How could the Elizabeth line expand?

[Sprigibax]

Could the Elizabeth line take over more long distance services, potentially being absorbed into the national rail network?
My ideas are that it could take over:
The Greater Anglia regional services to Southend Victoria, Braintree and Colchester Town
The Romford to Upminster branch
The GWR services to Bedwyn and Didcot Parkway (possibly combining this with the Didcot - Oxford/Banbury service)
The Slough to Windsor & Eton Central branch
This would free up platform capacity at Liverpool Street and Paddington (potentially allowing some Chiltern services to be diverted to Paddington, freeing up capacity at Marylebone).

 

[CarrotPie]

Could the Elizabeth line take over more long distance services, potentially being absorbed into the national rail network?
My ideas are that it could take over:
The Greater Anglia regional services to Southend Victoria, Braintree and Colchester Town
The Romford to Upminster branch
The GWR services to Bedwyn and Didcot Parkway (possibly combining this with the Didcot - Oxford/Banbury service)
The Slough to Windsor & Eton Central branch
This would free up platform capacity at Liverpool Street and Paddington (potentially allowing some Chiltern services to be diverted to Paddington, freeing up capacity at Marylebone).

Have we not had this type of thread before?

 

[JonathanH]

This would free up platform capacity at Liverpool Street and Paddington

To what end? It would overload capacity in the core.

I would look at the track layouts before getting too excited about the ideas actually happening.

Could the Elizabeth line take over more long distance services, potentially being absorbed into the national rail network?

Essentially, no.

 

[The Planner]

This would free up platform capacity at Liverpool Street and Paddington (potentially allowing some Chiltern services to be diverted to Paddington, freeing up capacity at Marylebone).

How are you getting them to Paddington? There isn't any room on the reliefs.

 

[BrianW]

I hope that Springibox (joined this year; 20 messages- welcome) gets replies (on this thread that they have started- well done) from veteran members that help explain why his/her ideas may not work as well as might be hoped, rather than dismissing them.

 

[Backroom_boy]

Could the Elizabeth line take over more long distance services, potentially being absorbed into the national rail network?
My ideas are that it could take over:
The Greater Anglia regional services to Southend Victoria, Braintree and Colchester Town
The Romford to Upminster branch
The GWR services to Bedwyn and Didcot Parkway (possibly combining this with the Didcot - Oxford/Banbury service)
The Slough to Windsor & Eton Central branch
This would free up platform capacity at Liverpool Street and Paddington (potentially allowing some Chiltern services to be diverted to Paddington, freeing up capacity at Marylebone).

Most likely extensions at the moment seem to be from Heathrow T5 to Staines and from Abbey Wood towards Dartford and maybe all the way to Gravesend.

 

[JonathanH]

I hope that Springibox (joined this year; 20 messages- welcome) gets replies (on this thread that they have started- well done) from veteran members that help explain why his/her ideas may not work as well as might be hoped, rather than dismissing them.

There are previous threads that go into some of the issues the Elizabeth Line faces, in particular that is serves places in London where demand has expanded greatly and is said to have difficulty accommodating the high peak.

Running longer distance trains isn't compatible with the way the core operates and the demand which has built up, neither is the rolling stock particularly suitable.

The Upminster and Windsor branches are on the wrong side of the formation and the junctions are too close to the stations to build grade separation.

A very recent thread.

Elizabeth Line - future extensions?

With the apparent huge success of Crossrail/Elizabeth Line with ridership exceeding forecasts, is there any scope or potential for any future extensions or new routes? Or is the line at completely full capacity, or are there logistically reasons why this wouldn’t be possible such as a lack of...

www.railforums.co.uk

An earlier one

To early to talk about Elizabeth Line extensions?

There have been lots of suggestions for crossrail expansions from the basic Elizabeth line but they've all been kicked into touch as either too expensive and / or bad BCRs. What are worth reconsidering now? Could any of the underlying economics changed positively?

www.railforums.co.uk

What is quite interesting is that at one point there were official ideas around putting longer distance trains through Crossrail. It appears that the decision made to keep it about high capacity stopping services has been the right one.

