tom1649
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Agreed. The Leyland Lynx was the mainstay of their fleet for many years.
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Hulley's of Baslow
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Open top 80
Member
Did the open top bus run on the last weekend of operation?
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There was no sign of it at Castleton on the Saturday, but I don't know about the Sunday.
I was stuck at Castleton with no buses out between 15:00 and 16:50, after the Breezer didn't show up and the service to Sheffield also did a no-show. Cut and run back to Derby via the 173 to Bakewell instead.
Unusual for the 272 not to show, from experience that's usually quite a reliable route.
The 173 is a decent route though with an excellent view of the Monsal Head viaduct.
Killingworth
Established Member
Alemaster's post 617 describes what happens when there are events in the Peak District. Last weeked the big one was Chatsworth Country Fair with massive traffic jams but there will have been others. No bus operator or timetable can totally cope with events like them.
Last Saturday afternoon/evening was an absolute shambles on the 272 with First's services running very late and Hulleys missing trips. The only event was the football at Bramall Lane.
1350 from Sheffield to Castleton (Hulleys) ran fine, but didn't return to Sheffield
1450 from Sheffield to Castleton (First) had a late start due to football traffic then the bus had issues, having to regularly pause for the engine to cool down and appeared to be in limp mode given it was unable to get any kind of speed up. It arrived in Castleton an hour late then spent half an hour blocking the bus station broken down before forming its Sheffield bound service 90 minutes late.
1550 from Sheffield to Castleton (Hulleys) appeared in Castleton about 30 minutes late then left out of service as First's late running bus had picked up all the passengers.
1650 from Sheffield to Castleton (First) was a vehicle pulled off route 82 and left Sheffield an hour late.
1805 from Sheffield to Castleton (Hulleys) doesn't appear to have operated
1850 from Sheffield to Castleton (First) left Sheffield 64 minutes late and terminated short at Bamford with the return trip starting Bamford
2120 from Sheffield to Castleton (First) arrived in Castleton 10 minutes late with the return trip that left Castleton 8 minutes late at 2228 being the first bus out of Castleton since 1849.
The new timetable that started this week has longer running times so should cut down on the late running, however it won't deal with First's bus breakdowns or Hulleys driver shortages!
1350 from Sheffield to Castleton (Hulleys) ran fine, but didn't return to Sheffield
1450 from Sheffield to Castleton (First) had a late start due to football traffic then the bus had issues, having to regularly pause for the engine to cool down and appeared to be in limp mode given it was unable to get any kind of speed up. It arrived in Castleton an hour late then spent half an hour blocking the bus station broken down before forming its Sheffield bound service 90 minutes late.
1550 from Sheffield to Castleton (Hulleys) appeared in Castleton about 30 minutes late then left out of service as First's late running bus had picked up all the passengers.
1650 from Sheffield to Castleton (First) was a vehicle pulled off route 82 and left Sheffield an hour late.
1805 from Sheffield to Castleton (Hulleys) doesn't appear to have operated
1850 from Sheffield to Castleton (First) left Sheffield 64 minutes late and terminated short at Bamford with the return trip starting Bamford
2120 from Sheffield to Castleton (First) arrived in Castleton 10 minutes late with the return trip that left Castleton 8 minutes late at 2228 being the first bus out of Castleton since 1849.
The new timetable that started this week has longer running times so should cut down on the late running, however it won't deal with First's bus breakdowns or Hulleys driver shortages!
No. Indeed it didn't run the week before either - suspension failure that either wasn't viable or possible to repair in time.
Frustratingly, despite knowing the bus would need at least a few days off the road there was no notice posted on Facebook to let people know. It was known by the middle of the week that it wouldn't run on the final weekend, but again no notice.
On viewing the South Yorkshire Transport Forum it appears that Hulleys have gained the 80 from October to run between Chesterfield & Crystal Peaks via Staveley & Killamarsh, a route currently run through to Sheffield by Stagecoach.
