GWR Class 800

[WatcherZero]

Its mostly a quirk of the 787. Boeing tried to create a dispersed supply chain with worldwide suppliers and multiple manufacturers producing the same parts as a way of offering redundancy in supply and opening access to foreign markets but it backfired spectacularly leading to serious delays in foreign produced parts reaching the factory and poor quality components so to rectify it they ended up having to buy out suppliers and try and rebuild a domestic supply chain to the point of 40% of component suppliers either being replaced with domestic producers or bought out.

 

[fowler9]

I thought (hoped) it was quite obvious that I knew, but my point being that when the whole fuss was going on in the media over the procurement order going to Siemens - it was always implied that Bombardier was a British company based in Derby, while Siemens was a German company.

Apologies mate. Stuff doesn't always come across that clearly via the gift of digital media. Not even that I am saying you didn't make it clear, just that at the time I read it it went over my head. Probably my fault.

 

[Bayum]

Any news on when we can expect to see videos of the train moving user its own electric power?

 

[455driver]

Yes, I think Siemens produced various posters showing where all the bits came from.

Nevertheless Siemens is German and Bombardier obviously British....!

Oops now I see the joke!

 

[notadriver]

Two 91s wouldn't draw much more current than the White Rose set did - and that thing worked relatively well.

It would probably be more efficient than using shortened single locomotive sets though..... wouldn't have to lug DVTs if nothing else.

I don't think the White Rose was allowed to draw as much current as it would on high speed lines - the logs I've seen are nothing special in terms of acceleration. Also with Pendolinos power restricted for energy consumption I can't see it happening. But you're second suggestion is probably better.

 

[Townsend Hook]

Their logistics and international supply chain is amazing. Aircraft are transferred across the USA by rail.

All good and well until the train derails and they fall in a river

http://www.usatoday.com/story/today...lls-boeing-737-fueslages-into-river/12258639/

 

[17jwarman]

I honestly think the class 800 is a step in the right direction. Yes the mk3 may be quieter but they are old now. I feel that all new trains running diesel should have electric capabilities. Running diesel under wires is such a waste of money. Kings cross to hull for example? Or the crosscountry route? The manchester-Bournemouth section after 2020 will run almost entirley under wires/by third rail. Only the section between oxford and coventry wont be electrified. All i ever see with the dft is cascading rolling stock. People! Why dont we just buy new stock. I live in the southwest where no electric lines go and no electric lines are going to come and we have to survive on pacers and 150s when my cousins in london get 377s and 387s and 378s and stuff. Its not fair. We need to sort out diesel once and for all because as much as it is effective, it is killing us.

 

[sbatts43]

I honestly think the class 800 is a step in the right direction. Yes the mk3 may be quieter but they are old now. I feel that all new trains running diesel should have electric capabilities. Running diesel under wires is such a waste of money. Kings cross to hull for example? Or the crosscountry route? The manchester-Bournemouth section after 2020 will run almost entirley under wires/by third rail. Only the section between oxford and coventry wont be electrified. All i ever see with the dft is cascading rolling stock. People! Why dont we just buy new stock. I live in the southwest where no electric lines go and no electric lines are going to come and we have to survive on pacers and 150s when my cousins in london get 377s and 387s and 378s and stuff. Its not fair. We need to sort out diesel once and for all because as much as it is effective, it is killing us.

The Prime Minister said In PMQ last Wednesday that the Hitachi trains will be built In Britain, not Japan, giving 700 new jobs to the north east. I thought they were built In Japan and shipped over here, or have I got It wrong?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The Prime Minister said In PMQ last Wednesday that the Hitachi trains will be built In Britain, not Japan, giving 700 new jobs to the north east. I thought they were built In Japan and shipped over here, or have I got It wrong?

First few built in Japan, the majority in Shildon.

 

[najaB]

Will they need to do a Grand Tour at some point to ensure that the sums which say the 800s will fit platforms without fouling anything are actually correct?

 

[swt_passenger]

Will they need to do a Grand Tour at some point to ensure that the sums which say the 800s will fit platforms without fouling anything are actually correct?

They haven't said the 800s will fit existing platforms, but there's millions allocated to alter them on the various routes.

 

[sbatts43]

First few built in Japan, the majority in Shildon.

Thanks for correcting me Peter.

 

[fgwrich]

They haven't said the 800s will fit existing platforms, but there's millions allocated to alter them on the various routes.

I'm just thinking how fun it'll be to board one of these things in Bristol Temple Meads if they end up using some of the rather curvy through platforms - it can already be quite a step up / across the gap to board some of the existing rolling stock stopping there, let alone with a longer 26M coach.

