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Locomotive haulage vs. multiple units

Bletchleyite

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From: https://www.railforums.co.uk/goto/post?id=6760304

There are notable benefits of loco-haulage over multiple units, including a better passenger experience (no underfloor engines)

You can't really hear the engines on an 80x - indeed, the transformer whine is to me far more disruptive than the very slight bit of vibration from the engines when on diesel. And there are other ways to do a DMU, i.e. Stadler style.

and usually being easier to add/remove vehicles to better match demand

Short, ideally gangwayed MU formations win on that. Nobody reforms LHCS on an ad hoc basis any more. Indeed, Mk5a sets are basically unpowered single-ended multiple units more like a 4-TC than traditional LHCS. Even the Swiss (who are heavily moving towards MUs) basically treat LHCS as MUs, coupling an entire extra section on the end of some trains, sometimes even with its loco.

Chiltern are reforming their DMU sets all day to fit capacity to demand. So are WMT to an extent. No LHCS operator has done that in the last 30 years - I think the last one to add random vehicles (and even then it wasn't add/remove during the day) was First North Western on their Mk2 sets.

Locos and coaching sets can also be on different maintenance cycles, so for instance if engines need to be swapped out you don’t need to take the passenger accommodation out of service, you just swap the locos.

This one is true.
 
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zwk500

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I'm assuming this has split from another thread, @Bletchleyite could you link back to it please?
Short, ideally gangwayed MU formations win on that. Nobody reforms LHCS on an ad hoc basis any more.
This is very much true. Given the need for the on-train systems now with PIS and connected alarms and door release, coupling stock in service is going to be increasingly unpopular, not to mention the extra infrastructure and time you need to stable and marshal carriages.
This one is true.
This isn't that big a benefit though - wasn't it mentioned that the Mk5s and 68s were essentially operating in fixed pairs as well (i.e. one rake always worked with the same loco?).

Caledonian Sleeper went for LHCS because of their particular requirements to shunt sets and the different numbers of carriages. Chiltern went for LHCS because it was readily available and they needed more stock quickly. I'm not sure why TPE went for LHCS but it's hardly been wildly successful.

The only real advantage I could see of Loco-Hauled would be where you wanted an EMU on a fast section of track that disbenefits bi-modes but then it ran onto non-electrified track that was beyond battery range, so you could have the EMU run to a suitable station and then be picked up by a waiting loco to run to the final terminus. But that's a very niche situation.
 

FlyingPotato

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For loco hauled, how much of the demand is based on nostalgia and the fact that loco hauled trains are quite cool and niche

As much as I'd like to see them for purely fun purposes, I can't see a use overall, apart from sleepers and for tourist trains

It's not easy to change locos for different traction, Yes you can do it in Czechia but they have a network built for that, we don't anymore


You do lose 20m+/- for each one, and with constrained platform lengths that's a whole carriage in reality


Overall, MUs, are just better now, even though it'll be sad to see loco hauled going
 

Taunton

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A multiple unit can be grounded for a trivial reason, which rather encourages short units joined together. The recent trend to full length 10 or 12 car units means that, even for something minor like a broken window which is out of stock, the whole formation is out of action.

It also runs against longer term alterations in usage. Few trains spend their whole life on one service which has unchanging demand.

I did feel that when the 800s came along, coupled 5-car sets had a real advantage, particularly on Paddington services where the demand commonly falls right off at the outer ends. Others said this would lead to constant short forms, which I just felt was something to manage, but so it has turned out. I really don't get why it seems able to get out all the cars of a 9-car fixed formation, but only 5 cars of two such meant to be coupled.
 

JamesT

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A multiple unit can be grounded for a trivial reason, which rather encourages short units joined together. The recent trend to full length 10 or 12 car units means that, even for something minor like a broken window which is out of stock, the whole formation is out of action.

It also runs against longer term alterations in usage. Few trains spend their whole life on one service which has unchanging demand.

I did feel that when the 800s came along, coupled 5-car sets had a real advantage, particularly on Paddington services where the demand commonly falls right off at the outer ends. Others said this would lead to constant short forms, which I just felt was something to manage, but so it has turned out. I really don't get why it seems able to get out all the cars of a 9-car fixed formation, but only 5 cars of two such meant to be coupled.
As you note, they do have a variety of services with different lengths. The problem GWR has is getting the full fleet out. Are they definitely getting all the 9s out, or are they having to sub 5s or 2x5s onto those and the scheduled 2x5 services end up with only a single?
 