Should CrossRail have been built as a interurban rail service?

Rather than a glorified tube line? I’m not sure if this has been discussed before so my apologies in advance if I’m raising an old subject. I feel that CrossRail was a missed opportunity in many ways, it should have been like Thameslink (linking Bedford to Brighton and Cambridge to Horsham) it...

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A very important point was made in this post from 2018, which I quote below in bold - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-longer-distance-eg-oxford-to-ipswich.159337/

Crossrail is primarily to cope with the growth of London’s population. It is basically a tube line that happens to use some existing main line infrastructure.

With that in mind, it is appropriate to keep it much as it is, subject to the aforementioned potential extensions to Staines and Dartford or Gravesend, but neither is likely to be easy to find funding for.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Could the Elizabeth line take over more long distance services, potentially being absorbed into the national rail network?
My ideas are that it could take over:
The Greater Anglia regional services to Southend Victoria, Braintree and Colchester Town
The Romford to Upminster branch
The GWR services to Bedwyn and Didcot Parkway (possibly combining this with the Didcot - Oxford/Banbury service)
The Slough to Windsor & Eton Central branch
This would free up platform capacity at Liverpool Street and Paddington (potentially allowing some Chiltern services to be diverted to Paddington, freeing up capacity at Marylebone).

I don't think people in Wiltshire, Oxfordshire and East Essex want to have TFL operating their public transport. Other suburban services in London have long been considered to join London Overground.

 

[Backroom_boy]

With that in mind, it is appropriate to keep it much as it is, subject to the aforementioned potential extensions to Staines and Dartford or Gravesend, but neither is likely to be easy to find funding for.

Only one I'd add to that is the line to Tring which has already been studied and rejected (and possibly is totally out now due to OOC work not making provision for it) but might in future have a point if circumstances change.

 

[JonathanH]

Only one I'd add to that is the line to Tring which has already been studied and rejected (and possibly is totally out now due to OOC work not making provision for it) but might in future have a point if circumstances change.

I don't really buy the relevance of Tring at all. What are the benefits? I guess it releases some passenger load from Euston, and might provide relief at Wembley and Harrow & Wealdstone, but once north of Watford is it necessary? Where would the grade separation be built to enable it and is there capacity on the WCML slows to run more trains over the stretch from Wembley to Tring given the competing freight use?

 

[Sprigibax]

I don't think people in Wiltshire, Oxfordshire and East Essex want to have TFL operating their public transport. Other suburban services in London have long been considered to join London Overground.

potentially being absorbed into the national rail network

 

[317 forever]

Only one I'd add to that is the line to Tring which has already been studied and rejected (and possibly is totally out now due to OOC work not making provision for it) but might in future have a point if circumstances change.

If anything, Tring might have been considered for an extension of London Overground from Watford Junction, even if now ruled out. I don't see how Tring could be added to Elizabeth Line though.

 

[JonathanH]

potentially being absorbed into the national rail network?

As you have requoted this in your response in message 11, are you able to explain how this would work? Are you envisaging more trains in the core, or fewer trains on the existing outer parts of the Elizabeth Line?

 

[swt_passenger]

If anything, Tring might have been considered for an extension of London Overground from Watford Junction, even if now ruled out. I don't see how Tring could be added to Elizabeth Line though.

Tring via the WCML definitely was considered seriously as the destination of a Crossrail branch. You have to go back to Network Rail’s London and Southeast RUS of 2011, and the idea fell out of favour later, but it was covered at the time. They expected it to take 8 tph, using a new alignment through the Old Oak Common area, presumably running on the north side of the Crossrail depot

 

[JonathanH]

Tring via the WCML definitely was considered seriously as the destination of a Crossrail branch. You have to go back to Network Rail’s London and Southeast RUS of 2011, and the idea fell out of favour later, but it was covered at the time. They expected it to take 8 tph, using a new alignment through the Old Oak Common area, presumably running on the north side of the Crossrail depot

Looking back at posts from 2014, it does seem odd that 8tph from Tring was envisaged, seemingly on the basis that HS2 construction would reduce capacity at Euston, and facilitating longer trains running.