 

[AlexNL]

......and if all goes well Hitachi could in the future move some research here and expend the factory. Hopefully the present factory is just a start with more to come !

I don't think that will be happening anytime soon. Hitachi is in the process of acquiring the AnsaldoBreda assets from Finmeccanica, with that come a few production facilities in Italy that have been producing trains for more than a hundred years*.

I would not be surprised if Hitachi uses these plants in Italy for bodyshell works and all that, and that Newton Aycliffe will be responsible for assembly, commissioning, etc.

* Let's not get into the quality of the produced works - that is something which can be fixed.

 

[jopsuk]

Will they need to do a Grand Tour at some point to ensure that the sums which say the 800s will fit platforms without fouling anything are actually correct?

they'll use the LIDAR gauging train first to check the modifications that have been made based on previous surveys and the vehicle data files have been done to specification.

 

[sprinterguy]

The Prime Minister said In PMQ last Wednesday that the Hitachi trains will be built In Britain, not Japan, giving 700 new jobs to the north east. I thought they were built In Japan and shipped over here, or have I got It wrong?

To add a little more detail to what Peter has said, three pre-production (two 5-car and one 9-car) and ten production trainsets are being built in Japan and shipped over, while the remainder of the DfT sanctioned class 800/801 order for the Great Western and East Coast will be built at Shildon.

The 29 AT300 sets (7 x 9-car and 22 x 5-car) recently ordered for Soutth West services will also be built in Japan in order to speed their delivery time.

 

[fgwrich]

To add a little more detail to what Peter has said, three pre-production (two 5-car and one 9-car) and ten production trainsets are being built in Japan and shipped over, while the remainder of the DfT sanctioned class 800/801 order for the Great Western and East Coast will be built at Shildon.

The 29 AT300 sets (7 x 9-car and 22 x 5-car) recently ordered for Soutth West services will also be built in Japan in order to speed their delivery time.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the DfT order was coming over effectively in Kit form from Kasado? I.e the metalwork cut out, Newton Aycliffe does the assembly?

 

[NotATrainspott]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the DfT order was coming over effectively in Kit form from Kasado? I.e the metalwork cut out, Newton Aycliffe does the assembly?

Effectively yes. Hitachi haven't yet committed to bringing the friction-stir welding technology to Newton Aycliffe, which would then make it possible for them to build the bodyshells. However, if Hitachi Rail Europe expands as much as they want to in the European market, there would be a strong case for bringing it here. If they have to expand their friction-stir welding facilities to cope with demand across the world, they may as well do so at Newton Aycliffe rather than expanding in Japan. All the rolling stock manufacturers know just how much the UK rail market is expanding and just how many more carriages will need to be delivered in the next decades and then eventually replaced later on, so it's not as if the work is going to dry up quickly. AT300s could replace all the HSTs plus the post-privatisation 125mph express DMUs and that would take Newton Aycliffe up to when the HS2 orders will need building, which Hitachi will be well-placed for given that they have the Shinkansen experience.

 

[jimm]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the DfT order was coming over effectively in Kit form from Kasado? I.e the metalwork cut out, Newton Aycliffe does the assembly?

How many more times does the amount of UK and European components going into these trains have to be pointed out? Lots will be coming from rather closer to home than Japan. And lots of the parts will have to be shipped out to Japan for the trains being built over there.

Given that the only place Hitachi has its stir-welding equipment for the time being is Japan, that doesn't give them a lot of choice about where the bodyshells come from - but this is, as I noted before, no different from the Pendolino bodyshells being shipped from Italy to Birmingham by Alstom.

Here are the diagrams again

http://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/hitach...liers-for-class-800-801-trains-for-iep-374714

http://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/hitach...il-europe-for-the-class-800-801-trains-374715

 

[455driver]

They haven't said the 800s will fit existing platforms, but there's millions allocated to alter them on the various routes.

Or they could have designed them to fit within the current infrastructure saving millions in the process!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Given that the only place Hitachi has its stir-welding equipment for the time being is Japan, that doesn't give them a lot of choice about where the bodyshells come from

Even though Hitachi stated that if more orders were forthcoming they would look to install a stir welding plant over here!

I wonder what happened?

 

[najaB]

Or they could have designed them to fit within the current infrastructure saving millions in the process!

Sheesh... they just can't win: you get people bemoaning the fact that the UK loading gauge is limiting, and when they try to sort it out you get people complaining that they're wasting money and should use smaller rolling stock!

