Guildford to Manchester

[nicksk]

I travel from Guildford to Manchester every month or so. The sensible routes are via Reading, or via Waterloo/Underground/London Euston. I've done this with off-peak returns on previous trips, mainly as I like the flexibilty, but partly because I couldn't find any splits that gave significant savings.

Ticket machines and online journey planners will happily sell me an "Valid via any permitted route" off-peak return with restriction code 2V. If I change my mind and want to travel via London, is that ticket valid via London? Surely London has to be a permitted route from Guildford to Manchester, but that ticket doesn't have a maltese cross on it. If I use contactless for the Underground part, is that ticket valid for the rest of the journey?

I can also buy a "via London" off-peak return ticket which is slightly more expensive. That one does have the maltese cross. If I buy a via London ticket and then want to travel via Reading, is this ticket valid on that route instead?

 

[Gwr12345]

I travel from Guildford to Manchester every month or so. The sensible routes are via Reading, or via Waterloo/Underground/London Euston. I've done this with off-peak returns on previous trips, mainly as I like the flexibilty, but partly because I couldn't find any splits that gave significant savings.

Ticket machines and online journey planners will happily sell me an "Valid via any permitted route" off-peak return with restriction code 2V. If I change my mind and want to travel via London, is that ticket valid via London? Surely London has to be a permitted route from Guildford to Manchester, but that ticket doesn't have a maltese cross on it. If I use contactless for the Underground part, is that ticket valid for the rest of the journey?

I can also buy a "via London" off-peak return ticket which is slightly more expensive. That one does have the maltese cross. If I buy a via London ticket and then want to travel via Reading, is this ticket valid on that route instead?

An any permitted ticket is valid via London, but doesn't have the Maltese Cross. A via London ticket has to go via London, you can't go via Reading.
Edit:unless you buy a change of route excess I believe.

 

[nicksk]

Thanks. I have previously excessed an any permitted ticket to a via London ticket when I turned up at Guildford station to find that the Reading train was cancelled. That then got me a ticket with the Maltese cross, and the ticket office were very helpful on that occasion. But it is good to know from you that if the time had been tighter or the ticket office had been closed I could have just jumped on the next London train and then used contactless for the Underground.
If I had pre-purchased a via London ticket and needed to excess it to an any permitted ticket in order to travel via Reading: how does that work given that the Reading ticket is cheaper?

 

[Watershed]

Thanks. I have previously excessed an any permitted ticket to a via London ticket when I turned up at Guildford station to find that the Reading train was cancelled. That then got me a ticket with the Maltese cross, and the ticket office were very helpful on that occasion. But it is good to know from you that if the time had been tighter or the ticket office had been closed I could have just jumped on the next London train and then used contactless for the Underground.
If I had pre-purchased a via London ticket and needed to excess it to an any permitted ticket in order to travel via Reading: how does that work given that the Reading ticket is cheaper?

The "via London" ticket is also valid avoiding London (as silly as that may seem!) because it is more expensive than the "Any Permitted" fare. There is no need to obtain an excess and travelling on a cheaper route is specifically permitted under the Routeing Guide.

In theory the "Any Permitted" ticket is valid via London, including the cross-London transfer on the Tube, despite the lack of Maltese Cross. This is because LONDON is one of the map combinations specified in the Routeing Guide, this isn't excluded by the ticket route (Any Permitted), and the Routeing Guide specifically says that a cross-London transfer is included in such cases even if there isn't a Maltese Cross on the ticket.

But the "Any Permitted" ticket won't work the barriers at any Tube station because the barriers are only programmed to open based on the magnetic-strip equivalent of the Maltese Cross. And the barrier staff are unlikely to let you through, so you would have to pay for the journey and then complain to TfL afterwards.

 

[wibble]

But the "Any Permitted" ticket won't work the barriers at any Tube station because the barriers are only programmed to open based on the magnetic-strip equivalent of the Maltese Cross. And the barrier staff are unlikely to let you through, so you would have to pay for the journey and then complain to TfL afterwards.

Surely the complaint goes to CrossCountry if they haven't added cross-London transfer to a journey they price?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Surely the complaint goes to CrossCountry if they haven't added cross-London transfer to a journey they price?

The intended route for such tickets is via Birmingham, avoiding London. Avanti price tickets on route via London which do have the Maltese Cross symbol to indicate they include the cross-London transfer.

Whilst a fares check isn't necessary given Guildford and Manchester are both routeing points, at the time of NFM64 the only fares between the two were routed via London or via Stafford.

For an Off-Peak Return, the difference in fares is only around £2, which is presumably why Trainsplit offers the "via London" fare rather than the Any Permitted even if you enable the "Use Contactless/Oyster to cross London" option.

 

[mangyiscute]

I would not be surprised to see a "via Banbury" or similar marker appear on that any permitted fare soon, since it is clearly not meant to be used via London. However, with a price difference of £2 I don't think it's too big of a deal, just will avoid people having non maltese cross tickets that should be valid on the underground - except in the evening peak leaving Euston, when the any permitted ticket is fine to use but the via London one isn't.

 

[Watershed]

Surely the complaint goes to CrossCountry if they haven't added cross-London transfer to a journey they price?

That doesn't mean the fare lacks validity for a cross-London transfer. Step 6 of the Routeing Guide refers:

In some instances (particularly long distance cross country journeys) the fares data will show an "any permitted" fare but without the via London, Maltese cross symbol. Reference to Section C (the “yellow pages”) may show via London to be a permitted route for this journey and in such instances travel via London to include cross-London transfer would be permitted.

So whilst yes, on the one hand XC could certainly make it easier for passengers, in reality they would just change the fare to "not via London" if you complained. Be careful what you wish for...

 

[Mcr Warrior]

..in such instances travel via London to include cross-London transfer would be permitted.

Those fine words are unlikely to butter any parsnips when arriving at the LU ticket barriers at Waterloo. How much extra is probably going to be needed to pay LU to cross London / get to Euston?

Are we looking at £2.70/£2.80 with Oyster/Contactless?

 

[Watershed]

Those fine words are unlikely to butter any parsnips when arriving at the LU ticket barriers at Waterloo. How much extra is probably going to be needed to pay LU to cross London / get to Euston?

Are we looking at £2.70/£2.80 with Oyster/Contactless?

I agree, hence my comments above:

But the "Any Permitted" ticket won't work the barriers at any Tube station because the barriers are only programmed to open based on the magnetic-strip equivalent of the Maltese Cross. And the barrier staff are unlikely to let you through, so you would have to pay for the journey and then complain to TfL afterwards.

And yes, it's £2.70/80 so perhaps not worth your while complaining if it only happens occasionally, but if it's a journey you do regularly then you could 'save up' instances until it reaches say £10 or £20.

 

[nicksk]

Thanks all for the explanations. Much appreciated.