Interesting. Stagecoach obviously haven't wanted to run this for a while they way they've cut and merged it with various other services. The extension to Sheffield didn't make much sense to Stagecoach as pax could transfer to other Stagecoach services so ticketing was less of an issue. For Hulleys it means only pass holders are likely to make the through trip.
I wonder if they'll alter the route to interwork with anything else - the 48 and 55 being the obvious two. Main question though is what they'll drop to give capacity. Will surely be too tight if they don't.
Expanding my thoughts on this. The 80 even to Crystal Peaks would need 3 vehicles to run if kept hourly. As Hulleys are almost at their limit for discs something will have to give, but I wonder if there are options to join services up.
The 55 already runs to the hospital. From there to Crystal Peaks is just over an hour each way. If they can trim a few minutes off, then an hourly Alfreton to Crystal Peaks service is possible with only two more buses. Would be a very long run though, nearly 2h30 each way with little recovery time.
The 84 sits around for 24 minutes each hour, it would be tight but it could be extended to Hady to cover that part of the 80 route without needing an extra bus. The current cycle lane fiasco will make that timing difficult to maintain for the next 6 months however.
Either way, by my calculations at least one service is going to have to go if this does come off, maybe 2. Could this be the reason one of the Carsington Connection buses was painted back in to fleet livery?
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Stagecoach have tried all sorts with Killamarsh, as have many other operators before them, none of them have attracted huge numbers. There are a lot of chimney pots there but buses struggle, presumably as destinations of travel is so varied - Chesterfield, Sheffield, Crystal Peaks, Rotherham..
The evening and early morning 80a (which remains routed via Manor Top, Mosborough and Halfway tram terminus at the Sheffield end) is run under contract to Derbyshire County Council with all the later evening services doing Chesterfield to Halfway tram terminus. Presumably October 2023 is a new tendering exercise for many of the Chesterfield area services.
Do we know for sure about the 80? Has Hulleys won the evening tender? Are they also taking over the commercial daytime journeys? Presumably they've lost some other contracts too so it will be the usual merry go round of resources.
If Hulleys is doing Chesterfield-Crystal Peaks I wonder if there will be a separate Killamarsh-Sheffield service (possibly an existing service extended into Killamarsh?) or whether passengers will be expected to connect at Crystal Peaks (where there is the tram along with buses 7, 30 and 120).
All I've seen is the post on the SY Transport Forum, but that says 80 and 80a to Hulleys.
However, the latest PSV notices has a bit of a shocker - 257 cancelled from the end of October. That's only just got BSIP funding for extra evening journeys, but would explain where the freed up resources to run the 80 come from. I can only imagine there has been agreement for some other operator to take it on as I can't see it being dropped completely. Not sure what the implications are for the Sunday run which has just been varied to cover for the 61.
You have touched on a big problem with services away from built up areas and main routes - connectivity and price. While Hulleys are putting more attention in to services like the 84 and 55 than Stagecoach did, the fact connections to anywhere off those routes have suddenly shot up in price can't have helped ridership. What would once have been covered by a Stagecoach dayrider now needs two tickets, or the even more expensive Wayfarer. Going to be similar issues when the Supertram is taken off Stagecoach as currently it is included with most of their passes.
Having to change is bad enough, if you have to pay as much again it just makes it unviable for many as an option. It's a shame the £2 ticket wasn't per journey rather than per bus as that would have helped a lot.
I think we need to hold judgement until we've seen the bigger picture. Some of the changes to registrations may be simply tidying up the admin whilst with the new round of tenders there may well be changes of operators on a number of routes which do not necessarily mean they are being withdrawn. The service in some areas may be getting reorganised too, given nothing has been announced publicly yet we don't really know.
markymark2000
On Moderation
This is Hulleys, they just dont care. I don't know how they have any passengers left given their endless changes to routes and times.
Massively change their network every time they win a contract so that they can resource it.
-note. While it may not be the case in this instance, it has been the case all other times that Hulleys have won a route. Happened both with the 84 and 55 wins.
M803UYA
Member
Thing is, it comes across that they can't resource it in the first place - so why go for new contracts you know you cannot operate? At some point the business will come crashing down around them with the levels of constant change and high turnover of fleet.