Crossrail extension onto WCML

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-28680186 Proposals to extend Crossrail to Hertfordshire are being considered by the government, the transport secretary is expected to announce later. ... Under the plans, stations likely to get Crossrail services will include Tring, Hemel...

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A quote here on how it would have been done.

It will just be a loop from Old Oak Common to the Acton Wells line and an upgraded chord down to the Willesden Reliefs/diveunder and come out on the slows at Wembley. Dont expect any massive 75mph grandiose scheme to the WCML as you will be dissapointed.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I hope that Springibox (joined this year; 20 messages- welcome) gets replies (on this thread that they have started- well done) from veteran members that help explain why his/her ideas may not work as well as might be hoped, rather than dismissing them.

Yes, I thought that. Some regular culprits do love to haunt Speculative Discussion only to rain on the parade

I don't think people in Wiltshire, Oxfordshire and East Essex want to have TFL operating their public transport. Other suburban services in London have long been considered to join London Overground.

That's just a presumption though. I mean, Bedwyn and Kintbury have hardly been treated well by GWR of late.

 

[The Planner]

I don't think people in Wiltshire, Oxfordshire and East Essex want to have TFL operating their public transport. Other suburban services in London have long been considered to join London Overground.

Its the other way around, TfL wouldn't want it themselves. They didnt want to pay for the proposed extension to Tring, which would have knackered the slow lines on the WCML.

 

[YorkRailFan]

That's just a presumption though. I mean, Bedwyn and Kintbury have hardly been treated well by GWR of late.

What's to say TFL would? I'm sure they would prefer to have a BR style operator.

Could the Elizabeth line take over more long distance services, potentially being absorbed into the national rail network?

EL is already part of National Rail, that's why its contracted out to MTR for them to operate. It just operates under the TFL branding. Same as LO.

 

[David Goddard]

EL is already part of National Rail, that's why its contracted out to MTR for them to operate. It just operates under the TFL branding. Same as LO.

Spot on, a fact that too many people do not realise, or choose to ignore, just as TfL does. Should never have been allowed to have been as “TfLised” as it has been.

 

[London Trains]

Before any expansion, the first priority for the Elizabeth Line should be massively improving the service west of Paddington/OOC - there should be 8tph to Heathrow and 4tph to Reading all day at the bare minimum (peak extras would be 4tph to Maidenhead), with all stations served by all trains apart from Acton Main Line, West Ealing, Hanwell, Iver and Taplow.

 

[bramling]

Before any expansion, the first priority for the Elizabeth Line should be massively improving the service west of Paddington/OOC - there should be 8tph to Heathrow and 4tph to Reading all day at the bare minimum (peak extras would be 4tph to Maidenhead), with all stations served by all trains apart from Acton Main Line, West Ealing, Hanwell, Iver and Taplow.

Agree with this. The impression I get is that users on the west side are pretty unimpressed with things. I know a few people who travel to London from places like Maidenhead and Slough, and they all view the Elizabeth Line as an unreliable and slow joke, that they will only touch if the GWR service is unavailable. Must be worse for those who don’t have the choice.

I’m not sure there’s therefore much value in trying to expand these cross-London services. The Thameslink service from Cambridge seems semi popular, however they have the luxury of six other services to London every hour, so the through service there is one of a number of viable options, rather than something which they need to be able to rely on.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

. I know a few people who travel to London from places like Maidenhead and Slough, and they all view the Elizabeth Line as an unreliable and slow joke, that they will only touch if the GWR service is unavailable.

110 mph on a 387 along the Mains to and from Slough is a very much faster journey than the all stations 345.