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A multiple unit can be grounded for a trivial reason, which rather encourages short units joined together. The recent trend to full length 10 or 12 car units means that, even for something minor like a broken window which is out of stock, the whole formation is out of action.

I was going to bring up something like this. Other than the fact that the industry can't build a compatible TMS there isn't a particular reason to be 100% LHCS or 100% fixed formation MU. A mix of powered & unpowered units coupled together would work just as well if you could keep the P/W ratio up. You could even make most of the train of flat ended gangway units & attach a streamlined vehicle to each end for higher speed if you want. That gains you both your flexibility and your redundancy, but it'd also need properly enforced standards... yeah, not for a generation at least.
 

Taunton

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Other than the fact that the industry can't build a compatible TMS
Compatible TMS? The industry seems unable to even do compatible couplers.

Key to the notorious Kentish Town incident was:

- Having a recovery plan which involved failed trains being assisted by the one behind.
- Buying two fleets of trains which had different, incompatible couplers.
- Arranging a high frequency timetable where alternate trains were formed of these alternate types of stock, so nothing could ever be assisted by the one behind.

You couldn't make it up, could you?
 

stevieinselby

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I did feel that when the 800s came along, coupled 5-car sets had a real advantage, particularly on Paddington services where the demand commonly falls right off at the outer ends. Others said this would lead to constant short forms, which I just felt was something to manage, but so it has turned out. I really don't get why it seems able to get out all the cars of a 9-car fixed formation, but only 5 cars of two such meant to be coupled.
Part of the problem is an overall shortage of fleet, particularly with the Castle sets being replaced by IETs on many journeys meaning that they don't have as many IETs available for the intercity services.
(I'm not sure if the order was also predicated on Oxford being electrified and therefore not needing IETs, which may be another factor)

So sometimes a 5+5 IET formation will be subbed with a single 5, or other times a 5+5 might be subbed with a 9 and that 9's diagram be subbed with a single 5, in order to free up the 5s to work on formerly Castle services. There have been plenty of instances of journeys booked for a 9-car having a 5-car turn up!
 

Energy

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Caledonian Sleeper went for LHCS because of their particular requirements to shunt sets and the different numbers of carriages. Chiltern went for LHCS because it was readily available and they needed more stock quickly.
Even overseas, OBB went for it on the railjets because their Taurus locomotives were young when the stock needed replacement. Flixtrain went for it because a load of used carriages were available.
I'm not sure why TPE went for LHCS but it's hardly been wildly successful.
It was expected that delivery times would be quick (July 2018 IIRC), the 68s were already a proven built design and the Mk5as were a tag-on order to the Caledonian Sleeper's order.

The TPE tender didn't allow bidders to use 14x, 15x, 16x, or 17x fleets. Otherwise they'd probably just take on the 170s Scotrail were letting go till the 802s arrive.
 

Greybeard33

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This isn't that big a benefit though - wasn't it mentioned that the Mk5s and 68s were essentially operating in fixed pairs as well (i.e. one rake always worked with the same loco?).
TPE did swap locos between Mk5a sets from time to time.

A multiple unit can be grounded for a trivial reason, which rather encourages short units joined together. The recent trend to full length 10 or 12 car units means that, even for something minor like a broken window which is out of stock, the whole formation is out of action.
With fixed formation LHCS, like the Mk5a's, something minor like a broken window can equally require the whole set to be taken out of service.
 
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Mikey C

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For sub 110 mph speeds, multiple units with end gangways are surely the optimal solution.

That way you don't run excessively long trains at quiet times, and don't have to take a whole 12 car trains out of service due to a problem with one carriage. Plus you can divide the train so that only part of it goes all the way.

And unlike units with no gangways, you don't end up with too many passengers stuck down the back of the train because they can't get through to the front unit, as with Chiltern for example.
 

Bletchleyite

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TPE did swap locos between Mk5a sets from time to time.


With fixed formation LHCS, like the Mk5a's, something minor like a broken window can equally require the whole set to be taken out of service.

I think it's fair to say that fixed-formation LHCS (which is most of it these days - even if you technically *can* shunt a coach out of a TfW Mk4 set this mostly won't happen) is the worst of both worlds. To get LHCS benefit you need UIC style independent vehicles of as few types as possible and the ability to shunt them.

In the world of diesel operation, 2 and 3-car gangwayed DMUs provide far more of the classic LHCS flexibility now. Likely hence TfW's choice to go with this solution with the 197s.

