Hope Valley passenger services: Winter 1961

[thesignalman]

The September 1961 to June 1962 WTT shows three type of local passenger services:

1. DMU operations
2. Unspecified operations, which would normally indicate steam-hauled services
3. Trains marked "AT" (accelerated timings)

It is the latter I'm intrigued by. There is evidence to suggest these are diesel-hauled passenger stock - for instance I have found photographic evidence that the D57xx Co-Bos used to bang, thud and clatter their way between Derby and Manchester on stopping services at this time. Derby had a large allocation of these at this date but I don't know what else they used to do, maybe they were all on shed under repair ...

In most cases I have found, "AT" services seem to be on lines with cruel gradients and long tunnels which would certainly be a point in favour for early conversion to diesel operation.

Almost all services on the Hope Valley line are also shown as "AT" at this date (but not on Sundays it seems) and I'm wondering what locos would have operated these. It looks like all but one were served from the Sheffield end (one seems to outstable at Chinley overnight) so the best offering I can come up with is English Electric Type 1s or Brush Type 2s from Darnall shed. Can anybody confirm or disprove this?

John

 

[D6130]

I have found photographic evidence that the D57xx Co-Bos used to bang, thud and clatter their way between Derby and Manchester on stopping services at this time.

Would those services not have run via Bakewell?

 

[thesignalman]

Would those services not have run via Bakewell?

Of course. I'm simply quoting those as a known comparison marked as "AT".

John

 

[D6130]

Of course. I'm simply quoting those as a known comparison marked as "AT".

 

[Magdalia]

"AT" (accelerated timings)

AT accelerated Timings seems to be a Midland Lines of the LMR thing. I have a 1966 WTT which gives a fuller definition.

AT - Accelerated Timings - for loadings see Loads of Passenger Trains booklet

In most cases I have found, "AT" services seem to be on lines with cruel gradients

Almost all services on the Hope Valley line are also shown as "AT" at this date (but not on Sundays it seems) and I'm wondering what locos would have operated these. It looks like all but one were served from the Sheffield end (one seems to outstable at Chinley overnight) so the best offering I can come up with is English Electric Type 1s or Brush Type 2s from Darnall shed.

My interpretation is that AT indicates that the trailing load is restricted, possibly to ensure that the train can always run without banking assistance.

But I don't think it gives any indication as to whether the train is steam or diesel hauled.

The Hope Valley service was all LMR until the "penetrating lines" reorganisation of 1958, when the Chesterfield-Cudworth section of the Midland Main Line was transferred to the Eastern Region.

For a while after 1958 the ex Midland and ex Great Central lines of the Eastern Region's Sheffield area continued to operate almost completely independently. Your winter 1961 timetable is just at the point where that starts to change. In particular, the first diesel locomotives had just arrived in the Sheffield area, and Grimesthorpe shed closed in September 1961.

It is a misconception that the Sheffield-Chinley service was self contained and operated entirely from the Sheffield end. In practice it was the eastern end of a Sheffield-Manchester Central via Stockport Tiviot Dale service. Most locomotives would work through from Sheffield to Manchester Central and back, or vice versa. I'm not clear what actually happened at Chinley, whether the trains shunted out of the station or remained in the platform.

In spring 1961, when the Brush Type 2s were new at Darnall, about half of the fleet were based at Grimesthorpe for crew training, and that included a regular round trip to Manchester Central and back. I don't know if that continued after the crew training was completed. EE Type 1s would not be expected on passenger train because of lack of train heat, though they are known to have worked special trains to Edale and Hope for ramblers at Bank Holidays. In 1961 the Sheffield area still had plenty of steam traction that could also be used on the trains to Chinley and Manchester.

Trains operated from the Manchester end would have been steam hauled, possibly with locomotives from Trafford Park. I'm not aware of any Co-Bos ever working the Hope Valley line, though they did pass through Chinley in pairs on St Pancras-Manchester Central expresses that ran via Matlock in the period before they were withdrawn for modifications.

 

[70014IronDuke]

The September 1961 to June 1962 WTT shows three type of local passenger services: ...

It is the latter I'm intrigued by. There is evidence to suggest these are diesel-hauled passenger stock - for instance I have found photographic evidence that the D57xx Co-Bos used to bang, thud and clatter their way between Derby and Manchester on stopping services at this time. Derby had a large allocation of these at this date but I don't know what else they used to do, maybe they were all on shed under repair ...

ITYWF that the Metrovicks were all in store by the end of 1960, such were their numerous problems. I saw a few in the summer - early autumn 1960 on Manchester Central - St Pancras workings, and on the down "Condor", but even then I believe they were on their last legs - I suspect about half of them were already out of service. I doubt they worked the Hope VAlley services, except, possibly, on fill in turns or when Trafford Park (which I presume supplied locos + crews for the line) had nothing else available. But that would have been very rare - chances are there would always be a Black 5 or 2-6-4T in steam, and far more reliable. Plus, it's doubtful links that worked the Hope Valley would be trained on Metrovicks.