RustySpoons
Member
- Joined
- 5 Apr 2019
- Messages
- 778
I first started to pay attention to Hulleys around the time they introduced the X57. I'm not from their operating area but looked into their operation and they seemed very decent. Then they expanded to Manchester Airport, struck up a deal with the Runway Viewing Park and I really did think they were an impressive outfit. Smart vehicles, decent drivers and actually innovating and trying to things.
Then they tried to interwork/extend the X57 to Macclesfield and since then it all seems to be falling apart. New services introduced and quickly and quietly dropped, constant (and seemingly needless) constant fleet replacements, as quoted above constant big network changes.
markymark2000
On Moderation
I was kind of similar. However as soon as the X57 came about, it had far too many changes. I think it was changing roughly fortnightly and still it wasn't running to time and no one ever knew what the situation was for Gorton, was pick up/drop off allowed?
Diversion to Hyde, extensions to the Airport, extension to the viewing park. Interworking at the Sheffield end killed reliability. Constant timetable changes.
The X1 was the straw that broke the camels back though. The problems started with the X57 though where it has since been deemed acceptable to change timetables constantly despite the fact it's well documented that passengers don't want timetable changes and it drives them away from buses (literally). That's on top of driver shortages but they keep taking on more and more routes. It's just greed. Taking on more and more but no clue how the heck they are going to resource it.
Section 3.5 – Cancellations of Existing Services
PC0003407/45 HENRY HULLEY & SONS LTD, DERWENT GARAGE, CALVER ROAD,
BASLOW, BAKEWELL, DE45 1RP
Operating between Bakewell and Sheffield given service number 275 / 277 / 276 /
257 effective from 29 October 2023.
PC0003407/45 HENRY HULLEY & SONS LTD, DERWENT GARAGE, CALVER ROAD,
BASLOW, BAKEWELL, DE45 1RP
Operating between Bakewell and Sheffield given service number 275 / 277 / 276 /
257 effective from 29 October 2023.
dodecahedron67
Member
257 and the 61 are being permanently merged is what I’ve heard so a new registration should be coming
The 80/80a will be linking up with the Bakewell - Chesterfield service to create a Crystal Peaks - Bakewell via Chesvegas route
The 80/80a will be linking up with the Bakewell - Chesterfield service to create a Crystal Peaks - Bakewell via Chesvegas route
M803UYA
Member
Eventually, the traffic commissioner will intervene thanks to the 'optional view' they have on running their timetables. It'll be a fine as it's a first strike but it's evident there's cash flow issues with the business already (hence the changing of routes and the shipping out of fleet). Not running Breezer properly will save them the fuel consumption - but lots of commercial routes constantly changing points to cash flow. It takes a lot of time for a new bus route to become viable - years - and that length of time isn't something Hulleys have to build a sustainable long term business.
If they focused on what they had and ran it well (like the former owners did) they'll be in business for many years to come. Once you have solid foundations you can then look to expansion. It might well be that there's a natural limit to the size of operation and in what it can do reliably - the former owners were very clear on what they did, and didn't do.
The almost scattergun approach to expansion will be what kills the business in the end. If you can't allow for time for a new service to mature properly then where do you go? Something like the Breezer may have needed a second open top vehicle available to ensure it ran properly, or you limit the days of operation so that it's within the capabilities of a single vehicle. Even the final version of the timetable might not have been sustainable for a single vehicle operation. It's assumed the open topper will be available 7 days a week for 6 week period. It's a 20 year old bus. It might want some mechanical attention?
Maybe the profits on the newly awarded contracts are more financially worthwile than some of their existing routes/contracts, hence the changes.
M803UYA
Member
Possibly?
What's the tendering situation like in their operating area? Whilst it doesn't excuse slapdash operation, are the local authorities trying to persuade any operator who thinks they can at all acceptable price to take it to avoid having routes cancelled?