 

[jimm]

Or they could have designed them to fit within the current infrastructure saving millions in the process!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Even though Hitachi stated that if more orders were forthcoming they would look to install a stir welding plant over here!

I wonder what happened?

Saving millions? Really? What about the extra 23m coaches or additional trains that would be needed to provide additional seating capacity to cope with growth instead?

The 'more orders' was over and above the current work line up for the plant, ie the DfT-led IEP orders and the AT200s for Scotland. I doubt five years' work would be enough to pay back the costs of a welding line. Should they win contracts amounting to another five years' work then the maths would presumably look a bit different.

 

[455driver]

Sheesh... they just can't win: you get people bemoaning the fact that the UK loading gauge is limiting, and when they try to sort it out you get people complaining that they're wasting money and should use smaller rolling stock!

So all the upgrades take the lines to full UIC interoperability spec do they?

No, thought not so its hardly 'fixed' is it!
Its just another fudge (costing millions) and doesn't 'fix' anything, it just makes it a bit closer to UIC spec!

 

[najaB]

Its just another fudge (costing millions) and doesn't 'fix' anything, it just makes it a bit closer to UIC spec!

And the next round of upgrades takes it closer still...

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Or they could have designed them to fit within the current infrastructure saving millions in the process!

The coach length and bogie centre used by the AT300 design was a result of British Rail Research work for the IC250 program, which concluded a 26 metre carriage was the most efficient and cost effective design design to take forward.

 

[Dave1987]

Saving millions? Really? What about the extra 23m coaches or additional trains that would be needed to provide additional seating capacity to cope with growth instead?

The 'more orders' was over and above the current work line up for the plant, ie the DfT-led IEP orders and the AT200s for Scotland. I doubt five years' work would be enough to pay back the costs of a welding line. Should they win contracts amounting to another five years' work then the maths would presumably look a bit different.

er I believe the AT200 order was placed after Hitachi made that commitment to investing more in the plant if they got more orders in.

 

[Class377/5]

Sheesh... they just can't win: you get people bemoaning the fact that the UK loading gauge is limiting, and when they try to sort it out you get people complaining that they're wasting money and should use smaller rolling stock!

Not smaller rolling stock but shorter. Ie within the same guage as now.

Saving millions? Really? What about the extra 23m coaches or additional trains that would be needed to provide additional seating capacity to cope with growth instead?

Saving hunderds of millions yes! According to NR the costs are £258m in 2011/12 costs.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...USCll9JV42OF2NAJw&sig2=kVo4hWKXC6MOHqrPIaGFWg

Extra 23m coaches? Well whats wrong with a 10x 23m (230m) design rather than a 9x 26m (234m) design?

Thoses hundreds of millions will pay for the extra capacity. Regular EMU (387) runs around £1.5m per carriage. The savings would mean the same as 172 new build carriages outright. And your still building trains of similar length so the costs won't be too different. I'm sure Northern/TPE would love 172 new build carriages or even at double the price (say bi modes), 86 carriages.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Not smaller rolling stock but shorter. Ie within the same guage as now.



Saving hunderds of millions yes! According to NR the costs are £258m in 2011/12 costs.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...USCll9JV42OF2NAJw&sig2=kVo4hWKXC6MOHqrPIaGFWg

Extra 23m coaches? Well whats wrong with a 10x 23m (230m) design rather than a 9x 26m (234m) design?

Thoses hundreds of millions will pay for the extra capacity. Regular EMU (387) runs around £1.5m per carriage. The savings would mean the same as 172 new build carriages outright. And your still building trains of similar length so the costs won't be too different. I'm sure Northern/TPE would love 172 new build carriages or even at double the price (say bi modes), 86 carriages.

The IEP infrastructure costs also include the cost of upgrading the power supplies on the ECML to cope with having many more electric trains running on the line, as well as the cost of upgrading the Paddington to Airport Junction OHLE to modern standards.

Gauge-clearing to allow 26m carriages is a one-time cost which will then enable those carriage lengths for trains well into the future. The IEP uses the 26m Mk5 dynamic envelope which has been the standard for new and rebuilt infrastructure for decades now. The works being done for the ECML and GWML mean that the work would already be done for CrossCountry services as well as any other >23m rolling stock in future. If I'm not mistaken, the same works would also make it easier to run 2.8m wide 23m rolling stock like 323s on more routes in future, meaning more passenger capacity without extra train length.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How much extra juice will the 800s pull from the overhead compared with a class 91?

 

[notadriver]

I would think it would be similar as both have the similar amounts of installed power.