GWR PAYG

[twitch7443]

Hello all,
I've been using the GWR PAYG smartcard for the last couple of months ever since they first introduced the scheme, despite a couple issues with barriers not reporting me tapping in or out on several occasions it's mostly been fine and it's super convinient for my kind of travel. However, last time I tried to tap out I got error 92 (Card directory corrupt), and subsequently couldn't tap in on the return journey. I've messaged GWR on twitter asking for a replacement card and they told me to call their support, support then told me I would need to get a new card at a station/where i got the original (despite the fact I have an extra card accidentally ordered...), and then call them to get the number change on the PAYG account.

Has anyone else experienced any issues with the PAYG scheme? and has anyone had to change card and do you have any advise on how I can get that done? (perhaps I can vist temple meads and get it swapped to a new card there?)
Would it make sense to close the account and re-open it with the other smartcard I have? (is that even possible without it just reordering another card? which I'd like to avoid)

Many thanks.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

On my second outing with a GWR PAYG railcard the Ticket Inspector on the train had to fiddle about a bit to get his reader to check it, remarking that it was about 50/50 whether they could be read, and adding 'those things are causing a lot of trouble'. Is this a general view?


More generally, what are the consequences of an Inspector's device failing to read a GWR PAYG card? Penalty fare? Detailed questioning about my movements and the tone of beep heard and where? Hints that there could be trouble if I get out at Temple Meads?

 

[twitch7443]

Yeah the general consensus I've had is that they're a little annoying, but no more annoying than say a season ticket on a smart card. As I mostly travelled short journeys, and during busy strike periods with PAYG I did not experience many ticket checks (no more than 5 out of 27 total journeys with PAYG).

Truthfully, I've given up using it, my experience calling GWR was less than great and it failed to accept the tap in earlier today after re-opening the account on a spare smartcard I had. Quite disappointing as the cheaper fares were very useful and I saved a fair amount of money.

As for whether the Inspector's Device fails to read the card, I would assume it depends on what sort of error code gets provided, and at the discretion of who's checking your tickets. I would hope that most would be lenient and understand the situation (given you can provide proof of the account and previous journeys?) - it's a shame that the entire scheme seems to be quite poorly implemented, but I'm not surprised tbh.

 

[StarCrossing]

Fortunately I haven't had any issues, and its introduction has been a huge positive for me.

Sorry if this is stating the obvious, but have you tried tapping multiple times? The are some gates (Bristol Parkway and the "overflow" gates at Temple Meads) where I sometimes have to tap twice. Everywhere else always seems to work first time.

I don't know how much ticket office staff will know about PAYG, but I always find the staff in the Bristol Parkway ticket office incredibly helpful, so if you're passing through I recommend having a chat with them.

 

[twitch7443]

I actually did not try tapping twice, I'll give that a go next time I'm at the station the card needs to be initiated at - I believe it might actually be the spare card not having a specific thing loaded that is required for loading a PAYG account but I'll have a try and report back

Thank you for the advice on Bristol Parkway staff, it's an easy station for me to get to so I'll see if they can advise on what I should do.

UPDATE: After I received an email saying the old account had been closed (despite already opening a new one) I was able to load PAYG onto the card and have been using it when able unfortunately chippenham entrance barriers close early in the evening and it's impossible to tap into the station.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

My PAYG card has worked reasonably well so far, although I have not tried anything more complicated than travelling to Yatton and returning from Weston, which was correctly charged as an off peak senior return to Weston.


However, this Mondays return from SML to SVB is showing correctly as a £1.30 senior railcard return on the journey history, but has been charged to my credit card at the non-railcard price of £1.95. I have made a complaint requesting correction on the complaints section of the main site and await a response.


The GWR website does not inspire confidence, although I now know my way around it enough for it to be useable. Apart from lacking obvious logic it appears to be in two sections, passing from the general section to the ticket purchase section requiring password reentry. There is no obvious link for requesting corrections on the PAYG section, this morning the contact link, and attempts to reach the home page lead to a 'client side error' message.



