LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

[Benjwri]

Have there been any attempts to report LNER to trading standards or similar?

This would get absolutely nowhere. In any way trading standards can enforce, LNER have the right to refuse service to anyone. As long as the reason for refusal is not discriminatory, which it is not, they are refusing service to everyone, there is nothing for trading standards to do. It is exactly the same as if a restaurant refused to accept any more customers because they were full. The customers have not purchased a ticket, so no contract has been formed either.

 

[island]

This would get absolutely nowhere. In any way trading standards can enforce, LNER have the right to refuse service to anyone. As long as the reason for refusal is not discriminatory, which it is not, they are refusing service to everyone, there is nothing for trading standards to do. It is exactly the same as if a restaurant refused to accept any more customers because they were full. The customers have not purchased a ticket, so no contract has been formed either.

Precisely. Trading Standards have no jurisdiction to consider this.

 

[AlterEgo]

I questioned them once on Twitter; there was a lot of fluffing about before admitting that actually no, reservations aren't compulsory on that service. Then a comment that they would look into the wording on the website, which of course didn't happen, then they just stopped responding.

If you push them so far down that road they'll just end up making reservations compulsory. The point of the wording is to almost have the same effect as compulsory reservations without any of the political fallout - but you can be sure that if pressed with a binary choice between the two, LNER will make reservations compulsory.

 

[BRX]

Presumably all they’re doing is declining to sell tickets on their website to try to damp down demand, thereby turning away business. In which case the statement that the tickets are “not available” through the site is quite correct. They aren’t actually stating that you can’t travel if you have a valid ticket purchased from another source.

I’m not saying I necessarily agree with their approach, but it’s hard to see how they’re making any false or misleading statements.

Their website (when you do a journey search and click through to details) states that reservations are compulsory, for certain journey/ticket types including off peaks. It's not just that they are declining to sell.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Their website (when you do a journey search and click through to details) states that reservations are compulsory, for certain journey/ticket types including off peaks. It's not just that they are declining to sell.

It says it but it isn't actually the case on the ground.

 

[Willie Bee]

There are some trains with availability that day so you could buy a flexible ticket. And don't forget Manors and Haymarket!

When this thread started I heard about the Manors and Haymarket ticket options .. there were a couple of London stations too which kept getting mentioned.I've just forgotten their names

I'm not too sure how these 'tricks' work

I am travelling from Newcastle to Edinburgh with my wife (with 2 senior railcards) in a few months, although tickets are not yet available. I look however at prices for the end of May .. see two attached images.

Three of the options are including the exact same LNER train to Edinburgh .. in all cases the basic NCL - EDB fares are cheaper than adding the other options

 

[Bletchleyite]

The trick is easy - if you want a Super Off Peak Single from Kings X to Edinburgh, buy one to Haymarket, and if you want one to Newcastle, buy one to Manors.

You don't, as things stand, need to do it for any other journey than those two specifically as the Super Off Peaks still exist.

It isn't relevant to Advances as these don't permit break of journey or start/end short. The best way to get good value Advances is to use a site that does splitting such as the Forum's one.

 

[Willie Bee]

It isn't relevant to Advances as these don't permit break of journey or start/end short.

Oh, I see now .. I always buy advances .. thanks for your reply

We are heading to London in August, and will hopefully book early enough to see advances being available

 

[Haywain]

Oh, I see now .. I always buy advances .. thanks for your reply

We are heading to London in August, and will hopefully book early enough to see advances being available

It also isn't relevant to journeys not involving London.

 

[BRX]

It says it but it isn't actually the case on the ground.

In other words they are lying about the conditions attached to tickets they are supposed to be selling impartially.

 

[Haywain]

In other words they are lying about the conditions attached to tickets they are supposed to be selling impartially.

Only ticket offices are required to sell tickets impartially, and they will.

 

[Mainline421]

It's just blatant false advertising isn't it? The fact is, tickets are available for these services.

