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Keir Starmer and the Labour Party

DynamicSpirit

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This actually suggests Bury North was "less Tory than average" in 2019 as it was a minuscule Tory majority despite being a bellweather seat.

Looking at the results for Bury North, from 1986 into the 1990s and 2000s, that seat was remarkably bellweather - not only being won by the same party that won each general election, but with a % majority that invariably closely matched the winning margin in the country. But since then, the seat seems to have veered more Labour than the country as a whole. There was a boundary change in 2010 - I'm not sure if that may be part of the reason. At any rate, it doesn't seem to me to be a 'red wall' seat.
 
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edwin_m

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This story with Angela Rayner seems to be beer gate Mkii. Confected by Tories and thier press quislings to deflect form the chaos of Tory Britain.

Funny how how they don't exert as much effort over Tory dodgy dealing. When Tories owe millions in tax it is "an honest mistake" when a common person owes, allegedly, £2.50 it is the worst crime ever. Odd that.

I also suspect if she has done anything wrong she will resign, unlike Tories.
In the interests of fairness it should be pointed out that Wragg resigned the Tory whip and committee chairmanship when his response to the "honeytrap" became known.
 

DarloRich

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And why I have more respect for Wragg than most Tories.
he was sending personal details of his colleagues to a blackmailer in a massive security breach. You might be ok with that but I haven't got much respect for him! At least he quit in shame i suppose
 

Busaholic

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In the interests of fairness it should be pointed out that Wragg resigned the Tory whip and committee chairmanship when his response to the "honeytrap" became known.
That's like Paula Vennells giving up her gong. He ought to resign his seat, he's no blameless 'victim'. A certain Neil Horner stood down for far less imo. Plenty of time for a by-election, given the General Election is supposedly months off. :smile: Incidentally, although the BBC report quoted already is quite thorough it doesn't mention the journalists targeted, of whom two are known by self-declaration, neither having fallen for the trap. The police, however, did initially report a journalist as well as 2 MPs had provided an image of themselves requested by the unknown bluffer. This is almost certainly a journalist involved in the political world, and one has to wonder if it is one connected to the Mail newspapers. Just a thought.
 

Gloster

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That's like Paula Vennells giving up her gong. He ought to resign his seat, he's no blameless 'victim'. A certain Neil Horner stood down for far less imo. Plenty of time for a by-election, given the General Election is supposedly months off. :smile: Incidentally, although the BBC report quoted already is quite thorough it doesn't mention the journalists targeted, of whom two are known by self-declaration, neither having fallen for the trap. The police, however, did initially report a journalist as well as 2 MPs had provided an image of themselves requested by the unknown bluffer. This is almost certainly a journalist involved in the political world, and one has to wonder if it is one connected to the Mail newspapers. Just a thought.

Do you mean Neil Parish, former MP for Tiverton & Honiton and ex-tractor fan? Though Horner might be a better name.
 

nw1

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he was sending personal details of his colleagues to a blackmailer in a massive security breach. You might be ok with that but I haven't got much respect for him! At least he quit in shame i suppose

What I mean by that is he showed some humility. That always increases my respect for anyone. I'm not saying what he did was right.

(It's the first time I've been called out on here for being semi-sympathetic to a Tory! ;) )

Contrast that to the arrogant and egotistical Braverman who shows no shame whatsoever, and who I have zero respect for. Same goes for other egotistical and arrogant members of the Tory party who know no shame (Gullis, Benton, formerly Anderson, etc).


That's like Paula Vennells giving up her gong. He ought to resign his seat, he's no blameless 'victim'. A certain Neil Horner stood down for far less imo. Plenty of time for a by-election, given the General Election is supposedly months off. :smile: I
Arguably, is there any point? Any byelection wouldn't be until June or July by which time the GE would be 3-4 months away at most, and much of that time would be the summer holiday period anyway.
 