EDIT:

This, I now realise, is because of a journey about a month ago (Single SML-SVB, 0.65), which I noted had not been charged and assumed would be when another fare raised the total amount above one pound, then forgot about. It points to a major flaw in the system: GWR are running an account but not as far as I can tell providing account statements. A statement being a chronological list of charges incurred, amounts paid and the account balance, a concept that must have come in with the invention of credit, probably in the early stone age, and remains useful today. The closest to an account statement is the email every time they charge, which always says that the balance is £0.00, without adding what they have just charged.

The closest to a statement is the 'My Bookings' PAYG page, which lists the payments taken, but not why, and selecting the payment details link does not break down the payment.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

230711

AUTOFILL

Yesterday's return trip to Severn beach is showing this morning as having been amended on the outward journey to insert the arrival at SVB automatically as an 'AUTOFILL' for an incomplete journey, although I did tap out, got a beep and the journey ended message. I have corrected this to show the reason as tapped out but amended, since there was no evidence for the faulty reader option. This is now still in awaiting correction status.

It appears that an AUTOFILL cancels the automatic delay repay for being twenty five minutes late, although the AUTOFILL did show the actual arrival time of the train. I hope the tapped out but amended option will ensure I have not yet lost one of my three lives. The three lives probably only applies to the incomplete journey status.

I assume the AUTOFILL was based either on me tapping in that afternoon at SVB for the return journey or on tapping in just as the train for Weston left, athough well before the next train to Temple Meads, which got ahead of the delayed outbound SVB train. It would be interesting to know how it would have handled tapping in just before the train for Weston left. My guess is that the system has recorded the tap out at SVB, but processed it incorrectly.

FARE CALCULATION

Otherwise the thing appears to be generally functioning as expected. A return to Weston starting in the morning peak was charged as two PAYG singles, saving a few pence on the anytime return. I assume this is a rounding error.

A single journey from Cam & Dursley to Sea Mills was split into two singles: CDU to Yate, and Yate to SML. The passage through Yate was recorded as 'MULTI_USE_BOUNDARY'. I assume that this means that the fare table is set up as zonal fares with add-ons for trips outside the zone. Yate is the outer zone boundary. This process also seems to come in a few pence under the listed PAYG single.

CARD READER

Apart from the absence of an account the big gap is that the passenger cannot read their own card. Since I assume ticket examiners are reading your journey details off the card presumably there is some means for a passenger to do so, probably a smart phone app. Are there such things?

COMPLAINTS

My erroneous complaint seems to have vanished into auto-bureacracy with a return email asking for ticket details. This does leave me unclear how I would apply for a correction on a PAYG charge.

 

[Alex365Dash]

Apart from the absence of an account the big gap is that the passenger cannot read their own card. Since I assume ticket examiners are reading your journey details off the card presumably there is some means for a passenger to do so, probably a smart phone app. Are there such things?

I believe this works for GWR PAYG as well but I know on keyGo it works by checking if you’ve touched in - you can do this by using the Ecebs Smart Ticket Checker app on iOS and Android devices that support NFC.

 

[MrJeeves]

It appears that an AUTOFILL cancels the automatic delay repay for being twenty five minutes late, although the AUTOFILL did show the actual arrival time of the train. I hope the tapped out but amended option will ensure I have not yet lost one of my three lives. The three lives probably only applies to the incomplete journey status.

If it's anything like keyGo (and all of the TOC PAYG systems seem to use the same implementation on the backend), autofilled journeys won't count as a "strike", with only incomplete ones counting.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

AUTOFILL continued.

The AUTOFILL is now showing as a conventional pair of taps corresponding to my correction.

The distinction between INCOMPLETE and AUTOFILL has always puzzled me, the obvious assumption being the binary one that either the system knows where I went or it does not. In the AUTOFILL case the system presumably has enough information to guess where I went, but has lost a tap. As I received correct journey started or ended responses on the four taps I presume that the card to terminal interaction is entirely local, the terminal writing to the card what would be next in sequence, whether or not the link that sends the tap record to the system operates correctly. This would mean that the system uses the fact that the next record received from a terminal was a tap in at the same place to judge that there must have been a tap out in the same place.

Had I done the same as the previous Monday and cycled to Cam & Dursley this logic could lead to autofilling a tap out at CDU and charging a return to CDU. For the AUTOFILL tap out at SVB I only needed to change the reason, not the destination, I did not notice whether it was possible to change the destination.

