Is someone in big trouble?

[MP33]

Tonight someone who has got the taste for 1st class travel at Standard prices was nabbed by the inspectors. They were spotted by the same inspector a couple of weeks ago. That time they announced they wanted the toilet and disappeared further up the train never to be seen again.

The inspector took their ticket and asked then to confirm if it was theirs. The inspector then said to his mate we will deal with them outside. I did not hear anything of the conversation.

Will this mean that they will feel the full force of the law. According to the posters that Greater Anglia put up with figures, the Magistrates Courts must have revolving doors.

 

[Flamingo]

With luck they are...

 

[cjmillsnun]

With luck they are...

I'll bring the popcorn if it goes to court

 

[MP33]

I'll bring the popcorn if it goes to court

When I first joined the Civil Service, I had a job involved with arranging hearings. The officers more senior than myself who had to attend Magistrates Courts in London to observe the subject of hearings. Said that there were an army of old ladies who used to sit in the public gallery all day with their knitting.

 

[timbo58]

'Back in the day' we had 'turn cards' with the head codes of the trains stops & timing and we added in restrictions etc.

When anyone was noted on the turn card as 'bloke sits in coach B, moves to coach D after Oxford etc etc only has ticket to Didcot' and you caught them at it you knew how to deal with it.

Regular ticketing staff aren't stupid and will share fare dodgers methods and descriptions with other staff, no one likes a **** taker.

So -to the question 'are they in big trouble?' -depends on whether the person questioning them at any point was an RPI or an RPI can nab them at some point and get an interview under caution really.

Then it depends on how keen this Toc is to prosecute (R V Makin 1946 the test case IIRC? although the legislation has probably been in effect since 1st class existed).

I would argue with enough evidence that this practice has been used by this passenger on repeated occasions that this passenger should be treated as a repeat offender also.

 

[tony6499]

'Back in the day' we had 'turn cards' with the head codes of the trains stops & timing and we added in restrictions etc.

When anyone was noted on the turn card as 'bloke sits in coach B, moves to coach D after Oxford etc etc only has ticket to Didcot' and you caught them at it you knew how to deal with it.

Regular ticketing staff aren't stupid and will share fare dodgers methods and descriptions with other staff, no one likes a **** taker.

So -to the question 'are they in big trouble?' -depends on whether the person questioning them at any point was an RPI or an RPI can nab them at some point and get an interview under caution really.

Then it depends on how keen this Toc is to prosecute (R V Makin 1946 the test case IIRC? although the legislation has probably been in effect since 1st class existed).

I would argue with enough evidence that this practice has been used by this passenger on repeated occasions that this passenger should be treated as a repeat offender also.

We did on the coast too, all the regular non payers , troublemakers, asboers etc on that duty had the details written down so you knew who to look out for

 

[strowger]

Deleted

 

[Flamingo]

Can I take it that this thread refers to a person known to, and disliked by, a number of forum regulars?

I don't know the individual, but I know the type, I deal with them daily. I do dislike them. Mostly they get away with it.

 

[timbo58]

Concur with Flamingo although it's a long time since I handed back my shiny badge.

I lost count of the number of times I heard 'oh is this 1st class' -so much so I would say 'sotte voce' yes, I can see how you missed the subtle labelling such as '1st class' -here and here and here and here and here and on the vestibule ends and on the anti macassars, oh and the fact the blooming seats are leather, all have tables and the fact a free trolley service is operating!

One day a youngish lady (god bless her) was walking through and said loudly (upon hearing my speech) 'I can't even read and even I can tell it's 1st class!' -it made my day!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

"I didn't realise it was First Class"

"I am only going one stop"

"Does it really matter, no one else is sitting here, if somebody wants the seat I'll move"

"The train is full, there are no other seats" - When it isn't and there are plenty of seats in other carriages

"I didn't think trains had First Class anymore"

"I am pregnant / have a bad back / sore foot / swollen knee / headache / bruised ankle / [insert any other minor ailment here] and I was told that it would be ok to sit here"

 

[Fare-Cop]

Many years ago on route into Kings Cross, I and another inspector enter First Class,

Me, "Good morning, may we see all tickets please"

Gent on the left shows a Standard Class Travelcard

Me, "Do you have another ticket Sir?"

He, "No, what's wrong with that?"

Me, "This is a Standard Class ticket and you are travelling in First Class Sir, you'll have a little more to pay"

He, "I'll move then"

Me, "I'm sorry sir, it's a bit late I'm afraid, we're past Finsbury Park and the next stop is Kings Cross"

He, "Well I didn't know it was First Class, how am I supposed to know"

Me, "The signs on the windows, the doors and even on the antimacassars on all the seats sir, they're all pretty clear I think"

He, "I don't need you to make a fool out of me sonny"

Me, "I agree sir"

Ripple of laughter from others in the carriage and full First Class fare collected.