There will be lots of people who do a search, see all these "not available" notes, and choose to travel by some other route, probably much slower and possibly more expensive. If they were able to obtain an off peak single for the LNER trains then yes maybe they'd be crowded and they might have to stand. But the same could be the case on any alternatives. If you dont want to risk standing, you can find a train with reservations available.

Have there been any attempts to report LNER to trading standards or similar?

I questioned them once on Twitter; there was a lot of fluffing about before admitting that actually no, reservations aren't compulsory on that service. Then a comment that they would look into the wording on the website, which of course didn't happen, then they just stopped responding.

Iarnrod Eireann do the same but manage to make it slightly clearer
(Image shows a train with no tickets available on irishrail.ie)

Their website (when you do a journey search and click through to details) states that reservations are compulsory, for certain journey/ticket types including off peaks. It's not just that they are declining to sell.

It actually doesn't, the only reference to "compulsory" reservations is the automatic flag they've deliberately set wrong for their trains in the timetable data, you won't find it in reference to any off-peak tickets or journey combinations.

 

[BRX]

It actually doesn't, the only reference to "compulsory" reservations is the automatic flag they've deliberately set wrong for their trains in the timetable data, you won't find it in reference to any off-peak tickets or journey combinations.

It does - the word is "mandatory":

 

[Mainline421]

It does - the word is "mandatory":

View attachment 155334

As I said "is the automatic flag they've deliberately set wrong for their trains in the timetable data" this is linked to the train, not to any journey or ticket. This is of course wrong as LNER themselves will confirm, but all sites will display this under facilities for that service.

 

[BRX]

Whatever the mechanics of it, they're deliberately putting information out there that is wrong, and that could lead people to believe that a ticket they have is not valid on certain services, when in fact it is. Or, that they need to buy a more expensive ticket than they actually do. I don't see how that's not mis-selling.

Only ticket offices are required to sell tickets impartially, and they will.

I thought it applied to online retailers too.

 

[43066]

Whatever the mechanics of it, they're deliberately putting information out there that is wrong, and that could lead people to believe that a ticket they have is not valid on certain services, when in fact it is. Or, that they need to buy a more expensive ticket than they actually do. I don't see how that's not mis-selling.

In which case, if that’s your belief, you should report the matter to the ASA and CTSI, and let us know how you get on.

 

[Wallsendmag]

The trick is easy - if you want a Super Off Peak Single from Kings X to Edinburgh, buy one to Haymarket, and if you want one to Newcastle, buy one to Manors.

You don't, as things stand, need to do it for any other journey than those two specifically as the Super Off Peaks still exist.

You’ve missed Berwick

 

[Bletchleyite]

You’ve missed Berwick

So I did.

I think I'd suggest a certain newish white-elephant Scottish station just north thereof is probably deserving of a bit of an uplift in passenger usage statistics?

 

[Starmill]

What that does show is a need for more capacity - given that LNER do counted places on top of reserving almost every seat those trains are going to be pretty busy.

Busy yes. Full no, given LNER know that vast numbers of reservations are booked and not taken up on the day. Also there's always vacant capacity wasted that's not possible to retail because although there's a vacant space all the way from Newcastle to London, it's not in the same seat, so the reservation query comes back with a zero but in reality you'd be able to sit all the way.

You don't pay for longer trains or more capacity while doing nothing about these points. It's frivolous and wasteful. LNER need to urgently change course and fix these problems, or if they find they can't do that in a fast, cheap way, go back to marking the trains reservations recommended, and not compulsory.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You don't pay for longer trains or more capacity while doing nothing about these points. It's frivolous and wasteful. LNER need to urgently change course and fix these problems, or if they find they can't do that in a fast, cheap way, go back to marking the trains reservations recommended, and not compulsory.

What is needed in that regard is a means of marking a train not for sale yet without using the mandatory reservation flag. Something was being looked into along those lines (because it does make sense to avoid flogging people Anytime Singles on trains that may not exist, which is what happens otherwise) but it seems to have gone quiet.

