Lancaster to Crewe

[rosswilson]

Hi,

I am trying to find an open return ticket from Lancaster to Crewe for the best price. The cheapest that I can find with a 16-25 railcard is £22.95.

But I have just tried searching for a Lancaster to Manchester Stations ticket (calling at Crewe) and it was £10 roughly!?

Is that ticket valid for Lancaster to Crewe? And why would I be paying significantly less for the exact same journey. Train ticket pricing is bonkers.

Kind Regards,

Ross

 

[mikeg]

Wait a minute, it's showing it as valid on the outward and not on the way back... possibly there's an easement that applies in one direction? Maybe the journey planner is wrong? Either way, it won't help you with a return. I also can't find anything in the £10 price range. In this case I suspect it is either the Journey Planner or the National Routeing Guide that is bonkers, not the pricing. After all, Crewe is quite a detour from Lancaster and Manchester.
Oddly enough, extending your ticket to Chester brings the price down a little, but again is not valid for break of journey, at least not on the outward leg... I'll see if I can help you bring the price down...
And try to avoid the use of the word 'open return', it is the old term for 'anytime return'. I often find that people are willing to accept time restrictions on their 'open returns' so what they really mean is 'walk up fare with return on another day', i.e. non-advance. Just to avoid confusion

Splitting at Wigan saves you £2.30, but remember the £12 minimum fare rule before 10AM weekdays (except July, August and bank holidays) as we approach September.
You could buy
Anytime Return (SOR) Lancaster to Wigan Stns - £9.95
Anytime Return (SOR) Wigan Stns to Crewe - £10.70

 

[All Line Rover]

The route on which a ticket is valid is not determined by the Journey Planner's, but is determined by a series of documents called the Routeing Guide (http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide).

I will not explain how to use the Routeing Guide, as it is quite complex and would require another thread. However, the Routeing Guide confirms that a Lancaster to Manchester ticket is valid via Crewe. It is the Journey Planner that is incorrect.

Unfortunately, I haven't found a way to make either the WebTIS or TheTrainLine Journey Planner's route a Lancaster to Manchester ticket via Crewe in both directions. So, you won't be able to get reservations. If you decide to use this ticket via Crewe, you do so at your own risk - you'd need to be able to convince the guard that your ticket is valid if he questions you!

If you buy the ticket from minor, unknown stations (), you shouldn't have any problems. I have used a Lancaster to "station east of Manchester" ticket multiple times via Crewe, and did not encounter any problems - although I did buy the ticket from minor stations.

I am getting slightly concerned by the number of times this Lancaster to Manchester ticket is being mentioned, because it doesn't look that reasonable, and may be closed if the TOC's are made aware of it.

 

[yorkie]

But I have just tried searching for a Lancaster to Manchester Stations ticket (calling at Crewe) and it was £10 roughly!?

Is that ticket valid for Lancaster to Crewe? And why would I be paying significantly less for the exact same journey.

C'mon, that statement is a bit bonkers! I'm sure if you looked at a map you'd realise that! Also how is it "the same journey"?! You may use a ticket for "the same journey" but that doesn't mean it's priced/intended for that journey, obviously!!

As I have said in a few topics recently about methods to reduce the cost "... You can look at Routeing Guide anomalies by looking for 'over-distance' tickets which you can then start/finish short, though ATOC and some TOCs are keen to remove such anomalies so if they get mentioned here that can mean the end of them...."

And as has been mentioned in a huge number of threads recently, permitted routes are defined in the Routeing Guide which can be accessed on the ATOC website, and the journey planners all have their own interpretations of the Guide. They all check it, but the results may vary from planner to planner, and even may vary in different directions.

 

[snail]

Wait a minute, it's showing it as valid on the outward and not on the way back... possibly there's an easement that applies in one direction? Maybe the journey planner is wrong?

Unfortunately, I haven't found a way to make either the WebTIS or TheTrainLine Journey Planner's to route a Lancaster to Manchester ticket via Crewe in both directions. So, you won't be able to get reservations. If you decide to use this ticket via Crewe, you do so at your own risk - you'd need to be able to convince the guard that your ticket is valid if he questions you!

In my (limited) experience, the WebTIS sites will show itineraries using the 'via' station both ways, but not always produce return fares! Trainline sites only use 'via' in the outward direction, which is just stupid. The only site I've found that will consistently price tickets both ways using the 'via' option is Takethetrain.

 

[All Line Rover]

In my (limited) experience, the WebTIS sites will show itineraries using the 'via' station both ways, but not always produce return fares! Trainline sites only use 'via' in the outward direction, which is just stupid. The only site I've found that will consistently price tickets both ways using the 'via' option is Takethetrain.