In the world of electrics, loco-haulage has almost no advantages at all over EMUs in 2024. Even the Southern worked that out a long time ago!
 

Taunton

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I think it's fair to say that fixed-formation LHCS (which is most of it these days - even if you technically *can* shunt a coach out of a TfW Mk4 set this mostly won't happen) is the worst of both worlds. To get LHCS benefit you need UIC style independent vehicles of as few types as possible and the ability to shunt them.

In the world of diesel operation, 2 and 3-car gangwayed DMUs provide far more of the classic LHCS flexibility now. Likely hence TfW's choice to go with this solution with the 197s.

In the world of electrics, loco-haulage has almost no advantages at all over EMUs in 2024. Even the Southern worked that out a long time ago!
This is just what was said about HSTs when they first came along - fixed formation trainsets. An article in Modern Railways 12 months after introduction showed how, in order to maintain the full service, they were shunting in and out at the depot every night. In fact Bounds Green asked for and got their own Class 08, specially fitted with HST couplings, specifically to do this.

The magazine visited one night; an air con module in a restaurant car had failed, for which they didn't have a spare module. But they did have a spare restaurant car in another set which was stopped for a different reason. Cue the Class 08. For those unfamiliar with these practices, such on-the-spot decisions are what engineering managers do (did) for a living.
 

HSTEd

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The ideal is likely to make multiple unit vehicles that contain all necessary traction equipment, as is seen in the Sprinter series.
The siren call of 4 car sets sharing compressors and the like can cause serious issues with regards shunting together useful formations.


Of course how this works with streamlined cabs and especially pantographs for overhead wiring is another question.
 

43096

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Even overseas, OBB went for it on the railjets because their Taurus locomotives were young when the stock needed replacement. Flixtrain went for it because a load of used carriages were available.
But ČD have gone for new loco hauled sets and brand new Vectron locos.
 

Energy

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But ČD have gone for new loco hauled sets and brand new Vectron locos.
The ČD order was originally OBB units they no longer wanted, so I presume they got a good price for them.
 

MarkyT

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But ČD have gone for new loco hauled sets and brand new Vectron locos.
OBB have continued with the loco hauled push-pull concept with their latest Railjet NG being delivered by Siemens. This has low floor sections in seven of the nine cars for level boarding. Low floor suits the loco hauled or power car paradigm because you're not having to accommodate bulky power bogies beneath the passenger saloons. DB's latest ICE-L also incorporate LB@760mm and is a low floor Talgo product, again with end loco/power car architecture. Talgo's new Avril HS train has end power cars as has Alstom's Avelia, solidly backed by SNCF and Amtrak, after the company sold disappointing numbers of their fully distributed traction AGV product. DB has stated it will only buy fully level boarding trains in the future so that is a big challenge to Siemens who have resolutely held out on high floor, partly distributed traction configurations for high speed.
 

507020

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It seems that everyone in this thread insists that DMUs are better “because they’re better” which is even less of a valid reason than citing enthusiasts as the sole appeal of loco haulage.

I’m well aware of the reasons for the use of EMUs, my local line being the first to see them introduced by the L&YR. The argument was entirely to do with quadrupling the capacity of terminal accommodation, movements to and from the turntable being required by multiple locos in addition to those bringing stock in and out of the station. With those movements crossing the station throat eliminated, a more intensive, higher capacity passenger service could be operated than was possible by conventional methods.

By the time DMUs were devised to copy this mode of operation without electrification, the railway not only had a crude oil lobby to give into, someone had also given it the brilliant idea that by being more efficient, they could slash terminal capacity rather than increasing it. They had also lost any concept of having standards.

It’s alright saying multiple units have better acceleration, or that by not having a single vehicle at the front which is much heavier than the others you reduce track maintenance costs, but when you have a mixed traffic railway, none of these things matter. Loco haulage is still required for freight traffic (unless we’re going to put motors on container wagons) and can no longer share resources with passenger services. All you’re doing is making it harder to manage capacity, the opposite of the reason for using EMUs in the first place.

Why was it that in the dying days of BR in the 1990s, we still saw a proliferance of loco hauled workings, deputising for failed or unavailable multiple units, both Diesel and electric, but particularly Pacers? I would suggest that the reason for the almost total extinction of LHCS in this country (but notably not others) is an obsession with doing things on the cheap, not properly and not having any form of minimum appropriate standards.