Cycling home from SBV without further taps that day might have lead to a journey needing correction or else conclusion or pay GBP 25 state, which is presumably what would happen if I had in fact not tapped out.

I must look at the Ecebs app, although for the time being it will have to be on my wifes smart phone, I have a not very smart phone, so for post trip forensics.

 

[MrJeeves]

I presume that the card to terminal interaction is entirely local, the terminal writing to the card what would be next in sequence, whether or not the link that sends the tap record to the system operates correctly. This would mean that the system uses the fact that the next record received from a terminal was a tap in at the same place to judge that there must have been a tap out in the same place.

This is correct.

Cycling home from SBV without further taps that day might have lead to a journey needing correction or else conclusion or pay GBP 25 state, which is presumably what would happen if I had in fact not tapped out.

I would guess you would receive one or more emails from GWR prior to being charged £25. GTR, at least, give you a few days to correct this and leave any charge on hold until after you have manually fixed the journey.

 

[Haywain]

My experience of using Thameslink's KeyGo is that on occasion I have had an 'Autofilled' tap, even when I have used the card to open a barrier. Some days later the tap has changed to showing what actually happened. This would be as a result of a lost connection between the barrier and the back office which is later resolved. I think this is what is probably happening in your case and it is nothing untoward or to be concerned about. Looking at what's on the card will not be of any help at all with this.

 

[Benjwri]

This is correct.


I would guess you would receive one or more emails from GWR prior to being charged £25. GTR, at least, give you a few days to correct this and leave any charge on hold until after you have manually fixed the journey.

I can confirm this is correct, you receive warning emails. I've also found GWR's customer support to be very helpful, and anything you cannot fix they will do so for you. For me the replied in a matter of hours and sorted it.

 

[Snow1964]

My only frustration is the boundary of the system excludes by local station, even though we are within 20 miles (as crow flies) of Bristol Temple Meads.

Oddly my nearest station benefits from extra Metrowest service to Westbury, and Frome or Warminster, but remain out of the PAYG area. GWR really need to sort the anomaly and add a few stations.

 

[Haywain]

GWR really need to sort the anomaly and add a few stations.

The "anomaly" of stations being outside the boundary is always going to exist without having a nationwide system.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

I can confirm this is correct, you receive warning emails. I've also found GWR's customer support to be very helpful, and anything you cannot fix they will do so for you. For me the replied in a matter of hours and sorted it.

Encouraging in one sense, not in another, in that your comment implies that it has happened more than once. In attempting to claim what I thought was a mistake I had difficulty finding how to communicate, used the messaging facility and received a fairly dismissive message, probably automated, asking for more information. Which reminds me, I have not yet tried to claim my 16p delay repay for the late train.

Does anyone know what information is written to the card and read by on board staff? Just an alternating sequence of ins and outs, or does it include places and times, even iterative fare approximations? I assume the railcard is identified, otherwise there would be no point in requiring you to carry it, although since they have required you to prove that it exists when registering to the PAYG card carrying it does seem to be unnecessary.

 

[swt_passenger]

… I assume the railcard is identified, otherwise there would be no point in requiring you to carry it, although since they have required you to prove that it exists when registering to the PAYG card carrying it does seem to be unnecessary.

On the other hand, a requirement to have your railcard with you is a fairy straightforward way of ensuring you don’t lend it to someone else to use with a paper ticket?

 

[sleepy_hollow]

My only frustration is the boundary of the system excludes by local station, even though we are within 20 miles (as crow flies) of Bristol Temple Meads.

Oddly my nearest station benefits from extra Metrowest service to Westbury, and Frome or Warminster, but remain out of the PAYG area. GWR really need to sort the anomaly and add a few stations.

Yes, it could be nice to include Severn Tunnel Junction, or Taunton. It does seem odd that the area stops at the tunnel, despite TfW participating. Presumably these systems are still an experiment, and give that the terminals appeared at Sea Mills about a decade before they came into use there could be construction scheduling problems.

On the other hand, a requirement to have your railcard with you is a fairy straightforward way of ensuring you don’t lend it to someone else to use with a paper ticket?

