GWR Class 230 Information, Movements & Discussion.

[FGW_DID]

Whilst there is a separate thread specifically for the Greenford Battery Trial, I thought I would start a more general information, movements & discussion thread for the GWR Class 230.

Possibly 3 units (numbers n/k at this time) will be moving to Reading TCD in the latter half of this month.

Watch this space.....

 

[norbitonflyer]

As far as I am aware there are only 11 class 230s in existence - two of them (002, 011) are in America and TfW are using five more (006-010), which only leaves four: 230001, earmarked for the battery trial, and the three Marston Vale units (003-005). Are you suggesting GWR is taking the marston vale units on? I suppose after the 769-trimode debacle anything is worth a try!

 

[DelW]

As far as I am aware there are only 11 class 230s in existence - two of them (002, 011) are in America and TfW are using five more (006-010), which only leaves four: 230001, earmarked for the battery trial, and the three Marston Vale units (003-005). Are you suggesting GWR is taking the marston vale units on? I suppose after the 769-trimode debacle anything is worth a try!

Post #393 in the Marston Vale discussion said:

1) The WMT units have now been sold and will very likely never operate as diesel units again but hopefully they will see new life one day as battery trains for another operator.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Possibly 3 units (numbers n/k at this time) will be moving to Reading TCD in the latter half of this month.

For what, sorry?

 

[JN114]

For what, sorry?

I believe it’s just to clear out Bletchley at this stage, and put the assets GWR now own under their own roof.

There are no plans to share of any other uses for them beyond the Greenford trial.

 

[norbitonflyer]

................ put the assets GWR now own under their own roof.

The post referred to above only said the Marston Vale units had been sold, but it didn't say to whom. Can we now take it that GWR own them?

 

[Techniquest]

This all sounds very intriguing, I'll be keeping an eye on developments. I got fed up of the Marston Vale thread, so I was unaware of the 230s departing Bletchley. I never got the opportunity to do a 230 to Bedford, one of the few classes around that I've yet to sample, so the opportunity to sample one at some point on GWR certainly intrigues me!

 

[Peter Sarf]

Whilst there is a separate thread specifically for the Greenford Battery Trial, I thought I would start a more general information, movements & discussion thread for the GWR Class 230.

Possibly 3 units (numbers n/k at this time) will be moving to Reading TCD in the latter half of this month.

Watch this space.....

A lot more information in this thread.

Have a look as might answer a few questions or at least give more idea of what might be happening.

 

[Mollman]

Looks like GWR has bought a lot of D-Stock coaches:

Mark Hopwood CBEMark Hopwood CBE• 2nd• 2ndManaging Director Great Western Railway & President at Cholsey & Wallingford RailwayManaging Director Great Western Railway & President at Cholsey & Wallingford Railway
15h • 15h •
Follow

Possibly one of my less conventional decisions - buying 67 former LUL vehicles!

But I believe we can make this project work and get a battery train up and running later this year with more to follow!

It feels exciting to be innovating and pushing boundaries.

Watch this space ….


Dave HortonDave Horton• 3rd+• 3rd+ACGI, CEng, MIMechE, Chief Mechanical Engineer (Battery Train Fast Charge Project) at GWRACGI, CEng, MIMechE, Chief Mechanical Engineer (Battery Train Fast Charge Project) at GWR
15h • 15h •
Follow
It was interesting to visit the home for temporarily-retired D78 cars at a not-so-top-secret location in Warwickshire earlier. GWR are now the proud owner of 67 of these cars, some of which I hope will see new life as Fast Charge-equipped battery trains on branch lines in the future. Meanwhile initial testing of our class leader battery train 230001 and its accompanying Fast Charge system is now wrapping up at Bletchley TMD, and will recommence next month at Porterbrook's Rail Innovation Centre at Long Marston; talk about coming full circle in this strange story!
Activate to view larger image,

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I can't wait for this to come back and bite them, which it will.

 

[Techniquest]

I can't wait for this to come back and bite them, which it will.

I'll counteract that with a ton of optimism! This could well be the solution GWR has been looking for

 

[Brissle Girl]

If the trial is successful then I don't see why other short branches could not be converted, either in the Thames Valley or South West, so long as the range was sufficient to get a unit to the nearest maintenance depot as and when required.

 

[43096]

I can't wait for this to come back and bite them, which it will.

And your expertise on rolling stock is what, exactly?

 

[Peter Sarf]

If the trial is successful then I don't see why other short branches could not be converted, either in the Thames Valley or South West, so long as the range was sufficient to get a unit to the nearest maintenance depot as and when required.

I too am optimistic. Certainly the battery fast charge technology that distinguishes 230001 from its UK class mates seems to be a good opportunity to fill a diesel replacememnt gap.