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Falcon1200

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This story with Angela Rayner seems to be beer gate Mkii. Confected by Tories and thier press quislings to deflect form the chaos of Tory Britain.

However the Police, not just the Tories, seem think her conduct is worth investigating.

I also suspect if she has done anything wrong she will resign, unlike Tories.

Ms Rayner demanded, repeatedly, that Tories step down; Not after they had been investigated, charged, found guilty and punished, merely when they were the subject of enquiries; Just as she is now.

I have no idea whether Ms Rayner is guilty of anything, and she may well be fully exonerated. What I find disturbing is the utter hypocrisy, firstly in taking advantage of a Tory policy she professes to despise and buying her council house (resulting in a handy £48k profit) and now remaining in post, completely contrary to her own previous statements regarding Tories.
 

DarloRich

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However the Police, not just the Tories, seem think her conduct is worth investigating.
same as beergate. Driven by Tory pressure and a vast waste of police time and resources that turned out to be ( as anyone with half a brain knew it would)

Ms Rayner demanded, repeatedly, that Tories step down; Not after they had been investigated, charged, found guilty and punished, merely when they were the subject of enquiries; Just as she is now.

I have no idea whether Ms Rayner is guilty of anything, and she may well be fully exonerated. What I find disturbing is the utter hypocrisy, firstly in taking advantage of a Tory policy she professes to despise and buying her council house (resulting in a handy £48k profit) and now remaining in post, completely contrary to her own previous statements regarding Tories.
I find the hypocrisy of the Tory press disturbing. Nadeem Zahawi made "an honest mistake" and had to pay HMRC several million pounds in penalties after some tax trouble and barely a word was said. Here, a working class woman might at worst owe £2K and is being dressed up as the worst criminal ever. It stinks. The Tory super brain running this wont even say what offense they think has been committed!

Furthermore: Woman makes profit on house sale is hardly the damaging attack line the Tory fans seem to think it is. Can you provide a reputable media link to Rayners views on right to buy? All i can find is criticism of the large discounts brought in after 2012 and the fact that council housing stock was not replenished. Neither statement seems troubling.

What's happening here is a confected story is being drummed up to try and damage a Labour campaign asset - Shows the Tories are scared.
 
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Busaholic

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Do you mean Neil Parish, former MP for Tiverton & Honiton and ex-tractor fan? Though Horner might be a better name.
Horner must have been a Freudian slip on my part. :lol: Come to think of it, he might have been watching Massey-Horners, or something sounding similar.
 

najaB

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Didn't it happen a while ago and is now statute-barred? If so, what are the police going to be able to do?
Difficult to answer since no specific crime has been identified. Even the MP who's responsible for nagging the police into starting an investigation refused to say/couldn't say what crime he believed had been committed.

The Tory MP who reported Angela Rayner to the police amid an ongoing row over the sale of her council house refused to explain what alleged offences he thought she had committed.

James Daly, the Conservative Party deputy chairman, failed to answer the question three times during an awkward exchange on the BBC’s Daily Politics programme.

“Well, the Greater Manchester Police last week…announced that they were investigating various matters in relation to this and therefore I think it’s perfectly appropriate to allow that investigation to proceed,” he said.
Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/angela-rayner-council-house-james-daly-b2528997.html
 

urbophile

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I have no idea whether Ms Rayner is guilty of anything, and she may well be fully exonerated. What I find disturbing is the utter hypocrisy, firstly in taking advantage of a Tory policy she professes to despise and buying her council house (resulting in a handy £48k profit) and now remaining in post, completely contrary to her own previous statements regarding Tories.
I'm less than enthused by the present Labour Party, though I feel Angela Rayner is one of the better ones. But I can't go along with accusations of hypocrisy for purchasing a council house. It's rather like saying 'I don't agree with privatising the railways and so I am never going to use a train again.' Or campaigning for the NHS but still being forced to use private dental care. You might violently oppose a policy but find there is no alternative (or no practical or fair alternative) to going along with it.