Isn't the way LNER were working around this to sell counted places over and above the number of seats, though? Have they stopped doing this? Avanti certainly aren't doing it, but Avanti are incompetent - I may not (OK, do not) agree with LNER policy but they usually come across as knowing what they are doing.

 

[Starmill]

If you push them so far down that road they'll just end up making reservations compulsory. The point of the wording is to almost have the same effect as compulsory reservations without any of the political fallout - but you can be sure that if pressed with a binary choice between the two, LNER will make reservations compulsory.

It's so curious to see that even with the extra price rise last year, real yield is well down against 2019 levels. Almost as if people are being badly put off by the sharp practice of saying a train is full when it isn't.

What is needed in that regard is a means of marking a train not for sale yet without using the mandatory reservation flag.

This is already possible in the form of all services being unadvertised on particular days. It's just laziness that they don't want to go through changing it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's so curious to see that even with the extra price rise last year, real yield is well down against 2019 levels. Almost as if people are being badly put off by the sharp practice of saying a train is full when it isn't.

I think WMT and Chiltern are walking all over Avanti on Birmingham-Euston, partly because Avanti is expensive and partly because of that. But I think yield being down is mainly fewer business travellers meaning fewer Anytimes sold. Passenger numbers I think are back to about 2019 levels now, the average they're paying is just a bit less because most aren't going in the traditional peaks. Which is sort of the reason behind all this - they want to charge more for what are now the peaks (Fri PM, Sun PM, Sat day trips).

 

[Starmill]

Isn't the way LNER were working around this to sell counted places over and above the number of seats, though? Have they stopped doing this?

The counted places are not, and never have been, for the people who don't show up. They're only for the unreserved seats, which is about 25 standard class and 10 first class now. It's tiny.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The counted places are not, and never have been, for the people who don't show up. They're only for the unreserved seats, which is about 25 standard class and 10 first class now. It's tiny.

That's bad, then. They should increase the number to "overbook" to take account of no-shows and the opportunity to split a journey across two seats (something which is made more pronounced as an issue by seat selection, by the way, which is why I've always thought it would make sense for it to be chargeable rather than free).

 

[Haywain]

The counted places are not, and never have been, for the people who don't show up. They're only for the unreserved seats, which is about 25 standard class and 10 first class now. It's tiny.

Except that thenumber of counted places issued is considerably in excess of the number of unreserved seats.

 

[Starmill]

Except that thenumber of counted places issued is considerably in excess of the number of unreserved seats.

For which trains? The ones I've seen in RARS2 are clearly matching them up in proportion. But even if all you do is add the last reservable seat to your basket and then keep adding more until you can't you still get a low number of seats of about half a coach to a coach. Some trains could have a lot of seats that can't be reserved in different parts of the train on that service only, which could explain it, but is effectively impossible to check.

 

[Wallsendmag]

For which trains? The ones I've seen in RARS2 are clearly matching them up in proportion. But even if all you do is add the last reservable seat to your basket and then keep adding more until you can't you still get a low number of seats of about half a coach to a coach. Some trains could have a lot of seats that can't be reserved in different parts of the train on that service only, which could explain it, but is effectively impossible to check.

Have to say I was under the impression the numbers were much larger than you've quoted

 

[Bletchleyite]

Had a bit of a nose over the coming week or two and unsurprisingly almost all trains are more expensive than the Super Off Peak Single was. £130ish seems a fairly typical figure.

The reason for this becomes ever clearer...

 

[yorksrob]

I was quite disappointed to see the continuing lack of challenge to this from Modern Railways in the latest edition.

 

[Starmill]

I was quite disappointed to see the continuing lack of challenge to this from Modern Railways in the latest edition.

I think at the end of the day it's a publication with mostly wealthy journalists on the payroll catering to a mostly wealthy subscriber base. Certainly they're in the main not the sort of people who are going to be fussed at spending £130 - £150 each way between London and Edinburgh as a matter of course.