GWML / Elizabeth line disruption due to OLE down near Paddington

[Nicholas Lewis]

RAIB need to investigate this as its pretty incredible that we have infrastructure that can't even be reconfigured to allow trains to at least be moved to platforms to allow passengers to be safely released. Certainly be a shift that train crew, signallers, electrical controllers and route controllers wont forget. Just as well they didn't also have a full GWR service running as well.

 

[Dan G]

Several stranded trains, some with 900+ customers on.

1C28 reportedly 900+, there is 3 EL services, at least 2 are reporting 1000+ plus onboard.

So four trains total stranded?

With the GWR in Paddington, what's the status of the EL trains? Everyone evacuated now?

 

[800001]

So four trains total stranded?

With the GWR in Paddington, what's the status of the EL trains? Everyone evacuated now?

I believe they are, people started self evacuating.
The GWR had to wait until everyone was clear of the line before setting back at walking pace into Paddington.

 

[JonathanH]

RAIB need to investigate this as its pretty incredible that we have infrastructure that can't even be reconfigured to allow trains to at least be moved to platforms to allow passengers to be safely released.

A 'last mile' traction battery on all electric units? If the electricity needs to be turned off, electrically powered trains can't move.

 

[matt_world2004]

I thought Westbourne Park sidings could be isolated from power disruptions on the rest of the gwml to allow the core to function in a self contained manner during disruption;

Seems a huge oversight if it can't.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Not just that, it seems the whole line between Reading and Tottenham Court Road is out of action.

Alongside at Acton are, of course, always a significant number of diesel locos in the yard. Presumably whatever aspect of commonality that would once have allowed those to come out forthwith and move stranded trains to the nearest station has all been lost.

The Railways Act of 1994 (and frankly things before) , but a stop to such things as freight locos helping out their passenger mates. If they could couple - unlikely these days.

An observation from the East side - Mrs G went to the Abba shindig in the Stratford area tonight - no diversions to Liv St HL as advertised so the masses were packed into the Central Line , thence via the H&S to Farringdon and onto the welcome (all stations Thameslink) - packed solid of course and a good % of serious drunks , but the got home !!!

 

[liam456]

If passengers want to be freed from stranded trains sooner than three hours after a problem occurs, I think they simply need to be less patient and start self-detraining sooner! With limited resources available from BTP/London Fire Brigade/Network Rail, a call from driver to signaller saying that passengers are getting restless enough to want to force their way out will bump up the urgency that is communicated to the powers that be.

I guess this would only work with lines in urban areas though.

 

[Class93]

RAIB need to investigate this as its pretty incredible that we have infrastructure that can't even be reconfigured to allow trains to at least be moved to platforms to allow passengers to be safely released. Certainly be a shift that train crew, signallers, electrical controllers and route controllers wont forget. Just as well they didn't also have a full GWR service running as well.

I think it’s more of a lack of decision making. I don’t know the ins and outs of it but if the OHLE is down, that’s clearly not going to be a five minute job. LUL are very good at decision making at early points to get trains moving or detrained.

 

[FGW_DID]

If passengers want to be freed from stranded trains sooner than three hours after a problem occurs, I think they simply need to be less patient and start self-detraining sooner! With limited resources available from BTP/London Fire Brigade/Network Rail, a call from driver to signaller saying that passengers are getting restless enough to want to force their way out will bump up the urgency that is communicated to the powers that be.

I guess this would only work with lines in urban areas though.

Yeah, because that's really going to help the situation with the general public running round all over the line! Have a word with yourself!

 

[mikeb42]

The OHLE was switched off from Pad to Maidenhead neutral section.

That's 26 miles or so. On face value that seems insane for the finest granularity on which sections can be switched out on such an intensely used piece of infrastructure. What is the reason for this?

 

[liam456]

Yeah, because that's really going to help the situation with the general public running round all over the line! Have a word with yourself!

Not saying it's right in any way. Just that the cogs of the railway machine will likely move faster, as they did at Lewisham.

 

[43066]

Yes, could well be.

You’re the one who loves to see fights being picked with the unions. And this is the result.

We were asked to mobilise the 57.



Is the correct answer as to why it's not out.

Good .

 

[FGW_DID]

That's 26 miles or so. On face value that seems insane for the finest granularity on which sections can be switched out on such an intensely used piece of infrastructure. What is the reason for this?

Seems a pretty standard response, shut everything down - find out where exactly the issue is then re-energise sections where its safe to do so. I've had instances before when the whole lot has been switched off including the depot but power was restored to us as soon as it was established where the actual incident location was.