What was wrong with Thatcher's council house policy was not so much selling them off, as in making it impossible for councils to use the proceeds for building new ones.
 

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What's really depressing about all this is how Labour are scrambling to say "nothing to see here" and "Tory witch-hunt" but not actually being fully transparent about it. I mean part of her role is being Shadow Minister for Housing, if she's done something wrong or taken bad advice, at the very least you'd hope Labour would be open about it. Instead its starting to feel like the justification is "she's not as bad as some Tories".

What an absolute **** shower UK politics has become. Vote for us, our scumbags aren't quite as bad as their scumbags.... :(
 

DarloRich

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What's really depressing about all this is how Labour are scrambling to say "nothing to see here" and "Tory witch-hunt" but not actually being fully transparent about it. I mean part of her role is being Shadow Minister for Housing, if she's done something wrong or taken bad advice, at the very least you'd hope Labour would be open about it. Instead its starting to feel like the justification is "she's not as bad as some Tories".

What an absolute **** shower UK politics has become. Vote for us, our scumbags aren't quite as bad as their scumbags.... :(
And here is why the Tories are desperately flinging excrement at the wall in the hope some sticks. it is to generate exactly this sort of apathy and cynicism so that you either don't vote or vote for them "because nothing changes".

It is nonsense.

PS - All MP's should release thier tax advice and arrangements to the public. Tories first as they seem to have the most "tax planning" to discuss.
 

Bantamzen

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And here is why the Tories are desperately flinging excrement at the wall in the hope some sticks. it is to generate exactly this sort of apathy and cynicism so that you either don't vote or vote for them "because nothing changes".

It is nonsense.

PS - All MP's should release thier tax advice and arrangements to the public. Tories first as they seem to have the most "tax planning" to discuss.
I agree about tax arrangements, but everyone at once. Sadly I suspect neither side would be terribly keen on this, which is why I am totally disengaged from any political party, they are all as bad as each other. Come the GE, I will vote for the candidate that best represents themselves in the run up, and has the best policies for the area I live in.
 

DarloRich

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they are all as bad as each other.
they aren't and to suggest they are is, frankly, lazy.

Come the GE, I will vote for the candidate that best represents themselves in the run up, and has the best policies for the area I live in.
Just to be really clear: Despite all of the damage and chaos of the last 15 years you would vote for a Tory. "if they represent themselves well"? Really?
 

Bantamzen

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they aren't and to suggest they are is, frankly, lazy.
It really isn't. I live in an area dominated by Labour councillors, and its been a train wreck under their stewardship, just like at central government level. They really are as bad as each other, sorry but they just are.

Just to be really clear: Despite all of the damage and chaos of the last 15 years you would vote for a Tory. "if they represent themselves well"? Really?
Yes, because no one party has shown any aptitude to run government either locally or centrally, so the only way to determine if a candidate is in any way suitable is to test their individual views and policies. If the Labour candidate seems to have more idea, I will vote for them, if not I won't And frankly if more people did that, we wouldn't have the clowns to the left and jokers to the right that we are lumbered with. Its time to make prospective MPs actually work for their jobs again.
 

DarloRich

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They really are as bad as each other, sorry but they just are.
That is clearly your view. It is wrong but you are welcome to it. I realise you wont change your mind so I will agree to disagree.

Yes, because no one party has shown any aptitude to run government either locally or centrally, so the only way to determine if a candidate is in any way suitable is to test their individual views and policies.
So to be clear: You look at Johnson and Truss and think, yep, that's for me? Give me more of that chaos please? That's what you are voting for even if you do test the individual views and policies of the local candidate. It is, of course, your business but I simply don't understand how anyone think about consider voting Tory considering the chaos of the last 15 years!
 