Presumably, although I could do that when not using it myself. I suppose the same goes for the PAYG card. I could lend it to someone else, which would not matter unless they were not entitled to railcard fares.

 

[MrJeeves]

Does anyone know what information is written to the card and read by on board staff? Just an alternating sequence of ins and outs, or does it include places and times, even iterative fare approximations? I assume the railcard is identified, otherwise there would be no point in requiring you to carry it, although since they have required you to prove that it exists when registering to the PAYG card carrying it does seem to be unnecessary.

Check out the keyGo thread. The tech is the same: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/keygo-on-gtr-what-does-an-inspector-see.249807/#post-6264578

 

[sleepy_hollow]

And this morning I discover that the system has made a complete mess of yesterday's journey.

I tapped in at Sea Mills for the 0854, changed at Temple Meads to the 0938 for Worcester, tapping out at Cam & Dursley at 10:19. I cycled to Yate tapping in at 17:12, and changed at Temple Meads to tap out at Sea Mills at about 18:35. All taps produced the correct audio and visual responses from the readers.

This has been recorded and billed as a journey from CDU to Yate between 10:19 & 11:06, for £2.80, and a Yate to Unknown journey, charged at £0.00, the latter carrying the 'needs correction or pay £25.00 ' warning. It appears that the Sea Mills card reader is not transmitting information so the system has made the best it can with the information received from CDU and Yate, and relevant train times, although not assuming that I returned from Yate to CDU, perhaps because it recognised the reader as on the Bristol bound platform.

I have inserted a correction for the journey from Yate, which is being considered. For the morning journey the system does allow origin and destination to be changed, but will not accept 08:45 or any similar time as valid. There also appears to be only one time available for correction.

I also note that the GWR PAYG billing success email received very promptly this morning makes no hint of difficulties, or corrections needed. All it tells me, as usual, is that the account balance is now £0.00, without mentioning even the amount just charged. As a demonstration of waste of space sending a big green square with a large print 'We've taken a payment' message must take the palm. A long string of general advice in small print then follows.

As I remarked before: ".... It does tend to confirm the feeling, as an occasional traveller, that something always happens on a train journey."

Or looking at it another way, the card was inspected on the first, third and fourth trains, the last just as I got off to leave at Sea Mills, all staff appearing content with what their readers told them. A system where you can pass seven successful inspections, and then be threatened with a penalty fare, is best described as Kafkaesque.

Trying to imagine what information is in use, the card presumably acquired the correct sequence of in and out records, because all readers responded in the correct sequence. So why does the system treat the tap out at CDU as a start? Is it set to modify a stop to a start if it is the first tap of the day, or does the reader only send a presence indication to the system?

 

[fandroid]

This all makes me convinced that I shouldn't go near any PAYG Smartcard systems except Oyster.

 

[Mainline421]

And this morning I discover that the system has made a complete mess of yesterday's journey.

I tapped in at Sea Mills for the 0854, changed at Temple Meads to the 0938 for Worcester, tapping out at Cam & Dursley at 10:19. I cycled to Yate tapping in at 17:12, and changed at Temple Meads to tap out at Sea Mills at about 18:35. All taps produced the correct audio and visual responses from the readers.

This has been recorded and billed as a journey from CDU to Yate between 10:19 & 11:06, for £2.80, and a Yate to Unknown journey, charged at £0.00, the latter carrying the 'needs correction or pay £25.00 ' warning. It appears that the Sea Mills card reader is not transmitting information so the system has made the best it can with the information received from CDU and Yate, and relevant train times, although not assuming that I returned from Yate to CDU, perhaps because it recognised the reader as on the Bristol bound platform.

I have inserted a correction for the journey from Yate, which is being considered. For the morning journey the system does allow origin and destination to be changed, but will not accept 08:45 or any similar time as valid. There also appears to be only one time available for correction.

I also note that the GWR PAYG billing success email received very promptly this morning makes no hint of difficulties, or corrections needed. All it tells me, as usual, is that the account balance is now £0.00, without mentioning even the amount just charged. As a demonstration of waste of space sending a big green square with a large print 'We've taken a payment' message must take the palm. A long string of general advice in small print then follows.