 

[Sleepy]

RAIB need to investigate this as its pretty incredible that we have infrastructure that can't even be reconfigured to allow trains to at least be moved to platforms to allow passengers to be safely released. Certainly be a shift that train crew, signallers, electrical controllers and route controllers wont forget. Just as well they didn't also have a full GWR service running as well.

From initial reports 1C28 v OHL damage was quite significant so turning the power back wasn't an option. Evacuation however should have started much sooner, it wasn't like it happened miles from civilisation ???

 

[DanNCL]

I get that there's a procedure to follow and that the procedure is there for a reason but if a train carrying in the region of 1000 people is stranded for a lengthy period in winter without heating, lighting or toilets, passengers are going to de-train themselves whether you like it or not. Difficult to comment without knowing the full details but at first glance it looks like absolutely nothing has been learned from Lewisham.

You’re the one who loves to pick fights with the unions. And this is the result.

This really doesn't need to be turned into yet another debate about the unions.

 

[mikeb42]

Seems a pretty standard response, shut everything down - find out where exactly the issue is then re-energise sections where its safe to do so.

In which case, fair enough. It read as all of that being isolated and staying isolated thus stranding all electric only trains in a wide area.

The EL core up to and including the turnbacks apparently not being electrically isolated remains baffling.

 

[Anonymous10]

I get that there's a procedure to follow and that the procedure is there for a reason but if a train carrying in the region of 1000 people is stranded for a lengthy period in winter without heating, lighting or toilets, passengers are going to de-train themselves whether you like it or not. Difficult to comment without knowing the full details but at first glance it looks like absolutely nothing has been learned from Lewisham.


This really doesn't need to be turned into yet another debate about the unions.

A earlier post suggested a last mile battery on all emus or possibly generator could be added? To provide enough power to get to a station to detrain in a rapid sense.

 

[43066]

This really doesn't need to be turned into yet another debate about the unions.

I’m not asking for any such debate. However the observation was made above was that this situation would be made easier if the union was playing ball, and it isn’t… There’s a good reason for that.

 

[Horizon22]

I get that there's a procedure to follow and that the procedure is there for a reason but if a train carrying in the region of 1000 people is stranded for a lengthy period in winter without heating, lighting or toilets, passengers are going to de-train themselves whether you like it or not. Difficult to comment without knowing the full details but at first glance it looks like absolutely nothing has been learned from Lewisham.

It’s a practical and resourcing issue. With the OLE down & power off it’s reasonably clear that stranded trains are going to exist and evacuations to take place. In that sense they were identified early on unlike in Lewisham.

Actually mobilising all the competent personnel and emergency services to several trains of up to 1000 passengers each and then trying to arrange transport for all of them is a huge undertaking - particularly as some were Heathrow bound with luggage & the impact of accommodation might be required. Self-evacuation might focus minds but only which train is a priority over another as again resources are stretched. I’m sure a review will take place to identify why it still took several hours. Support seems to have been mustered from all sides (including TfL).

 

[800001]

The Railways Act of 1994 (and frankly things before) , but a stop to such things as freight locos helping out their passenger mates. If they could couple - unlikely these days.

An observation from the East side - Mrs G went to the Abba shindig in the Stratford area tonight - no diversions to Liv St HL as advertised so the masses were packed into the Central Line , thence via the H&S to Farringdon and onto the welcome (all stations Thameslink) - packed solid of course and a good % of serious drunks , but the got home !!!

Freight locos help out passengers trains quite often, NWR will request assistance from freight companies. If they have drivers available they will assist.
All stock, **should** have emergency couplers on the train.
The railways act 1994 is irrelevant to how this evening has been handled.

 

[matt_world2004]

Seems a pretty standard response, shut everything down - find out where exactly the issue is then re-energise sections where its safe to do so. I've had instances before when the whole lot has been switched off including the depot but power was restored to us as soon as it was established where the actual incident location was.

They would have known within seconds that it wasn't an incident at say West drayton , I could understand the power being off upto ealing broadway , but they should have kept the power on for as much as the GWML as possible even to allow trains to stop in platforms west of ealing broadway and to stop the incident escalating by having self detrainments away from the incident site

 

[mrmartin]

Is there absolutely no where else on the Elizabeth line tunnels that trains could have been turned around? The whole line as far as I can tell was shut from Paddington to Abbey Wood.

I don't think this is really good enough, obviously it's a catastrophic failure west of Pad, but they could at least run a limited service elsewhere? I understand not wanting to put Shenfield trains in the tunnels, but for nearly £20bn I would expect a tad more resilience than closing everything.