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najaB

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What's really depressing about all this is how Labour are scrambling to say "nothing to see here" and "Tory witch-hunt" but not actually being fully transparent about it.
It doesn't really matter how transparent she is being with the press, as long as the police (hopefully) say at the end of it "Having reviewed the evidence we're satisfied that no crime has been committed". At the end of the day, she's not (yet) a member of government and this relates to things that happened before she entered politics, so I don't know how much detail the public are actually entitled to.
 

nw1

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Difficult to answer since no specific crime has been identified. Even the MP who's responsible for nagging the police into starting an investigation refused to say/couldn't say what crime he believed had been committed.


Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/angela-rayner-council-house-james-daly-b2528997.html

Oh dear. Does Daly actually want to hang on to his majority of 100?

Trying to dodge the question just makes it look like it was a politically motivated action, which won't sit well with middle-of-the-road voters, I suspect.
 

edwin_m

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the only way to determine if a candidate is in any way suitable is to test their individual views and policies ... And frankly if more people did that, we wouldn't have the clowns to the left and jokers to the right that we are lumbered with.
In the UK (and to be fair in most other countries), however good your local MP might be personally, they will end up voting most of the time for whatever measures their own party wants to enact. So the manifesto and track record of the party they represent probably outweighs their own personal attributes most of the time.
 

nw1

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Looking at the results for Bury North, from 1986 into the 1990s and 2000s, that seat was remarkably bellweather - not only being won by the same party that won each general election, but with a % majority that invariably closely matched the winning margin in the country. But since then, the seat seems to have veered more Labour than the country as a whole. There was a boundary change in 2010 - I'm not sure if that may be part of the reason. At any rate, it doesn't seem to me to be a 'red wall' seat.

It's a bit hard to understand the politics of Bury North when you look at the stats, with some contradictory voting tendencies.

On the one hand, the fact it was Tory in 2010 by a larger margin than 2019 suggests a socially-liberal, Cameronist sort of place which didn't enthusiastically embrace Johnson in 2019.

On the other hand apparently 54% voted Leave which suggests a socially-conservative place.
 

Bantamzen

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That is clearly your view. It is wrong but you are welcome to it. I realise you wont change your mind so I will agree to disagree.


So to be clear: You look at Johnson and Truss and think, yep, that's for me? Give me more of that chaos please? That's what you are voting for even if you do test the individual views and policies of the local candidate. It is, of course, your business but I simply don't understand how anyone could consider voting Tory considering the chaos of the last 15 years!
Are Truss & Johnson standing in my area (Shipley)? If not, then all candidates will be given a equal hearing. Because as I inferred upthread, Labour have been as chaotic at local level around here, so I hold no allegiance to any party, nor do I have more faith in any one.

It doesn't really matter how transparent she is being with the press, as long as the police (hopefully) say at the end of it "Having reviewed the evidence we're satisfied that no crime has been committed". At the end of the day, she's not (yet) a member of government and this relates to things that happened before she entered politics, so I don't know how much detail the public are actually entitled to.
If that turns out to be the case then fair enough, but why not just make the advice public and avoid any doubt in advance? Starmer says someone has seen it, but if were leader of the party I'd want to be certain myself there was nothing of concern to be able to reassure the party and supporters. Keeping it in house makes eyebrows raise, after all if it were the other way around Labour would be chomping at the bit.

In the UK (and to be fair in most other countries), however good your local MP might be personally, they will end up voting most of the time for whatever measures their own party wants to enact. So the manifesto and track record of the party they represent probably outweighs their own personal attributes most of the time.
Thanks, I've been around long enough on this planet to know how it works. But as I'm trying to explain, I don't trust any one party so this is the most logical way to decide. I don't care if they wear a blue, yellow, red or green tie. How they represent out in the constituency is how I will choose. End of.
 

nw1

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Are Truss & Johnson standing in my area (Shipley)? If not, then all candidates will be given a equal hearing. Because as I inferred upthread, Labour have been as chaotic at local level around here, so I hold no allegiance to any party, nor do I have more faith in any one.
a) The Tory MP for Shipley, Philip Davies, is a pretty controversial character, from what I've heard. Very reactionary hard-right-wing by all accounts. People like him are the perfect illustration of all that is wrong with the current Tory party.

b) General elections are for electing the Government, so if you vote for a Tory MP of any description, even a socially-liberal pro-equality pro-EU one, then you are explicitly voting for 5 more years of Sunak, woke-bashing, immigrant-bashing, and little being done for public services.
 