View attachment 141588

Or looking at it another way, the card was inspected on the first, third and fourth trains, the last just as I got off to leave at Sea Mills, all staff appearing content with what their readers told them. A system where you can pass seven successful inspections, and then be threatened with a penalty fare, is best described as Kafkaesque.

Trying to imagine what information is in use, the card presumably acquired the correct sequence of in and out records, because all readers responded in the correct sequence. So why does the system treat the tap out at CDU as a start? Is it set to modify a stop to a start if it is the first tap of the day, or does the reader only send a presence indication to the system?

Assuming this works the same as SWR then taps are very occasionally delayed registering and will appear a couple of days later. There's nothing Kafakaesque about it (that's why you weren't threatened in the email), if it's still an incomplete journey tomorrow after a couple of days you'll receive an email to let you know and asking to login to your account to fill in the unknown station, or contact them to explain. It can often guess the station anyway so the majority of people would probably never notice.

A couple of times charges have mysteriously taken a few days longer to appear, and I was once charged 40p extra later on (quick look at history confirmed I'd been under charged a few days previously). But out of >100 journeys (including some combining stopping/starting short and breaks of journey all in one) I've never been incorrectly charged in the end.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

It will be interesting to see what happens but since the email about charging has never yet given useful information it will be surprising if it starts doing so, especially as the interesting information that there had been one autocomplete and one requires correction or else should already have been passed on.

The threat comes from my account where one journey is marked as autocompleted, as it happens with an incorrect autocompletion, and the other was marked as requiring correction to avoid a possible £25 penalty, which I have done and now shows as correction awaiting approval. If approved that will be the only correct charge of the two journeys, the other charge being for a fictitious journey.

The only way not to notice what is happening is never to check your account. That may the modern norm, but I am too old not to keep an eye on expenditure, especially with systems that email to tell you that you have been charged, but not how much. Given that there is no presentation in account form it will be surprising if any adjustments are clear. In conventional accounting the adjustment would appear as a credit against the incorrect autocompletion, and a new charge for the correct journey.

So far I have attempted to use the facility to change the autocorrection, but it does not seem to work, not accepting my time entry.

 

[Mainline421]

It will be interesting to see what happens but since the email about charging has never yet given useful information it will be surprising if it starts doing so, especially as the interesting information that there had been one autocomplete and one requires correction or else should already have been passed on.

The threat comes from my account where one journey is marked as autocompleted, as it happens with an incorrect autocompletion, and the other was marked as requiring correction to avoid a possible £25 penalty, which I have done and now shows as correction awaiting approval. If approved that will be the only correct charge of the two journeys, the other charge being for a fictitious journey.

The only way not to notice what is happening is never to check your account. That may the modern norm, but I am too old not to keep an eye on expenditure, especially with systems that email to tell you that you have been charged, but not how much. Given that there is no presentation in account form it will be surprising if any adjustments are clear. In conventional accounting the adjustment would appear as a credit against the incorrect autocompletion, and a new charge for the correct journey.

So far I have attempted to use the facility to change the autocorrection, but it does not seem to work, not accepting my time entry.

Most likely your account will be corrected automatically within a couple of days if you tapped in/out correctly, so you would only notice if you login before this happens. Although I will be honest and say that I don't check mine very often.

 

[Benjwri]

The only way not to notice what is happening is never to check your account. That may the modern norm, but I am too old not to keep an eye on expenditure, especially with systems that email to tell you that you have been charged, but not how much.

I’ve found the £25 warning is displayed in cases where it isn’t actually going to get charged, and when I genuinely have had a £25 charge upcoming due to a missed tap, they have emailed me. The email has always arrived and been the following, titled ‘GWR PAYG incomplete journeys’:

YOU HAVE AN UNFINISHED JOURNEY​

Benjamin, you’ve got an unfinished journey​

It looks like you weren’t able to complete a journey you made recently by tapping your card at the start or end of your journey.

Please take a moment to check your pay-as-you-go account to amend the unfinished journey and avoid the £25 incomplete journey charge.