DMUs are worse than EMUs. Note how many DMUs run without the full range of amenities that would be present on the conventional loco hauled stock they replaced e.g. catering and how many EMUs retained this until it was lost around privatisation and also how many incompatible DMU and EMU fleets are now present on the network, which cannot rescue each other. Almost all of BR’s first generation multiple units were able to be rescued by, or even run in service with a loco that would be available locally.

Loco haulage has a number of particularly significant advantages, more than just generically more comfortable passenger accommodation due to not having underfloor Diesel traction noise or vibrations (although why was this deemed to be acceptable in the first place?) I would rather focus on the abilities for standard locos to be more efficiently shared between passenger and freight operations, to change loco including traction type either at a strategic location (Voyagers under the wires Manchester - Coventry vs a loco change by BR at this location) or even when you simply want to use the loco or stock for a different purpose. You don’t need a new line to be electrified or some other massive change.

Loco haulage is also much more flexible when you want to make some variation to the ordinary timetable, either an extra coach for a group booking, by a wedding, school etc, rather than them booking a road coach, or for dedicated additional day excursion trains including footexs. Note the difficulty running these kind of services with fixed formation DMUs.

Making upgrades to traction and passenger accommodation independently of each other should also be an advantage, but having multiple redundant, complicated, expensive cabs buried in the consist when not necessary is obviously not the most efficient way to run a railway and once you have 2 or 3 units in multiple, they still take up as much platform length as a loco would, but in the middle of the platform rather than at one end. Perhaps we shouldn’t have so many unusably short platforms on the network anymore.

It’s as if there’s no ambition to run longer trains to increase capacity, let alone sufficient stock to do it. The ability to build and maintain a large number of simple and comfortable passenger vehicles cheaply, without the requirement for them to also carry all the equipment for them to move themselves, either individually or as a group of 4 coaches etc, with a national shortage of DMU vehicles while off lease fleets EMUs, constituting what would otherwise be a large number of coaches, unable to be used by any means. Not having underfloor traction equipment would also make it easier to build low floor coaches for level boarding, if we had the capability to design such vehicles.
This is just what was said about HSTs when they first came along - fixed formation trainsets. An article in Modern Railways 12 months after introduction showed how, in order to maintain the full service, they were shunting in and out at the depot every night. In fact Bounds Green asked for and got their own Class 08, specially fitted with HST couplings, specifically to do this.

The magazine visited one night; an air con module in a restaurant car had failed, for which they didn't have a spare module. But they did have a spare restaurant car in another set which was stopped for a different reason. Cue the Class 08. For those unfamiliar with these practices, such on-the-spot decisions are what engineering managers do (did) for a living.
It’s almost unfathomable in the context of today’s railway that this was done not to ensure that the service ran, but to ensure it ran with air conditioning in the restaurant car - what proportion of trains today run with no catering or working aircon - including those that are supposed to have it?

So early into their introduction, other possible options due to a single fault on a single HST vehicle could have been, bring in a Deltic or Western hauled service with different stock, simply remove the restaurant car and run the HST without catering, given that it was not acceptable for BR to run a restaurant car without aircon, remarshalling of the HST set that night was obviously by far the best solution for passengers, making the issue entirely transparent to them and since it seems BR were prepared for it, little to no extra work for the railway.

Both the faults with the aircon module and the other fault with the set which the spare restaurant car came from could be seen and rectified by maintenance on the same day as a full HST was in revenue earning service both with catering and aircon available to passengers all day and without the need to swap the restaurant cars back afterwards. That sounds like a railway functioning perfectly.
 

43096

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The ČD order was originally OBB units they no longer wanted, so I presume they got a good price for them.
That was the case for their seven RailJet sets, but that’s not what I was referring to.

They have taken delivery of 10 x 5-car sets and have 20 x 9-car sets on order, both as a result of a separate procurement exercise that was totally separate from ÖBB.

You’ve also completely ignored that they have ordered new locos to go with these sets.
 

Energy

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Low floor suits the loco hauled or power car paradigm because you're not having to accommodate bulky power bogies beneath the passenger saloons.
The wheels limit the low floor more than the motors. Talgo completely does away with bogies on passenger vehicles so need the power cars to move.