Life was a bit of fun at times

 

[DaleCooper]

The other side of the story:

A few years ago I boarded an East Coast train for Kings Cross this was the first time I'd been on a train for many years and I honestly didn't see any marking indicating the coach I boarded was first class, I'm sure there was nothing on the window where I expected to see it and I didn't notice anything on the door ar anywhere else. Anyway I sat down then after a while I saw the anti-macassar and realised my mistake, as it happened the ticket inspector had just arrived so I told him and said "I suppose I'd better move" but for some reason he said I could stay. I was actually more worried about the reaction of the couple sitting opposite but they were quite happy and said that I didn't look like a troublemaker.

 

[Flamingo]

The other side of the story:

A few years ago I boarded an East Coast train for Kings Cross this was the first time I'd been on a train for many years and I honestly didn't see any marking indicating the coach I boarded was first class, I'm sure there was nothing on the window where I expected to see it and I didn't notice anything on the door ar anywhere else. Anyway I sat down then after a while I saw the anti-macassar and realised my mistake, as it happened the ticket inspector had just arrived so I told him and said "I suppose I'd better move" but for some reason he said I could stay. I was actually more worried about the reaction of the couple sitting opposite but they were quite happy and said that I didn't look like a troublemaker.

The season-ticket is the usual give-away of the "move when challenged" brigade...

 

[TheEdge]

The other side of the story:

A few years ago I boarded an East Coast train for Kings Cross this was the first time I'd been on a train for many years and I honestly didn't see any marking indicating the coach I boarded was first class, I'm sure there was nothing on the window where I expected to see it and I didn't notice anything on the door ar anywhere else. Anyway I sat down then after a while I saw the anti-macassar and realised my mistake, as it happened the ticket inspector had just arrived so I told him and said "I suppose I'd better move" but for some reason he said I could stay. I was actually more worried about the reaction of the couple sitting opposite but they were quite happy and said that I didn't look like a troublemaker.

Hahahaha, its funny because you think that has ever gone through the mind of someone who has "accidentally" sat in 1st.

 

[Mag_seven]

At what point, i.e. how far into the journey, is vacating to go to standard no longer an option and a 1st class excess due?

 

[Flamingo]

At what point, i.e. how far into the journey, is vacating to go to standard no longer an option and a 1st class excess due?

When they fail the attitude test...

Helping themselves to comp's off the trolley usually comes a close second.

 

[DaleCooper]

When they fail the attitude test...

Helping themselves to comp's off the trolley usually comes a close second.

I must have passed the attitude test with honours.

 

[Flamingo]

I must have passed the attitude test with honours.

Some do .

(I have been known to tell passengers to stay there myself, but don't tell anybody, I have a reputation to keep up! )

 

[MP33]

I do not know who the person is. I believe that I have seen the person hinted at, they appeared to be a right big head.

Tonight there were a few cancellations and a lady got on with a ticket marked 1R. Is this a 1st class travelcard not valid in the evening peak and she got away with being caught for a penalty fare.

 

[12CSVT]

At what point, i.e. how far into the journey, is vacating to go to standard no longer an option and a 1st class excess due?

The only accepable reason to be in first class is if they are walking through the train and there is a first class compartment mid way through the train.

I'd say they are liable to the excess once they decide to try out one of the first class seats, irrespective of whether or not the train has actually moved.

 

[Tom B]

The only accepable reason to be in first class is if they are walking through the train and there is a first class compartment mid way through the train.

I'd say they are liable to the excess once they decide to try out one of the first class seats, irrespective of whether or not the train has actually moved.

Some time ago I caught a FCC train, with which I am not familiar, between Kings Cross and Finsbury Park. Ran along the platform to the train and jumped in at the last minute, saw an empty seat and sat in it. About 30 seconds later, looking around, I realised that I'd got into a first class compartment, so I stood up and moved. Should I have been charged?

 

[Qwerty133]

I do not know who the person is. I believe that I have seen the person hinted at, they appeared to be a right big head.

Tonight there were a few cancellations and a lady got on with a ticket marked 1R. Is this a 1st class travelcard not valid in the evening peak and she got away with being caught for a penalty fare.

Didn't think penalty fares could be issued if a ticket only isn't valid due to the time of day?

 

[sarahj]

Some time ago I caught a FCC train, with which I am not familiar, between Kings Cross and Finsbury Park. Ran along the platform to the train and jumped in at the last minute, saw an empty seat and sat in it. About 30 seconds later, looking around, I realised that I'd got into a first class compartment, so I stood up and moved. Should I have been charged?

