expect the old railway alignment to be looked at between Shelford and Granta Park, with an open mind on where it goes after that.
There won't be any more guided busways in Cambridge. if East West Rail and the Development Corporation fall by the wayside, then it will be time to go for the proposed South East and Cambourne busways, but they will not be guided. And they probably won't have anyone to drive the buses.
I tried out the Bristol M2 Metrobus a week ago. It runs partly on a guided busway from Long Ashton P&R and uses part of the old harbour railway alignment across Ashton Swing Bridge - I grew up in Bristol and remember it as a railway. The middle-of-the-day buses I used weren't very busy and the car park not that full (I read that it takes 1,500 cars). The bus-only sections (guided and unguided) amount to around 2.5 km of route and help the bus avoid congestion around Cumberland Basin but, on joining the road network at Cumberland Road, the bus joins general traffic all the way round the city centre. Even with bus lanes, the journey is likely to suffer from congestion in the central area at peak times - a similar situation to Cambridge (which I've not seen) and Leigh - Manchester, which I used a few times. The experience was not unfavourable but it's not what I would call rapid transit. Yes, dual-door buses, to which I was completely unaccustomed, and pre-paid fares only.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
You think they'll be some branch that goes to Granta Park but then no further?
You seem to think that because of Cambridge's growth (and yes, it is growing massively) will be the spur that will suddenly unlock rail development on a scale and at a speed that happens nowhere else in the UK. Look at East West Rail and how long it's taken to get to this point and yet you think that post a general election, such things will change markedly. Fair to say, Cambridge is exceptional in many ways, but it isn't suddenly going to get a load of heavy rail.
As I stated on an earlier post, part of the attraction of guided busways was the segregation of buses from other traffic. Technology has largely removed that as an advantage - see South Hants. So perhaps guided busways are less likely but can tech provide bus only roads that preclude private car use although without the speed (or the cost)?
As for drivers, things are usually cyclical. They couldn't get drivers in the 1970s either but no issues in the 1980s/1990s as they could even recruit many more for minibus operations. It's challenging at the moment but I'd suggest that will change in due course.
I know the Bristol metrobus M2 very well. It is essentially a replacement for the old 903 park and ride service and so is quieter in the off-peak. The route does indeed feature guided sections even if some parts seems a bit superfluous. However, it does suffer the same problem as Cambridge - it's all great until you get out onto the public roads where a distinct lack of bus priority means that you end up grinding along with the other congestion. The original plan was to have proper bus lanes along Spike Island and then enter the city via the Swing Bridge but that got watered down sadly
Yes I do. The evidence is there from what Gove has been saying about Cambridge since last summer, and the very rapid moves towards setting up a Cambridge Development Corporation.
See this from the Levelling Up Department earlier this week:
So things have already changed markedly. The uncertainty is whether that survives a change of government, and why it is necessary to wait to see what happens after a General Election.
That's one possibility. Haverhill is another. Running next to the A11 and joining the Newmarket line at Six Mile Bottom is a third possibility. All could be tacked on to East West Rail delivering 4 tracks between Shepreth Branch Junction and Cambridge, if that's what a Development Corporation decides.
In and around Cambridge that can only be done out in the country, where the congestion isn't as severe as within the City. There, where congestion is endemic, we are stuck with a few bus lanes, many of which only operate in one direction because there isn't room for 2 dedicated lanes. There is never going to be full segregation of buses from other traffic in Cambridge City because there isn't the road space. In Cambridge the bus service will always be hampered by congestion on the roads within the City.
renegademaster
Member
I thought the point of the guided part was that you could have busses going faster than they normally could safely on road made from a tight former BR track, not to keep car traffic away from it
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's a bit of both. To be honest, though, cameras on entry and "give ways" at tight bridges would probably have worked just as well.
