How can the railway prove someone was fare-dodging?

[BRX]

mods note - split from here.

As a matter of curiosity, what would happen if you simply refused to discuss anything, beyond the fact that you are exiting a station with a ticket that is valid for a journey finishing at that station?

The onus must be on the RPIs to prove that you made a journey without a valid ticket, and they don't have any evidence of that do they? Even if it could be shown that you didn't go through the ticket gates at Farringdon, that doesn't prove anything. For example you would not necessarily have needed to enter the station from outside: you could have arrived at Farringdon on a paper ticket, which you discarded once your journey was complete.

 

[AlterEgo]

As a matter of curiosity... in this scenario, what would happen if you simply refused to discuss anything, beyond the fact that you are exiting a station with a ticket that is valid for a journey finishing at that station?

Good question, and of course my advice to anyone stopped and questioned under caution is to say nothing until and if you get legal representation. Certainly don’t tell them you’ve done it 20-30 times (!) even if that’s true. Let them collect the evidence. Don’t do it for them!

The onus must be on the RPIs to prove that you made a journey without a valid ticket, and they don't have any evidence of that do they? Even if it could be shown that you didn't go through the ticket gates at Farringdon, that doesn't prove anything. For example you would not necessarily have needed to enter the station from outside: you could have arrived at Farringdon on a paper ticket, which you discarded once your journey was complete.

It is on them to prove, yes. The evidence needed to secure it in this case is likely to be an admission, although they may also be able to draw on CCTV evidence which shows the OP boarding at an earlier station without any ticket to show for that portion of the journey.

 

[BRX]

It is on them to prove, yes. The evidence needed to secure it in this case is likely to be an admission, although they may also be able to draw on CCTV evidence which shows the OP boarding at an earlier station without any ticket to show for that portion of the journey.

But as that portion of the journey had been completed, by the time the passenger was stopped, they'd have no way of proving it was done without a ticket, because as far as I know there no obligation to keep a ticket once you've completed a journey.

 

[AlterEgo]

But as that portion of the journey had been completed, by the time the passenger was stopped, they'd have no way of proving it was done without a ticket, because as far as I know there no obligation to keep a ticket once you've completed a journey.

The passenger hadn’t completed their journey. They alighted at City Thameslink which is where their journey ended.

A court might be invited to consider how likely it is that someone with a Farringdon-City Thameslink travel history, purchased online, cannot substantiate their assertion they also had tickets on each occasion from their start station, someone “purchased elsewhere”.

 

[Haywain]

The passenger hadn’t completed their journey. They alighted at City Thameslink which is where their journey ended.

A court might be invited to consider how likely it is that someone with a Farringdon-City Thameslink travel history, purchased online, cannot substantiate their assertion they also had tickets on each occasion from their start station, someone “purchased elsewhere”.

And, one might reasonably assume, a home address some considerable distance from Farringdon. And no explanation offered of how they arrived at Farringdon.

 

[Krokodil]

Watch this series to see how TfL's fraud team investigate people with suspicious journey patterns:

My5

www.channel5.com

 

[SCDR_WMR]

And, one might reasonably assume, a home address some considerable distance from Farringdon. And no explanation offered of how they arrived at Farringdon.

Which is how an operation was done on WMT for a suspected fare avoidance case - suspect caught multiple times between Birmingham Moor St and Stratford-upon-Avon but gave address some 6 miles away. Set up a block at the nearest station to the address given and was found to be boarding there as suspected.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

mods note - split from here.

As a matter of curiosity, what would happen if you simply refused to discuss anything, beyond the fact that you are exiting a station with a ticket that is valid for a journey finishing at that station?

The onus must be on the RPIs to prove that you made a journey without a valid ticket, and they don't have any evidence of that do they? Even if it could be shown that you didn't go through the ticket gates at Farringdon, that doesn't prove anything. For example you would not necessarily have needed to enter the station from outside: you could have arrived at Farringdon on a paper ticket, which you discarded once your journey was complete.

Does the railway need to prove anything at this point? Surely the question is what do the railway need to take matters forward to the next stage - which will be to look further at the matter with an eye to prosecution/out of court settlement/walking away with no further action.

Since I'm not aware of any law that regulates the railway in 'looking further' then presumably the main driver will be cost-effectiveness: does the railway think there is or will be enough evidence for there to be a chance of making their case? To put it another way, do they have grounds to reasonably suspect fare dodging as opposed to grounds to know that there's fare dodging?

In this unregulated world, answering 'no comment' to everything is pretty suspicious: realistically someone with nothing to hide will want to get on with their journey from the station asap, and will recognise it's best to explain where they have come from and so that they have had a valid ticket.

And failing to give your name and address is an offence (byelaw 23: as long as the railway 'reasonably suspects' a breach of some other byelaw) so our hypothetical legal but uncooperative passenger can still be contacted by the railway to follow up on the railway's reasonable suspicions.