Also, most multiple units have unpowered vehicles.
after the company sold disappointing numbers of their fully distributed traction AGV product.
The Avelia Liberty/Horizon hasn't sold brilliantly either, only selling to SNCF (who are an almost guaranteed order for Alstom) and Amtrack. The distributed-traction Pendolino sold a lot better than the AGV.
DB has stated it will only buy fully level boarding trains in the future so that is a big challenge to Siemens who have resolutely held out on high floor, partly distributed traction configurations for high speed.
Probably not much different from the current Velaros, though the doors will just be in the centre section of the vehicle rather than the ends.
I would rather focus on the abilities for standard locos to be more efficiently shared between passenger and freight operations, to change loco including traction type either at a strategic location (Voyagers under the wires Manchester - Coventry vs a loco change by BR at this location) or even when you simply want to use the loco or stock for a different purpose. You don’t need a new line to be electrified or some other massive change.

Loco haulage is also much more flexible when you want to make some variation to the ordinary timetable, either an extra coach for a group booking, by a wedding, school etc, rather than them booking a road coach, or for dedicated additional day excursion trains including footexs. Note the difficulty running these kind of services with fixed formation DMUs.
I think you underestimating the work required for loco-swaps, even British Rail moved towards DVTs. Loco-swaps at Coventry and whatnot just cannot happen on what's now a much busier network. Particularly compared to pressing some buttons in a bi-mode vehicle.
That was the case for their seven RailJet sets, but that’s not what I was referring to.

They have taken delivery of 10 x 5-car sets and have 20 x 9-car sets on order, both as a result of a separate procurement exercise that was totally separate from ÖBB.

You’ve also completely ignored that they have ordered new locos to go with these sets.
Fair enough, I'm not particularly knowledgeable about Czechia's railways and sources are rarer than the UK (particularly ones in English).

Part of this will be similarity to CD's existing RailJet sets.

OBB have also ordered Stadler KISS sets for RailJet services which need higher capacity.
 

HSTEd

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It seems that everyone in this thread insists that DMUs are better “because they’re better” which is even less of a valid reason than citing enthusiasts as the sole appeal of loco haulage.

I’m well aware of the reasons for the use of EMUs, my local line being the first to see them introduced by the L&YR. The argument was entirely to do with quadrupling the capacity of terminal accommodation, movements to and from the turntable being required by multiple locos in addition to those bringing stock in and out of the station. With those movements crossing the station throat eliminated, a more intensive, higher capacity passenger service could be operated than was possible by conventional methods.

By the time DMUs were devised to copy this mode of operation without electrification, the railway not only had a crude oil lobby to give into, someone had also given it the brilliant idea that by being more efficient, they could slash terminal capacity rather than increasing it. They had also lost any concept of having standards.

It’s alright saying multiple units have better acceleration, or that by not having a single vehicle at the front which is much heavier than the others you reduce track maintenance costs, but when you have a mixed traffic railway, none of these things matter. Loco haulage is still required for freight traffic (unless we’re going to put motors on container wagons) and can no longer share resources with passenger services. All you’re doing is making it harder to manage capacity, the opposite of the reason for using EMUs in the first place.
Well given that freight traffic is dominated by low speed high tractive effort opeations, there is very limited scope for "mixed traffic locomotives" in the modern world.
Which is why only DRS has attempted to buy any since the Class 67 debacle, and the Class 68s have not proven at all succesful with actual freight operations.

Acceleration does really matter, because it reduces journey times for passengers. Especially given the trend towards "metroised" clockface timetables with significant numbers of stops
Saving maintenance costs is kind of important, after all, who do you think pays for the railway?

As for motors on container wagons.... it has been done in japan, no fundamental reason it could not be done here if it came down to it.
Why was it that in the dying days of BR in the 1990s, we still saw a proliferance of loco hauled workings, deputising for failed or unavailable multiple units, both Diesel and electric, but particularly Pacers? I would suggest that the reason for the almost total extinction of LHCS in this country (but notably not others) is an obsession with doing things on the cheap, not properly and not having any form of minimum appropriate standards.
Because BR had a huge supply of ancient loco hauled stock and locomotives lying around to do the job?
That supply doesn't exist, given that it has mostly been converted into food tins and razorblades by now.
DMUs are worse than EMUs. Note how many DMUs run without the full range of amenities that would be present on the conventional loco hauled stock they replaced e.g. catering and how many EMUs retained this until it was lost around privatisation and also how many incompatible DMU and EMU fleets are now present on the network, which cannot rescue each other. Almost all of BR’s first generation multiple units were able to be rescued by, or even run in service with a loco that would be available locally.
Well the demise of catering has nothing to do with multiple units and everything to do with its terrible economics.
As for incompatible standards, that is again to do with the modern insanity of the railway industry, not a fundamental limit on the multiple unit concept.
Essentially every EMU from the PEPs through to privatisation had fundamentally the same multiple working specification.