I as a guard would let off on that one. Its the ones who sit there and you go:
'You have a standard class ticket and your in first class'
and they go:
'Oh, i did not know', as they sit on a seat marked first class, with a big 1 on the window and surrounded by signs saying, first class and dont sit here with a standard ticket.

or ' there were no other seats'

And how did they know, sitting in coach 12 (at the back) of a 12 coach train.

Ive got a 'sprained ankle' or any other ailment. Meanwhile lots of other seats, all with the same seats and pitch.

Getting in, sitting down, then going, oooppps, and moving. OK
Getting in, sitting down and not giving a s*#t. Not ok

 

[jon0844]

Getting on, saying to mate(s) 'let's sit in first' with plain clothed RPIs is my favourite. I say that because I've been lucky to see that happen - more than once (when the TOC did a lot of these over one summer). It's one of those situations where you just hoped someone would spring out, and then it does!

Even funnier is when people bundle into first class and sit down without even noticing a uniformed RPI sitting down in first class. Seen that too. No chance of talking their way out of it either, thanks to their big mouths as they enter.

For some reason there are a lot of people who don't just decide to go into first, but seem to want half the train to know about it*. I guess they wish to look 'hard' because hardness is obviously linked to a lack of respect for authority. Like people in the SAS. Oh, wait, nothing like that!

* Then there are those who do have tickets but seemingly want everyone else to think they haven't. Again, trying to look and act hard without having to worry about the consequences of being caught. Also including those who dress down and want to have someone in a suit say something before they can get all smug and show they did have a first class ticket!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The season-ticket is the usual give-away of the "move when challenged" brigade...

And of course is the reason you can (if I recall rightly) no longer excess to First Class on board with a season in PF areas. The dishonest ones spoiling it for everyone there, as there have been occasions when, if that had been an option, I'd have done it, either because Standard was too busy or because when I got to the train I just felt like a more comfortable seat on that occasion.

 

[yorkie]

I do not know who the person is. I believe that I have seen the person hinted at, they appeared to be a right big head.

Tonight there were a few cancellations and a lady got on with a ticket marked 1R. Is this a 1st class travelcard not valid in the evening peak and she got away with being caught for a penalty fare.

I'm not sure what the "1R" refers to in the context in which you saw it, but 1st class returns (not Travelcards) may be abbreviated with "1R" e.g. "Anytime 1R" or "Off Peak 1R".

Travelcards are, within the Travelcard area, valid on any train from 0930 onwards and no Train Company can restrict them in the evening peak. Of course out-boundary Travelcards, when used beyond the Travelcard area, may be restricted and some Train Companies do this.

However the Penalty Fare Rules state "An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare to a person whose ticket is not valid only because of a published restriction" and so it would not be correct for a Penalty Fare to be issued if a time restricted ticket is used at an invalid time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And of course is the reason you can (if I recall rightly) no longer excess to First Class on board with a season in PF areas...

That's correct. A PF may be charged as if no ticket held, but FCC used to go straight to threatening prosecution according to several reports on here.

VTEC (who do not operate a Penalty Fare scheme) will charge the difference between Std & 1st fares to a Season ticket holder if they approach the Guard before departure. If they wait for the Guard to find them then a new ticket is charged as if no ticket held.

 

[David57]

I did the opposite.

I got on a Grand Central train, sat in 2nd class, even though I had a 1st ticket!

2nd class just looked like 1st!

 

[dviner]

Getting on, saying to mate(s) 'let's sit in first' with plain clothed RPIs is my favourite. I say that because I've been lucky to see that happen - more than once (when the TOC did a lot of these over one summer). It's one of those situations where you just hoped someone would spring out, and then it does!

My favourite was after managing to get into the foyer a MAI-PAD Turbo and watching an RPI squeeze through the standees and into the 1st class compartment. Did get a bit tighter though when people started to get turfed out...

 

[DeeGee]

There was a time when all the seats on the 185s through Grimsby Town had antimacassars, and all of them said "First"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

a MAI-PAD Turbo

I was just trying to work out why there'd be so many passengers between Maidstone West and Paddock Wood.

Then I realised...

 

[LexyBoy]

And of course is the reason you can (if I recall rightly) no longer excess to First Class on board with a season in PF areas. The dishonest ones spoiling it for everyone there, as there have been occasions when, if that had been an option, I'd have done it, either because Standard was too busy or because when I got to the train I just felt like a more comfortable seat on that occasion.

FGW is still happy to upgrade on-board, despite much of the core routes being in PF areas. Providing, of course, that you're on a train with a guard.

Which gives the interesting situation in the Thames Valley you could either pay an excess or get a PF or worse, for sitting in First, depending on what stock is operating that service.

If it's a 166 though it's a free upgrade to 1st - most people seem not to have cottoned on that one end is declassified so it's easy to grab a table and (relatively) comfy seat.