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DarloRich

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Are Truss & Johnson standing in my area (Shipley)? If not, then all candidates will be given a equal hearing. Because as I inferred upthread, Labour have been as chaotic at local level around here, so I hold no allegiance to any party, nor do I have more faith in any one.
Yes - by extension.

I KNOW we maintain a fiction that you vote for the candidate but you don't. You vote for the party and thier representative. That representative doesn't stand on his or her own policy agenda. They advocate the national policy platform and so by they should be judged on that.

I would be MORE than happy to move to a local based representative elected on thier own agenda but that would imo be practically difficult for a national government. At least you get to vote for a Metro Mayor ( I think) which is much more locally based. I don't have that luxury.
 

zuriblue

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Difficult to answer since no specific crime has been identified. Even the MP who's responsible for nagging the police into starting an investigation refused to say/couldn't say what crime he believed had been committed.


Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/angela-rayner-council-house-james-daly-b2528997.html
Although it does suggest a crime has been committed since wasting Police time can carry a sentence of up to 6 months.

Since the accusation seems to have been motivated by malice that could be seen as an aggravating factor.
 

Bantamzen

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a) The Tory MP for Shipley, Philip Davies, is a pretty controversial character, from what I've heard. Very reactionary hard-right-wing by all accounts. People like him are the perfect illustration of all that is wrong with the current Tory party.
Its actually unclear if he will stand again. However I have never yet voted for him, and frankly given his track record probably never will.

b) General elections are for electing the Government, so if you vote for a Tory MP of any description, even a socially-liberal pro-equality pro-EU one, then you are explicitly voting for 5 more years of Sunak, woke-bashing, immigrant-bashing, and little being done for public services.

Yes - by extension.
So a vote for Labour would be a vote for Corbyn....? Just saying... <D

I KNOW we maintain a fiction that you vote for the candidate but you don't. You vote for the party and thier representative. That representative doesn't stand on his or her own policy agenda. They advocate the national policy platform and so by they should be judged on that.
This is where you and I differ. I do believe we vote for candidate first, and party last. And I do believe in keeping them to their promises, and accountable when they don't.

I would be MORE than happy to move to a local based representative elected on thier own agenda but that would imo be practically difficult for a national government. At least you get to vote for a Metro Mayor ( I think) which is much more locally based. I don't have that luxury.
Oh yes, West Yorkshire Mayor. Whoopie. Chuffing. Do. Don't worry, you're not missing anything.

We are well on our way to getting another shiny map of the proposed tram network that we might see in 50 years time at the current pace. Meanwhile our bus station is falling down and nobody from Bradford Council or West Yorkshire Combined Authority want to talk about what the plan is even after several months. Oh and bus services continue to be dialled back, which is probably a good thing given the lack of somewhere for them all to stop given that the city centre has been pedestrianised and stops are limited to a loop around the edge. And even then not all the stops are ready yet, even though the loop came into being on Sunday. Oh did I also mention some rail services have been dialled back too.... Yay West Yorkshire Mayor...

I could go onto to years of horrific mismanagement of Bradford and the surrounding towns under Labour, loss of business confidence in the area, loss of facilities, shops, pubs, worsening services, rising Council Taxes, worsening roads, threat of bankruptcy, etc etc. Yes some of this can be laid at the door of the Tories, but everything the Labour Council touch seems to turn to crap, or in the case of the bus station concrete dust.

I really have zero reason to believe that a Labour government will do any better, and so I will stick to my strategy for voting.
 

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