Just a reminder that if you use pay-as-you-go and Flexi Season, please don’t load them onto the same smartcard. If you do load them on the same card, we can’t guarantee that our system will select the right ticket or charge the correct fare. So we recommend using two separate smartcards.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

And indeed this morning I find that everything has corrected to the two journeys taken, with the outward trip split at Yate into two journeys as usual. All events are shown as touches and the correct times suggest that they are reported touches rather than inferred touches from my correction to the incomplete journey. For the first time an email message almost contains information, although it wanders on into hinting that I might have failed to tap.

So if GWR know that their system takes time to gather the tap information why hurry to send the customer an incorrect description, charging for a journey not taken and threatening a penalty fare? From the outputs I would rather not imagine the opaque, garbled and unmaintainable code that is running this system. The GWR website is generally confused.

As far as charging goes, although the message says they have charged the correct fare to my account, the 'My Bookings' section, which is where charges made are listed, still shows only the £2.80 for the journey not taken. The email is also incorrect in saying that they recently sent an email telling me that there was in incomplete journey. They did not.

Perhaps you are intended to treat this like a utility account. I do not stand over the electricity meter monitoring consumption, although the promotional material for smart meters does offer a monitor allowing you to study consumption as it happens as one of the advantages.

 

[lachlan]

I’ve been using the card and it saves the hassle of buying tickets every day. Tickets are rarely checked on my commute and when they are I haven’t had any troubles with the smart card.

Sometimes I use it for the last train of the day and I wonder if I could get stuck if the train is cancelled? Since I don’t actually have a ticket. I think on days when I will rely on the last train, I’ll buy a proper ticket which would hopefully mean GWR have an obligation to get me home.

 

[Snow1964]

Sometimes I use it for the last train of the day and I wonder if I could get stuck if the train is cancelled? Since I don’t actually have a ticket. I think on days when I will rely on the last train, I’ll buy a proper ticket which would hopefully mean GWR have an obligation to get me home.

Interesting question, from the name, pay-as-you-go implies if don't go then don't pay.

But I see the point, if don't have a ticket, and haven't paid any money (because collected retrospectively) what obligation do they have, if any if last train doesn't run.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

The correct charges for my open jaw journey (SML-CDU, YAT-SML) appeared about a day after the itinerary was corrected, by adding a £5.60 charge for the outward journey, with no indication that an amendment to the journey had taken place, so strictly speaking I can still claim that the original £2.80 was for a fictitious journey.

Yesterdays return from SML to SVB (£1.30) has still not shown on the account. I glanced at the FAQ and found that they claim to charge journeys by 0430 on the following day. This should obviously be changed to read something like:

'Our systems can be slow to report taps, which may result in a few days delay before you journeys are charged correctly. In the meantime we reserve the right to charge you for fictitious journeys and threaten £25 penalty charges in respect of the tap data we have lost. We do provide facilities for you to input corrections, but these will not necessarily work.'

I suppose for a railway where the product currently dominating station advertising is the £100 penalty fare, the £25 penalty charge is something of a concession.

Apart from the problems mentioned in my contributions to this thread the GWR website does seem generally low grade, starting with the puzzling existence of two separate sites needing separate logins with the same login information. There seems to be a problem interacting with Safari, which produces client errors when attempting to use internal links. It seems quite possible that the area remains restricted because the system is a prototype that is not good enough to expand any further.





******** ********
WEDNESDAY

******* *******

Here we go again, the details and charges for the Friday SVB trip appeared correctly on Tuesday morning, which is about two working days if you assume the computer does not work weekends.

Monday's SML to WSM return appeared this morning but as a pair of 'correction needed or pay £25' emails, again two working days, not dawn the following day.



The gates on platform 1 at WSM were not letting anybody out, whatever their tickets, and required staff assistance, so I had thought there might be trouble there, but the missing items were SML, both start and finish.



I made the corrections, which worked this time, although it still shows as Unkown at both ends, but the status indicator has changed to 'amended awaiting correction'.


The system is plainly still under development. I cannot point the finger at SML because that worked on Friday. I did consider waiting to see if the system would resolve itself automatically but being simultaneosly threatened with two £25 charges I decided to get on with it.