I understand this is the case in some areas - Surrey's recent round of tendering only saw one bid for some routes, and whilst TfL-land has its own demands, the new 84B was a persuasive bid - and hands are tied all over the place. Are Derbyshire/South Yorkshire struggling for bidders? Or are Hulleys continually chancing their hand and finding it gets unexpectedly bitten?
I understand this is the case in some areas - Surrey's recent round of tendering only saw one bid for some routes, and whilst TfL-land has its own demands, the new 84B was a persuasive bid - and hands are tied all over the place. Are Derbyshire/South Yorkshire struggling for bidders? Or are Hulleys continually chancing their hand and finding it gets unexpectedly bitten?
A lot of companies who used to bid for contracts just don’t anymore, Littles in Ilkeston have massively curtailed the bus side & are now focusing on PH & school contracts, TM can’t physically take on anymore work & if they do it’ll be suicide for the fact they’ve got a very obvious driver shortage plus I don’t think they can afford the extra £50 a day charges for entering Sheffield, high peak seem to be content with what they have & the same goes for Notts+Derby & due to Sheffields ridiculous ULEZ new companies won’t bother with contracts over that side, as for hulleys, they’ve got a shortage of buses & drivers but seem to be getting greedy, or are they just trying to rapidly improve the cash flow before the inevitable happens ♂️
I wonder how long that will last? They tried that with the 55 / X70 but it didn't last long. One problem is if you need to change either service it knocks on to both.
I still wonder what is being cut to give the capacity for this. It's going to need at least 5 buses for an hourly run and there won't be much recovery time. At best I can see they have one spare disc with their current registrations, and that's probably needed to cover school variations of services. Even if they cut the 110 and 111 (possibly less viable since Derbyshire County Council (DCC) paid for the X17 extension to Wirksworth) that will doesn't give enough capacity I don't think?
What they need is a second depot in the Chesterfield area. Would save a fair bit of dead mileage from Baslow, would probably be more popular with a lot of drivers, and would allow them to move in to these services Stagecoach are no longer that interested in and support them properly.
As for the 80 / 170, what I'd actually quite like to see is a 'fast' bus on this route, with others serving the estates to feed in to it. Hady and Brimington Common to the Easy and Wadshelf, Wigley and Old Brampton to the West could be served by variations of the 84 for example.
While I don't have direct knowledge, anecdotes I've picked up suggests there is negotiation with DCC over who takes what. However, the main issue is lack of operators serving the area. Other than Hulleys, only Stagecoach have a depot in the area and they seem to have limited interest in serving the more rural routes. TM, Trent or High Peak would have a lot of dead mileage to serve most of the routes DCC tender. Littles, who another poster mentioned, aren't that local either.
I think Hulleys do genuinely want to provide as many services as they can to serve the area, but they are hamstrung with capacity and maybe a degree of over ambition and lack of patience. I'm sure if they could add 50% more discs they'd easily find routes to run, but the size of their depot doesn't allow that. The constant juggling to get as much out of limited resources isn't a great look, but on the other hand, if they didn't do that, you'd likely have no provision in some areas. In some ways that's why I take a slightly different view to many over the Breezer cancellations - I'd rather they deployed drivers and vehicles on local services than on a tourist service, especially as we had local services cut by Stagecoach so they could run their own tourist bus.
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M803UYA
Member
It's obvious that Hulleys want to expand their operation from what they've bought, but it neither has the capacity (buses, depot space, drivers) or finances to achieve it. As you suggest, a second satellite site in Chesterfield would help in this respect. That would then allow the Baslow operations to continue as they've always done and provide facilities to keep a larger fleet maintained. The limiting factors then would be drivers and the finances to sustain the period in which routes become established.
I can see why they've pulled Breezer journeys to reuse the drivers on local services, but why bother registering the route in the first place if there's no plan to operate the route in the long term? It takes a long time to make a route viable, and it's this length of time Hulleys appear not to have at their disposal. If they can't commit to the length of time it takes, they shouldn't bother at all as all they'll achieve is their own demise when the capital runs out and the bank doesn't let them continue having an overdraft. As the last filed accounts reveal a loss on the Profit & Loss account, it's a few thousand a week they're losing. Eventually that ends.