 

[800001]

They would have known within seconds that it wasn't an incident at say West drayton , I could understand the power being off upto ealing broadway , but they should have kept the power on for as much as the GWML as possible even to allow trains to stop in platforms west of ealing broadway and to stop the incident escalating by having self detrainments away from the incident site

I’m pretty sure they got the power back onto areas very quick, out of all the trains between Paddington and Maidenhead, there was only 4 trains stranded without power, all within the Ladbroke Grove/Paddington area.
The self evacuations were from these trains, not on trains west of Acton Mainline/Ealing Broadway.

 

[DanNCL]

A earlier post suggested a last mile battery on all emus or possibly generator could be added? To provide enough power to get to a station to detrain in a rapid sense.

If the train is tangled in fallen wires it's not going anywhere even if it could propel itself.

I’m not asking for any such debate. However the observation was made above was that this situation would be made easier if the union was playing ball, and it isn’t… There’s a good reason for that.

The GWR strike prevented one single loco from being used to assist. Plenty of other diesel locos will have been in the London area from freight operators not on strike and emergency coupler adapters could have been used.

It’s a practical and resourcing issue. With the OLE down & power off it’s reasonably clear that stranded trains are going to exist and evacuations to take place. In that sense they were identified early on unlike in Lewisham.

Actually mobilising all the competent personnel and emergency services to several trains of up to 1000 passengers each and then trying to arrange transport for all of them is a huge undertaking.

I have no doubt about that but ultimately when people are stuck in the cold and dark for that long, no matter how good a reason it is, they're going to take matters into their own hands. The railway has a track record of not delivering for customers and whilst 99% of us on this forum know that Network Rail and/or TOCs will sort it out the general public likely won't trust them to do so.

All stock, **should** have emergency couplers on the train.

They certainly do in the North East. Even Nexus have adapters for emergency rescue of Metro units by a mainline loco, not that such a rescue has ever actually happened.

 

[800001]

If the train is tangled in fallen wires it's not going anywhere even if it could propel itself.


The GWR strike prevented one single loco from being used to assist. Plenty of other diesel locos will have been in the London area from freight operators not on strike and emergency coupler adapters could have been used.


I have no doubt about that but ultimately when people are stuck in the cold and dark for that long, no matter how good a reason it is, they're going to take matters into their own hands. The railway has a track record of not delivering for customers and whilst 99% of us on this forum know that Network Rail and/or TOCs will sort it out the general public likely won't trust them to do so.


They certainly do in the North East. Even Nexus have adapters for emergency rescue of Metro units by a mainline loco, not that such a rescue has ever actually happened.

I know on the 80X fleet they all have emergency couplings within the cupboards opposite the Accessible toilet, pretty sure other new modern stock also has these often in the drivers cab.
Some ROG locos often have couplings already attached, and ROg sometimes have a loco at Wembley or Orient Way.

 

[43066]

Freight locos help out passengers trains quite often.

No, they really don’t.

All stock, **should** have emergency couplers on the train.

No stock I’ve worked, across almost ten types, carries emergency couplers. They’re something that’s brought out in a van when needed, and that’s incredibly rarely.

They certainly do in the North East. Even Nexus have adapters for emergency rescue of Metro units by a mainline loco, not that such a rescue has ever actually happened.

Carried on every train? I somewhat doubt that…

 

[800001]

No, they really don’t.



No stock I’ve worked, across almost ten types, carries emergency couplers. They’re something that’s brought out in a van when needed, and that’s incredibly rarely.



Carried on every train? I somewhat doubt that…

So, I’m aware of locos rescuing many units, just because you are not aware, doesn’t meant it doesn’t happen. I must of imagined the times freight locos have rescued trains for the TOc I work for, and my eyes must of been functioning wrong when they dragged a train into the platform I was stood on. Silly me!!

Just cos stock you’ve worked doesn’t have them, doesn’t mean that other stock doesn’t!! Again I must be imagining these emergency couplings locked in the cupboards of trains at my TOC, I’ll have to go back and ask what they are!

@DanNCL didn’t say that every train in the North East does carry emergency couplings, just that’s some do.

 

[43066]

Just cos stock you’ve worked doesn’t have them, doesn’t mean that other stock doesn’t!!

But you said:

All stock, **should** have emergency couplers on the train.

Which is fundamentally wrong…

I’m sure you know best. I’ll leave it there.

 

[800001]

But you said:



Which is fundamentally wrong…

I’m sure you know best. I’ll leave it there.

I will leave it there with replies to you, as you know best, and other people who know things, know nothing.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Seems bonkers to me that one incident takes out the power over such a long stretch of line.