Assuming the problem is slow data transmission the system should be programmed to give a holding message during the waiting period, not a threat.

DELAY REPAY

The 1610 ex WSM being looped at Yatton to allow a late running XC to overtake, it was more than 15 min late at SML so I did expect to find out whether the semi-automatic Delay Repay notification worked, but this is annulled by a journey needing correction. Instead I have an opportunity to find out how to submit a Delay Repay claim for a corrected journey.


PAYG TICKET FOR THE LAST TRAIN

Interesting question, from the name, pay-as-you-go implies if don't go then don't pay.

But I see the point, if don't have a ticket, and haven't paid any money (because collected retrospectively) what obligation do they have, if any if last train doesn't run.

The tap in and out messages at SML include small print at the bottom saying that the ticket expires in 2033, so I assume that a PAYG card is a ticket. Only logical interpretation of the situation.



THURSDAY - GETTING WORSE

Getting worse, I have received an email acknowledging the correction and saying that the correct fare has been charged, probably from a mixture of the times I entered and validator data working its way through the system. In fact the 'My Bookings' tab does not yet show a charge.



Unfortunately looking at the journey history I see that as well as the correct return trip to WSM I now have an incomplete journey with a loose end from SML at 07:42. It seems probable that this is the real tap, and that the SML to WSM journey between 0850 and 0901 * means that I entered the correction as 0850 rather than 0750. So although last time it appeared to overwrite the whole day with real data. This time it has used one of my inputs with three real taps, and left a real tap loose.

There does not seem to be a way of eliminating the loose real tap. I tried putting an exit 10 min later, reproducing what I believe to be the on site method of cancelling a tap in, but was not allowed to confirm it.



*SML to WSM in 11 min - no wonder they are called Network Turbos.

EMAIL ENQUIRY SUBMITTED

So I have submitted a correction and delay repay request via the web form referred to in the completed journey email and await developments.

SATURDAY: HIATUS

The reply was prompt and by email but I thought it could be chatbot, because it addressed all my points, but only by standard sentences about where to do things, including suggesting that the fastest way to correct was to use the PAYG system. I replied that unfortunately this did not address the problem since I had exhausted the PAYG system options. This produced a reply saying that they had set up a complaint for me, giving a reference. So it appears that the form for obtaining help cannot do so, it can only tell you what you should have done. For help, raise a complaint.

The current situation arises because the GWR PAYG system has received all four real touches, but illogically only used one of them to replace my manual entries, using the other to make an incomplete journey. The current status is as below:



The original problem arose because the GWR PAYG system processing runs ahead of the data collection and sent me an email asking for manual correction.

It was worsened by the fact that when I made a manual correction this was immediately frozen and hidden, so I could no longer check or correct it, and I appear to have made an incorrect entry. It is illogical that a manual entry shown as awaiting amendment should be hidden and frozen, it does not need to be either until it is implemented.

I await developments.

Discovering the number of problems that can arise with very limited use I can only assume that people who find that these work smoothly are treating it like a utility meter, and not checking each journey, or responding to correction requests. If I had ignored the request to correct the incomplete journeys, the PAYG system would presumably just have created the two correct journeys between SML & WSM. But if you ignore requests to correct and you are eventually charged the penalty you will presumably be told that you had plenty of opportunities to correct. Or alternatively, as with my experience of rail travel in general, a small sample produces extreme results, large samples tend to the norm, so commuters get many satisfactory trips.

It also seems that data collection from the Sea Mills tap points is slow. Is it sent by carrier pigeon or transcribed manually by the daily cleaner?

 

[sleepy_hollow]

FRIDAY 22 SEPT

Today I received both a reply to my complaint asking for me information to support it, and a standard successful charge notice, balance £0.00. As usual no information about what has been charged, nor anything to indicate that this is a penalty.

My account now shows that in addition to the cost of the journey taken I have been charged a £25 penalty fare. I thought the system was that the days charges were bumped up to £25 in total but apparently not.

This is of course entirely GWR's fault. I have provided the information requested, and also said that if a refund is not made within a week I will initiate a charge back with my bank.


Obviously my aim now is to obtain a refund and then cancel the PAYG card, the financial and convenience benefits do not compensate for the financial risk.