THC
Member
I do not think any development corporation will stretch that far, either in remit or geography; devolution is perhaps a more pertinent factor to consider here. While previous administrations have faced well-publicised issues, the C&P combined authority will be the conduit for any post-election transport development whatever the colour of the tie in number 10 as both main parties are committed to extending the policy. With that in mind, the current C&PCA Local Transport and Connectivity Plan states:Yes I do. The evidence is there from what Gove has been saying about Cambridge since last summer, and the very rapid moves towards setting up a Cambridge Development Corporation.
See this from the Levelling Up Department earlier this week:
So things have already changed markedly. The uncertainty is whether that survives a change of government, and why it is necessary to wait to see what happens after a General Election.
That's one possibility. Haverhill is another. Running next to the A11 and joining the Newmarket line at Six Mile Bottom is a third possibility. All could be tacked on to East West Rail delivering 4 tracks between Shepreth Branch Junction and Cambridge, if that's what a Development Corporation decides.
There is also a regional context to take into account. The Department for Transport 'gave regard' to the Transport East 2050 strategy last year, which means the government will need to consider the priorities within the Transport Strategy when developing new policies for the region. What this means in practice remains to be seen, of course, but the TE strategic investment programme includes a "A1307 Cambridge to Haverhill Bus Link" medium term idea, noting that "reopening the historic railway link is challenging as much of the land has been redeveloped".C&PCA LTCP said:
THC
gingerheid
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The long standing Hunts & District Service was broadly three buses an hour (with peak extras) that had three slightly different routes between St Ives and Huntingdon (553, 554, 555). (Wyton Airfield and Houghton village were both served broadly hourly, and the services that went to neither also took a direct route though Huntingdon rather than a different and more thorough route through Oxmoor than offered presently). The fastest of those routes was timetabled to be 55m off peak, and the slowest rush hour journey was timetabled to be 80m. In reality none of these timings were ever met except late at night, and of course when the A14 had a hissy fit they would be missed by a tremendous amount! The H&D service was broadly hourly in the evening and they did not operate a Sunday service. For a long time there were two additional M-Sa subsidised evening service 151s from Cambridge that served Oakington, Bar Hill, Fen Drayton and Godmanchester (one return).
H&D also had a daily X14 to CRC and the Science Park. It went via Bar Hill direct to the Science Park and was timetabled to take 90m.
A typical timetable can be seen at https://web.archive.org/web/20060112032246/http://www.huntsbus.co.uk/hd553mh.html , but it's worth drawing attention again to the fact that those timings were never ever met except in the evening. I typically used the 0620 and it typically took 70-75m. I tried to take it as even the next bus was much MUCH slower!
It's worth mentioning that all did not seem to be well at Hunts & District in their final years or so. You would previously have expected to travel in a perfectly respectable Wright Renown, and there was also an Optare Excell. Towards the end some truly dilapidated ancient Leyland Olympians seemd to be more in charge.
Whippet timetables were subject to more tinkering. There were routes 1A and 5 between (usually) Huntingdon and Cambridge(with an additional call at Bar Hill Tesco that H&D didn't offer), and there was a route 1 that was (usually) between Cambridge, Cambourne & St Ives. They combined such that there was a broadly hourly services Cambridge - Cambourne - St Ives, and slightly more than hourly Cambridge - St Ives - (More of St Ives than H&D, or Hemingford / Godmanchester) buses. Whippet did not run in the evening during the week, but did run a Sunday service that for a while extended to Peterborough and that for a while ran in the evening. Towards the end it was an hourly daytime service between Huntingdon and Cambridge.
Whippet's fleet was typically very much older than Hunts & Districts, but always very very VERY smartly presented.
For wayback machine purposes Whippet's website used to be go-whippet.co.uk, but it doesn't work well.
Almost exclusively they were. Quirks of Whippet's very excellent and comprehensive timetable planning, that really got the most out a fairly diverse network that also served a lot of villages at least every couple of hours, was that the fastest journey time was in fact on a Whippet bus via Cambourne that at the time only ran once during the middle of the day. Similarly, today the fastest journey time is Whippet's X3 on a broadly similar route, but now operating more frequently.