There is room for Hulleys in the market doing what they've always done. It's possible to expand the operation as well in a steady and measured way using that existing work as a springboard. Instead there is continual change, stopping and starting of routes, high turnover of fleet and frequent cancellations of services, presumably because drivers don't want to work in a strained operation.
From Hulleys Facebook page:
Changes to services effective 29 October 2023:
48/49 - these will be taken over by another Operator
55 - between Chesterfield Town Centre and the Royal Hospital buses will operate via Spital and Hady, instead of Chesterfield Rail Station
63 - the 1445 Chesterfield to Matlock will depart 1430 and run 15 minutes earlier throughout
80/80a/X80 - partially replacing Stagecoach Yorkshire services 80/80a and our service 84, these will run between Holymoorside and Crystal Peaks via Chesterfield Town Centre, direct to the Royal Hospital then via Brimington Common, Staveley, Nether Handley, Eckington, Renishaw, Spinkhill, High Moor and Killamarsh then direct via Moss Way to Crystal Peaks, giving much faster journeys between Killamarsh and Chesterfield/Crystal Peaks, and reinstating links between Eckington and Staveley/Killamarsh, and Holymoorside to the Royal Hospital. Evening and Sunday journeys will run as 80a via Woodthorpe and Mastin Moor instead of Eckington and will extend to and from Bakewell (the evening service between Bakewell and Matlock now provided by trentbarton Service 6.1); X80 will provide an additional peak hour journey between Killamarsh, Eckington and Chesterfield running non-stop from Staveley via Tapton; timings between Chesterfield and Holymoorside are only slightly changed - combined with Service 170 buses will run approximately every 30 minutes down the full length of Chatsworth Road, also giving a better connection for Holymoorside residents wanting to travel to Bakewell
Mod note: please remember to include the link to your source, and ensure that any quoted text is placed within quote tags
Changes to services effective 29 October 2023:
48/49 - these will be taken over by another Operator
55 - between Chesterfield Town Centre and the Royal Hospital buses will operate via Spital and Hady, instead of Chesterfield Rail Station
63 - the 1445 Chesterfield to Matlock will depart 1430 and run 15 minutes earlier throughout
80/80a/X80 - partially replacing Stagecoach Yorkshire services 80/80a and our service 84, these will run between Holymoorside and Crystal Peaks via Chesterfield Town Centre, direct to the Royal Hospital then via Brimington Common, Staveley, Nether Handley, Eckington, Renishaw, Spinkhill, High Moor and Killamarsh then direct via Moss Way to Crystal Peaks, giving much faster journeys between Killamarsh and Chesterfield/Crystal Peaks, and reinstating links between Eckington and Staveley/Killamarsh, and Holymoorside to the Royal Hospital. Evening and Sunday journeys will run as 80a via Woodthorpe and Mastin Moor instead of Eckington and will extend to and from Bakewell (the evening service between Bakewell and Matlock now provided by trentbarton Service 6.1); X80 will provide an additional peak hour journey between Killamarsh, Eckington and Chesterfield running non-stop from Staveley via Tapton; timings between Chesterfield and Holymoorside are only slightly changed - combined with Service 170 buses will run approximately every 30 minutes down the full length of Chatsworth Road, also giving a better connection for Holymoorside residents wanting to travel to Bakewell
Mod note: please remember to include the link to your source, and ensure that any quoted text is placed within quote tags
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markymark2000
On Moderation
How do people in Holymoorside know what bus to catch? Their route have been changed 3 times now. Was the 84, then went into the 170, then back to the 84, now part of the 80. Times have changed many time as well in that time.
Llandudno
Established Member
- Joined
- 25 Dec 2014
- Messages
- 2,258
Some of the bus stop plates in Holymoorside still show 25 as the only bus picking up at that stop.
This Stagecoach route number has not operated to Holymoorside for at least 15 years!
Derbyshire does seem to be bad for that, there are stops in the Dronfield area still branded up for Sheffield Mainline from before it became First South Yorkshire (who last operated in Dronfield when they had Little Nipper branded minibuses!)