As for proximity to a maintenance facility - one of the 230s selling points was that an engine/battery raft can easily be swapped onto a road vehicle with not much more equipment than a hard standing and a forklift truck. So these battery powered 230s could happily remain very captive to individual branches.

 

[anthony263]

Could these have enough range to go on the Portishead and Severn Beach line or even.the Southall to Brentford line if it gets reopened?

Maybe TFW should get one put it to work between Bridgend and Maesteg when.they get the Tondu loop sorted

 

[Caaardiff]

Are these the same as TFW's 230s? Which are currently not being very reliable and still only 3 out of the 5 of them have actually made it into passenger service.

 

[D365]

I can't wait for this to come back and bite them, which it will.

I don’t understand why there is a need to berate the people and technology involved in this project. It’s not like there are a lot of options on the market for fast-charge trains - certainly none as established as the Vivarail system.

 

[Melancholia]

Let's hope GWR has learned their lesson with the failed 769s, and trials the first 230 on the Greenford branch for some time, before attempting to mass introduce to the rest of the network (of course only if the trials are successful).

They might be the answer to the shortages GWR is experiencing, or they might not. At this stage, nobody knows yet, and only time will tell.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I can't wait for this to come back and bite them, which it will.

Why, exactly? Do you personally take pleasure in seeing innovative ideas fail?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

And your expertise on rolling stock is what, exactly?

I could ask you the same thing. You know as much about me as I do about you.
But as I’ll say below, I’m going off what I’ve seen so far.

Why, exactly? Do you personally take pleasure in seeing innovative ideas fail?

Of course not, although I can see why you’d think that from my admittedly unwise choice of wording. I don’t like to see wasted money, wasted time and ultimately disruption to passenger services, of which at least one if not all have befallen to
- the woeful 769 flex conversion which produced shoddy awful trains about to leave the scene imminently
- the 799 “Hydroflex” which in the end went nowhere despite two attempts,
- the 314 conversion which has now been scrapped
- 230 round 1 on LNR which was so pioneering and unique that no one could maintain it after the owners went bust, leaving a line without service for a year
- 230 round 2 on TfW which has continued to be delayed due to technical issues and are still not very reliable at all (for that I’ll allow they’re only new to service, but have taken enormous time to actually get into service and two aren’t reliable enough to be operational yet)
- 321 conversion to Breeze 600s which haven’t really gone anywhere
- Enough said about the new lease of life for the 442s

Trialing one on the Greenford branch is all very well, but ordering 67 more carriages before this trial has even commenced is really counting chickens before they’ve hatched in a rather alarming way.

Please understand I don’t just say things for the fun of being miserable and cynical I haven’t seen a successful conversion project of old stock apart from perhaps the one that replaced 70 year old tiny trains that also came from the tube, and I’m not thrilled by the prospect of yet more customers being messed around by more of these projects, especially when there were talks of a tender from a brand new fleet. Anyway, getting a recycled train approaching its 50s instead of a brand new fleet - which HSS and electrified Thames Valley did also just get - is not great at all.
If these recycled trains give sterling service, I’ll apologise for ever doubting them.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Trialing one on the Greenford branch is all very well, but ordering 67 more carriages before this trial has even commenced is really counting chickens before they’ve hatched in a rather alarming way.

I think there’s a big difference between “ordering” 67 carriages, and picking up for (presumably) something approaching scrap value, vehicles which if the trial is successful can be used.

There was I would guess a “now or never” opportunity to take them, else the administrators would have disposed of them in the process of winding up the company. The cost will have been minimal and in the grand scheme of things, loose change.

If the trial is a success, it will be a lot easier to persuade HM Treasury to release the purse strings to bring more into service than it would be for a new build of units, and the timescales much more rapid too given the need to go to tender for new stock.

 

[FGW_DID]

but ordering 67 more carriages

I believe the extra vehicles were “thrown in as a job lot” with 230001.

 

[DidcotDickie]

I believe the extra vehicles were “thrown in as a job lot” with 230001.

That is what Mark Hopwood, GWR MD said at a presentation to the RCTS in Didcot some weeks ago. Apparently the Vivarail administrators had thrown in the spare D78 carriages as part of the deal whereby GWR (on behalf of the DfT) had acquired some of Vivarail's assets. He was wondering what to do with them

 

[Peter Sarf]

I can't wait for this to come back and bite them, which it will.

The thing is with innovation it is invariably does NOT have a dead certainty of success. Otherwise the innovation would have happened a lot earlier and would now be boring low risk.

I could ask you the same thing. You know as much about me as I do about you.
But as I’ll say below, I’m going off what I’ve seen so far.