I would say that the busway probably did not speed journeys up (by timetable they are slower but in reality probably they were about the same, except in the evening when they are slower), but it made the journey times massively more predictable.
This is where the really rather stunning improvements were to be found.
By the end of 2019 St Ives was seeing 8+ buses an hour instead of 4-5, and the Sunday service was varying between 3 and 4 buses an hour (depending on the timetable) instead of 1. Evening services were roughly doubled. I don't think there is anywhere else in the country where this happened during what was a period of decline for buses in general.
In early 2020 there was a large publicity drive for a massive relaunch with some incredible service improvements that were to take place from the end of March (leaflet attached). We all know that of course something quite different happened in March 2020.
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greenline712
Member
Thanks to @gingerheid for that comprehensive comment, and for digging out that publicity from March 2020 .... I knew I'd seen details about that expansion somewhere !!!
That shows the potential of the Busway so clearly ... connectivity across a huge swathe of Cambridgeshire; so much more than a simple rail line could ever achieve.
The sadness is that it was never given a chance to prove itself. Will it ever happen? I suspect not ... the general bus industry is in a quite different place now.
That shows the potential of the Busway so clearly ... connectivity across a huge swathe of Cambridgeshire; so much more than a simple rail line could ever achieve.
The sadness is that it was never given a chance to prove itself. Will it ever happen? I suspect not ... the general bus industry is in a quite different place now.
This is one of the reasons why I've very carefully not specified that a railway would go to Haverhill. The land that has been redeveloped is mostly in Linton and Haverhill, the route between Shelford and Granta Park is mostly intact apart from some commercial premises in Great Shelford. A railway that only goes to Granta Park, or goes alongside the A11 to Six Mile Bottom, also avoids the heavy cost of crossing the A11.
As always, I appreciate your insight on local government matters. In and around Cambridge the structure is very messy, with both the Cambridge and Peterborough Combined Authority (CPCA) and the Greater Cambridge Partnership (GCP), in addition to two tiers of "traditional" local authorities. On such matters I pay less attention to what the political parties are saying and more attention to what the Treasury and the Levelling Up Department are doing. I do think there is going to be some tension between rhetoric on devolution and Whitehall determination to get the Cambridge goose to lay the economic growth golden egg.
higthomas
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Yeah, such a shame it never came to pass.
Although as a fairly regular user of the A within the city it could definitely justify a heftier frequency enhancement than it's getting. It's full and standing, to the point of leaving people behind a lot of the times I catch it. And that after cutting out the Histon Road stops. I think it could still justify an every 7.5 minutes service, perhaps just as far as longstanton.
But I guess they don't have the drivers for that?
gingerheid
Established Member
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I do support busways, but this is a great example of how all the flaws in execution can build up. If it wasn't for the low bridge south of the railway station these wouldn't be single deckers, and that would help. If the Orchard Park East stop wasn't built metres around the corner from being able to be served by twice as many buses (specifically including the double deckers) that could help. If the 8A route created to try and alleviate this problem wasn't so flawed, that would help (it leaves from different stops to all the other routes it offers an alternative to and does two loops around Orchard Park on each journey). And if the 8 wasn't just about to get cut so it doesn't operate to a memorable timetable, that would also help.
And of course there is definitely the drivers thing, which might not be a problem if bus driving wasn't a job unlikely to be desirable to people with enough money to pay to train to become one!
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johncrossley
Established Member
Is there a technical reason for not running articulated buses on the low bridge section?
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Very true - the world has certainly changed in four years.
A railway that only goes to Granta Park will never justify a business case.
I wouldn't say that. The driver position has stabilised a bit but it's still a challenge. However, they might seek to bolster services on corridors where there is most demand so never say never
Never say never. You have no idea what Cambridge in general and Granta Park in particular will be like in 10 or 20 years time.
10 years ago the Biomedical Campus was arable fields with no business case for Cambridge South.
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