 

[Gloster]

A few of them did not go to store until 1961, but it is possible that this was merely official confirmation of them being out of use, which had been the true situation for some months.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Some of the Chinley to Sheffield stoppers (such as they were) remained steam hauled right through to 1966 pending a decision on the future of the line - Buxton Shed also had a hand providing Ivatt 2MTs.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I'm not clear what actually happened at Chinley, whether the trains shunted out of the station or remained in the platform.

Back then Chinley had four through platforms so they probably stayed on the slow line platform if being overtaken.

 

[Andy873]

In most cases I have found, "AT" services seem to be on lines with cruel gradients and long tunnels which would certainly be a point in favour for early conversion to diesel operation.

Almost all services on the Hope Valley line are also shown as "AT" at this date

John,

This probably doesn't help you much but I've gone through my passenger WTT's covering the routes Todmorden & Colne to Preston East Lancs. They are summer 1962, winter '63 and summer '64 for the LM region (Central lines Section F), not one of them shows any service marked as AT.

The only mention of timings are the usual D1, D2, & D3 for DMU services, the rest are steam hauled. The WTT's also cover the Hellifield to Bolton route and the Manchester Victoria to Accrington, again no mention of any AT's.

Andy.

 

[47296lastduff]

I have limited notes for the first half of 1961, and these show that the Sheffield Mid to Manchester Central trains were still steam. I noted the train from Sheff to Man arriving about 0915 a couple of times, behind 61152 (41A Darnall) on 13/03/61,and 45594 (41C Millhouses) on 21/04/61.
At the same time the services from Derby to Man were pretty solidly Peaks, with the odd Royal Scot appearing.

 

[Harman]

Sorry to show my ignorance but what does ITYWF actually mean?
Thanks.

 

[Harvester]

Sorry to show my ignorance but what does ITYWF actually mean?
Thanks.

Internet slang:- “I think you will find”

 

[thesignalman]

Thank you everybody for their responses. I would re-emphasise that I did not say the Co-Bos worked on the Hope Valley, I seem to be repeatedly mis-quoted on that.

As is often the case, comments like AT and Timing Loads are generally for the reference of the timetable compilers and don't actually tell drivers and signalmen much of use. To date I cannot find any "AT" service that does not appear to have been diesel-hauled but I absolutely agree this is never stated anywhere, so it is indeed possible the Hope Valley services were steam-hauled, but what would the benefit be in limiting the length of the train or possibly providing a larger steam locomotive?

At the date in question (Winter 1961) I cannot agree with Magdalia and 70014IronDuke. The service does appear to be mostly self-contained and worked from the Sheffield end. A closer re-check does show one starting from Manchester before the first arrival, though, which I missed before. I already said that one is out-stationed at Chinley overnight - if steam-worked that would require significant light engine movements which are not shown in the timetable.

This timetable shows roughly 50% of the workings running through to Manchester with the remainder turning at Chinley. Running round would have taken place in the Down Slow platform and the train then almost certainly shunted to the Up Slow platform. (From memory there was no direct departure facilitiy for passenger trains). The yard could be used for longer turn-rounds and overnight.

Best regards,

John

 

[Magdalia]

At the date in question (Winter 1961) I cannot agree with Magdalia and 70014IronDuke. The service does appear to be mostly self-contained and worked from the Sheffield end. A closer re-check does show one starting from Manchester before the first arrival, though, which I missed before. I already said that one is out-stationed at Chinley overnight - if steam-worked that would require significant light engine movements which are not shown in the timetable.

This timetable shows roughly 50% of the workings running through to Manchester with the remainder turning at Chinley. Running round would have taken place in the Down Slow platform and the train then almost certainly shunted to the Up Slow platform. (From memory there was no direct departure facilitiy for passenger trains). The yard could be used for longer turn-rounds and overnight.

I have the relevant Eastern Region public timetable. This, and the LMR equivalent, are on Timetable World.

The 7.51 am and 5.30 pm ex Sheffield are advertised through to Manchester.

The 5.8 pm SX/5.12 pm SO and 10.48 pm from Chinley are advertised through from Manchester starting 4.10 pm and 9.30 pm.

The 4.24 pm SX from Chinley started from Stockport Tiviot Dale at 3.48 pm.

But these were not the only through workings.

For example the 1.5 pm Chinley-Sheffield was formed by the 11.45 am Manchester Central-Chinley. This was the turn used for crew training on diesel locomotives, but I have never established which train the diesels worked from Sheffield to Manchester. Possibly they started on 7.51 am Sheffield-Manchester but it could have been 7.3 am Sheffield-Chinley then 8.18 am Chinley-Manchester.