 

[Starmill]

What's to say TFL would? I'm sure they would prefer to have a BR style operator.

Only the operator appointed through the TfL contract can get rights to run on the Crossrail Central Operating Section though.

 

[JonathanH]

110 mph on a 387 along the Mains to and from Slough is a very much faster journey than the all stations 345.

No option for a 387 journey in the peaks though from Slough.

 

[Recessio]

Ebbsfleet seems the most likely candidate for an extension, especially if the whole "Garden City" ever takes off, although there would be difficulties - running over the existing tracks would require AC overheard lines over existing DC third rail (difficult to do) and the lines are already pretty busy. Or it would require a new track (expensive, especially if tunnelled).

 

[swt_passenger]

Ebbsfleet seems the most likely candidate for an extension, especially if the whole "Garden City" ever takes off, although there would be difficulties - running over the existing tracks would require AC overheard lines over existing DC third rail (difficult to do) and the lines are already pretty busy. Or it would require a new track (expensive, especially if tunnelled).

There’s another option. Crossrail told me a few years ago, (in response to an emailed query), that a future extension onto the SE network would use stock modified for DC pickup.

 

[cle]

I could see a few peak extensions to Southend Victoria if frequency had to increase and Shenfield was busy / relieved by sending trains on.

in a similar way, I could see 2-3 to Didcot to give some interim stations direct services in the peaks, or more cross-Reading journeys. This isn't just about London journey times. Those feel incrementally easy. Newbury too, I suppose.

These services exist in Japan, where the 'crossrail' type services through Tokyo run much further out, with fast options also existing for the likes of Atami, Utsonomiya etc at the extremities (with peak specials) - but they are still well used.

And we don't have the through-running / slow but one seat mentality on a regional level just yet, but Crossrail is definitely making the culture shift already.

I think Southend Victoria would be great for an additional 2tph, to make it a metro frequency out there (which is deserved) and add the option - but the fasts remain faster.

Still, a single ride to the West End, OOC/HS2 and Heathrow might be compelling to some, even if 15 mins slower. Many choose these types of differentials. Let's let them choose.

 

[Starmill]

Ebbsfleet seems the most likely candidate for an extension, especially if the whole "Garden City" ever takes off, although there would be difficulties - running over the existing tracks would require AC overheard lines over existing DC third rail (difficult to do) and the lines are already pretty busy. Or it would require a new track (expensive, especially if tunnelled).

Progress on construction of new housing in the Ebbsfleet International station catchment has sadly been glacial, which is so disappointing given it's very well-connected, and vast tracts of land are either already earmarked for development, unused ex-industrial wasteland, or car parking. Future development also needs to come up with something more appealing in terms of dedicated walkways and cycleways into the station, but I digress.

 

[JonathanH]

Still, a single ride to the West End, OOC/HS2 and Heathrow might be compelling to some, even if 15 mins slower. Many choose these types of differentials. Let's let them choose.

Not if it comes with trains carrying fresh air from Shenfield to Southend. It would be interesting to know what volume of passengers travel direct from Shenfield on the Elizabeth Line into London rather than taking considerably faster trains run by Greater Anglia.

In other considerations, what is the Elizabeth Line going to do with ten extra 345s? Can the core service be made more intensive? Is it possible to extend some Paddington terminators to Hayes & Harlington or West Drayton in the high peak?

 

[cle]

That whole line should be a metro service (Shenfield-Southend) and augmenting by EL extensions is the simplest way if there are no more paths on the mainline.

It also enables local journeys (6tph like the Overground - people rarely go end to end, this is no different) - or vague overlaps to bigger nodes (eg Billericay to Romford/Ilford) - and of course a metro service to Shenfield to take outer services towards Chelmsford.

It’s not just about the inbound/outbound commuter mentality and London journey time, it’s something of an agglomeration. And an EL seat from Reading to Shenfield is likely sat on 4-5 times.