Of course not, although I can see why you’d think that from my admittedly unwise choice of wording. I don’t like to see wasted money, wasted time and ultimately disruption to passenger services, of which at least one if not all have befallen to
- the woeful 769 flex conversion which produced shoddy awful trains about to leave the scene imminently
- the 799 “Hydroflex” which in the end went nowhere despite two attempts,
- the 314 conversion which has now been scrapped
- 230 round 1 on LNR which was so pioneering and unique that no one could maintain it after the owners went bust, leaving a line without service for a year
- 230 round 2 on TfW which has continued to be delayed due to technical issues and are still not very reliable at all (for that I’ll allow they’re only new to service, but have taken enormous time to actually get into service and two aren’t reliable enough to be operational yet)
- 321 conversion to Breeze 600s which haven’t really gone anywhere
- Enough said about the new lease of life for the 442s

All suffering the risks that come with innovation. But I would say regarding the LNR units that a parallel would be if Siemens were to go bust you might see a similar problem with what they have been contracted to maintain (350s). Obviously alternative arrangements would be made - but these could have been made by LNR for the 230s. After all TfW have soldiered on and things there seem to be progressing. Furthermore GWR are taking on another (big) part.

Trialing one on the Greenford branch is all very well, but ordering 67 more carriages before this trial has even commenced is really counting chickens before they’ve hatched in a rather alarming way.

The 67 carriages were not ordered. They were sitting there at scrap value. The only real cost that cannot be recovered is the storage cost for them until they are used or finally broken up.

Please understand I don’t just say things for the fun of being miserable and cynical I haven’t seen a successful conversion project of old stock apart from perhaps the one that replaced 70 year old tiny trains that also came from the tube, and I’m not thrilled by the prospect of yet more customers being messed around by more of these projects, especially when there were talks of a tender from a brand new fleet. Anyway, getting a recycled train approaching its 50s instead of a brand new fleet - which HSS and electrified Thames Valley did also just get - is not great at all.
If these recycled trains give sterling service, I’ll apologise for ever doubting them.

One of the key things about what GWR have taken on is the fast charge technology. When this is successful (because it has to be !) this could well be applied to brand new trains. I expect the important part of what GWR have taken on cost wise is the intellectual rights and the staff. The old coaches and to a greater extent the Marston Vale units are probably just a nice to have that really are not a significant cost and most of which can be recovered via scrap value.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Are these the same as TFW's 230s? Which are currently not being very reliable and still only 3 out of the 5 of them have actually made it into passenger service.

From what i understand Vivarail took the D78 bodyshells and bogies and "titivated" them. 230001 and 230002 can be regarded as prototypes. 230003-005 as diesel electrics and 230006-010 as battery hybrids with diesel self charging.

230001 was revamped underneath with traction batteries and charging gear replacing the Ford diesels. The other two batches af 230 still have the Ford diesels but used in different ways.

Vivarail and the press told us the traction modules could be quickly swapped with a stacker truck, and this seems to have happened very frequently at Bletchley - to the extent that Vivarail were giving up on diesel before they went into administration.

I have no doubt 230003-005 could have their traction modules replaced by battery modules and put to work on GWR branches. Pity that Vivarail + GWR + DfT didnt make a concerted effort prior to December 2022. Obviously those units would not have been freed from Marston Vale until replaced by 196s as it happens.

 

[norbitonflyer]

- the 799 “Hydroflex” which in the end went nowhere despite two attempts,
- the 314 conversion which has now been scrapped

These were proof-of-concept test beds and never intended for revenue service. Some of the technical stuff was in the former passanger areas, partly for ease of access by the staff testing it.

 

[Dfatcontroller]

- the 314 conversion which has now been scrapped

Are you referring to the Hydrogen conversion at Bo'ness?
That unit was very much still at Bo'ness on Friday 05/05/23.

 

[Invincible]

Are you referring to the Hydrogen conversion at Bo'ness?
That unit was very much still at Bo'ness on Friday 05/05/23.

But the fuel cells and batteries were returned to the University and supplier?
The supplier hopes to provide the technology to other converted D/EMUs or new build trains.

Fuel Cell & Clean Energy Solutions | Ballard Power

Ballard Power is the leading global provider of innovative clean energy fuel cell solutions that offer superior performance at a reduced operating cost.

www.ballardmotivesolutions.com

Looks like the DfT may fund more hydrogen and battery tests, but with new build trains rather than conversions?. However other countries seem to be taking the lead, so the DfT might see how other countries are doing?. Which might be sad as UK companies like Ballard and Vivarail seemed to be making progress. Just hope the Greenford fast charge test with passengers goes well!.

 

[TurboMan]

Possibly 3 units (numbers n/k at this time) will be moving to Reading TCD in the latter half of this month.

That might be a little optimistic, given that safety validation and training activities have yet to be undertaken.

However, the plan to move 230001 from Bletchley to Long Marston by road this weekend is still on (fingers crossed).

 

[Roger B]

It's all gone very quiet .... Is the Greenford battery trial still happening - are any timescales known?