I suspect that the 3.48 pm SX Stockport Tiviot Dale-Sheffield was return of 12.51 pm Sheffield-Chinley and 2.56 pm SX Chinley-Stockport Tiviot Dale.

For steam traction, running through between Sheffield and Manchester and vice versa avoided the need to turn locomotives at Chinley. For how long did Chinley have an operational turntable?

I have a vague recollection that the locomotive for the 7 am from Chinley came from Buxton, though I can't remember the source for that. SX this ran through to Rotherham Masboro, though this is not shown in the LMR timetable.

 

[Harman]

Internet slang:- “I think you will find”

Thanks

 

[D6130]

For steam traction, running through between Sheffield and Manchester and vice versa avoided the need to turn locomotives at Chinley. For how long did Chinley have an operational turntable?

Did Chinley ever have a turntable?....or were steam locomotives turned on the triangle?

 

[jfollows]

Did Chinley ever have a turntable?....or were steam locomotives turned on the triangle?

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/c/chinley/ says it did, but not when it was removed

 

[D6130]

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/c/chinley/ says it did, but not when it was removed

Thanks!

 

[thesignalman]

I have the relevant Eastern Region public timetable. This, and the LMR equivalent, are on Timetable World.

The 7.51 am and 5.30 pm ex Sheffield are advertised through to Manchester.

The 5.8 pm SX/5.12 pm SO and 10.48 pm from Chinley are advertised through from Manchester starting 4.10 pm and 9.30 pm.

The 4.24 pm SX from Chinley started from Stockport Tiviot Dale at 3.48 pm.

But these were not the only through workings.

For example the 1.5 pm Chinley-Sheffield was formed by the 11.45 am Manchester Central-Chinley. This was the turn used for crew training on diesel locomotives, but I have never established which train the diesels worked from Sheffield to Manchester. Possibly they started on 7.51 am Sheffield-Manchester but it could have been 7.3 am Sheffield-Chinley then 8.18 am Chinley-Manchester.

I suspect that the 3.48 pm SX Stockport Tiviot Dale-Sheffield was return of 12.51 pm Sheffield-Chinley and 2.56 pm SX Chinley-Stockport Tiviot Dale.

For steam traction, running through between Sheffield and Manchester and vice versa avoided the need to turn locomotives at Chinley. For how long did Chinley have an operational turntable?

I have a vague recollection that the locomotive for the 7 am from Chinley came from Buxton, though I can't remember the source for that. SX this ran through to Rotherham Masboro, though this is not shown in the LMR timetable.

The above schedules, of course, correspond with the working timetable I'm using for reference. If the 7 am from Chinley was worked from Buxton shed, it could only have been a 2-6-4T (for at that time Buxton had no other passenger locomotives) which strikes me as hardly a super-power locomotive for an "Accelerated Timings" train! So I still have an open mind on the possibility of overnight out-stabled diesel power. But open mind it has to be until some photographic or other evidence emerges - we can ponder and pontificate for ever!

Incidentally, the removal date of the turntable at Chinley wouldn't be critical, because engines could be turned on the triangle. And tank engines wouldn't need turning at all . . .

John

 

[Magdalia]

If the 7 am from Chinley was worked from Buxton shed, it could only have been a 2-6-4T (for at that time Buxton had no other passenger locomotives)

That isn't necessarily the case. The loco coming from Buxton could be allocated to another depot. For example it could be a Trafford Park loco that had previously worked to Buxton from Manchester.

I still have an open mind on the possibility of overnight out-stabled diesel power.

This wasn't the sort of thing that happened when the diesels were very new. The loco and crew diagrams would still be operating "as if they were steam". Diesel workings would be on steam loco diagrams but needed a suitably trained driver: for ER diesels working the Hope Valley in 1961 that means Grimesthorpe, then wherever the Grimesthorpe drivers were transferred to when Grimesthorpe closed.

In each area modernisation scheme it was only possible to make a comprehensive revision of the loco and crew diagrams once the full diesel loco fleet had been delivered and the crews had been trained. For the Sheffield area stage 1 scheme that only happened when the EE Type 3s finally arrived in summer/autumn 1962.

 

[Taunton]

And tank engines wouldn't need turning at all . . .

Actually quite often they were. Although it may not seem necessary, crews did not particularly like extended running in reverse, so if the loco could be turned at both ends, they might choose to do so. If the coal was dusty then it would avoid this being blown from the bunker into the footplate, and the driver did not have the controls immediately at hand while looking out rearwards. Obviously if there was no such facility or time they had to accept it. The same was true of auto-train workings, some crews might choose to run round rather than run propelling.

The installation of the initial AWS-like system- on the locos on the Fenchurch Street to Southend line was chosen in part because the line, often plagued by fog and low visibility, had all trains in one direction run with tank locos in reverse, because there was no turning facility, and there had been a history of accidents with signals being missed.