Thank you.

I don't like "Takethetrain", but the relatively new Northern Rail booking engine (based on "MyTrainTicket") does route a Lancaster to Manchester ticket via Crewe in both directions with reservations.

So if the OP does decide to buy this ticket (as his/her own risk), I recommend buying it through Northern Rail's website, although if you buy an actual "Lancaster to Manchester" ticket, be prepared to get funny looks from the Train Manager!

 

[bb21]

I am trying to find an open return ticket from Lancaster to Crewe for the best price. The cheapest that I can find with a 16-25 railcard is £22.95.

£22.95 is the price of an Off-Peak Return, the return portion of which is valid for a calendar month.

But I have just tried searching for a Lancaster to Manchester Stations ticket (calling at Crewe) and it was £10 roughly!?

£9.75 is the price of an Off-Peak Day Return which is valid for one day only. £10.90 is the price of an Off-Peak Return.

Generally speaking the Off-Peak Return is more expensive to reflect the additional availability for the next ~29 days.

Is that ticket valid for Lancaster to Crewe? And why would I be paying significantly less for the exact same journey. Train ticket pricing is bonkers.

In short, yes. There is no break of journey restrictions on either the £10.90 or £9.75 ticket so you can finish short at Crewe.

Given the price differentials, I would imagine that the Manchester ticket is not meant to be valid at Crewe. However as things currently stand, it is perfectly valid. Beware that if it were an anomaly, if too many people take advantage, the TOC might decide to withdraw such routeing permission.

So if the OP does decide to buy this ticket (as his/her own risk), I recommend buying it through Northern Rail's website, although if you buy an actual "Lancaster to Manchester" ticket, be prepared to get funny looks from the Train Manager!

I echo this.

 

[rosswilson]

Thank you for your help guys, it is much appreciated. My post was merely inquisitive and I will continue to pay the (vastly) greater priced ticket to play it safe.

C'mon, that statement is a bit bonkers! I'm sure if you looked at a map you'd realise that! Also how is it "the same journey"?!

Thank you Yorkie for your reply, although I am quite aware of the geographical placements of Lancaster, Manchester, and Crewe. My original post was simply querying why a ticket priced £10.90 would allow me to (validly, although somewhat abusing the rules) travel on a Lancaster to Crewe service that I would normally pay £22.95 for the privilege. Anyway, no matter.

Once again, many thanks for all your replies.

Ross

 

[yorkie]

My original post was simply querying why a ticket priced £10.90 would allow me to (validly, although somewhat abusing the rules) travel on a Lancaster to Crewe service that I would normally pay £22.95 for the privilege. Anyway, no matter.

Well, you kind of answered your own question there you identify that it's clearly not intended, though I would not use the term "abusing the rules" as it isn't abusing them at all (there is another topic discussing the issue of anomalies and whether it is "pushing it" to use them), it is taking advantage yes, but it's not a misuse or abuse. Therefore, as it is not intended to be used that way, you have your answer

However if you are curious as to why this occurs, in addition to what has been written in the other thread I will give some pointers as to why it can happen:

- Different companies may set the fares, each company has it's own ideas/policies
- On some flows Day returns are available, which tend to be cheaper
- The people who determine valid routes do not determine the fares
- Some routes are valid for historical reasons
- Sometimes mistakes are made
- Sometimes fares increase/decrease at different rates, thus causing a formerly cheaper route/fare to become more expensive

It is sensible to pay a little more and buy the ticket to/from a more reasonable station than Manchester, as otherwise you massively increase the risk of being challenged, possibly be asked to pay a fare (which you could reclaim later) or issued an unpaid fare notice (which you have 21 days to appeal), and quite likely have the routeing reported to ATOC for withdrawal who would then justify the request to the DfT by arguing that it was a "mistake" and was "never intended" (or words to that effect). This routeing is already at great risk of withdrawal as it has been posted here.

 

[island]

or issued an unpaid fare notice (which you have 21 days to appeal)

I think it's only ten.

 

[evil_hippo]

I echo Yorkie in pointing out that the greatest risk to useful ticketing anomalies is when a specific case is appealed. Therefore, if in similar circumstances I am challenged, I will pay what the conductor demands just that once to avoid drawing attention.

It was a good suggestion of All Line Rover to purchase a ticket to a more obscure station - Conductors know where major stations are, but are less likely to be worried by stations they're not quite sure about the location of off the top of their head.

 

[yorkie]

I think it's only ten.

The UPFN I just assisted in responding to was 21, but perhaps it varies by TOC.