There were minor variations but everything that wasn't late built Mark 1 (or the 5WES, built from Mark 1 parts) used fundamentally the same one.
Indeed EMU multiple unit control was far more standardised than locomotive multiple unit control!
Loco haulage is also much more flexible when you want to make some variation to the ordinary timetable, either an extra coach for a group booking, by a wedding, school etc, rather than them booking a road coach, or for dedicated additional day excursion trains including footexs. Note the difficulty running these kind of services with fixed formation DMUs.
But those bookings are not economically rational traffic for the railway to be taking.
You have to keep paths lying around to use for special occasions, rather than just running a service train all day every day.
 
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507020

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The wheels limit the low floor more than the motors. Talgo completely does away with bogies on passenger vehicles so need the power cars to move.

Also, most multiple units have unpowered vehicles.
The motor bogie of an EMU may not affect floor height compared to a trailer bogie, but accommodating an underfloor Diesel engine does. Stadler’s low floor DEMUs (which I am a fan of) have a power car taking up platform length, but it is clever how the area below the floor is taken up by the fuel tank.

Most EMUs have unpowered vehicles, but most DMUs do not and would be underpowered otherwise.
I think you underestimating the work required for loco-swaps, even British Rail moved towards DVTs. Loco-swaps at Coventry and whatnot just cannot happen on what's now a much busier network. Particularly compared to pressing some buttons in a bi-mode vehicle.
It isn’t 100% trivial and can’t be done by 1 driver etc, but my understanding is that loco changes at Coventry were done clear of the station, where there are still 3 tracks feeding into 1 for the purpose and now instead you have a large part of the stretched Voyager fleet running under the wires between Piccadilly, Coventry and Bromsgrove as well as on the ECML, which affects its environmental impact and ability to adequately provide capacity on the unelectrified lines it was built for, rather than allowing the same vehicles to be used with both traction types, without dragging a load of dead weight around when under the wires.
Well given that freight traffic is dominated by low speed high tractive effort opeations, there is very limited scope for "mixed traffic locomotives" in the modern world.
Which is why only DRS has attempted to buy any since the Class 67 debacle, and the Class 68s have not proven at all succesful with actual freight operations.
To suggest that mixed traffic locomotives, on a mixed traffic railway have no place in a modern world in which the railway must regain most of the freight traffic which it lost to the roads following the Second World War in order to achieve the necessary decarbonisation aims, when it must be assisted by governments to achieve this, does not bode well.

I do believe the 68s have been more successful than the 88s, which are not mixed traffic and I note that the 67s, which achieve 110mph north of Crewe are more suitable for the Manchester - Cardiff run than the 150s and 153s which can still appear.
As for acceleration, it really does matter, because it reduces journey times for passengers.
As for maintenance costs.... who do you think pays for the railway?

As for motors on container wagons.... it has been done in japan, no fundamental reason it could not be done here if it came down to it.
Yes acceleration matters. When on a mixed traffic railway you have improved the acceleration of the passenger service with the provision of EMUs, but not done the same for freight which remains loco hauled, all you have achieved is to reduce the capacity of your railway by increasing the speed differential between passengers and freight, squeezing more of both onto the roads.

If you aren’t going to put motors on container wagons, allowing the containers themselves to contribute to adhesive weight, then you might as well use the same locos to haul both passengers and freight and when you still have heavy freight on your railway, you can’t reduce track maintenance by running EMUs.
Because BR had a huge supply of ancient loco hauled stock and locomotives lying around to do the job?
That supply doesn't exist, given that it has mostly been converted into food tins and razorblades by now.
BR’s loco hauled fleet wasn’t always ancient, but does the fact that it was able to provide a huge amount of capacity in a way that subsequent DMU fleets haven’t not illustrate anything?

I am aware that this can’t be brought back from baked bean tins.
Well the demise of catering has nothing to do with multiple units and everything to do with its terrible economics.
As for incompatible standards, that is again to do with the modern insanity of the railway industry, not a fundamental limit on the multiple unit concept.
Essentially every EMU from the PEPs through to privatisation had fundamentally the same multiple working specification.

There were minor variations but everything that wasn't late built Mark 1 (or the 5WES, built from Mark 1 parts) used fundamentally the same one.
Indeed EMU multiple unit control was far more standardised than locomotive multiple unit control!
I genuinely can’t understand why catering wouldn’t be profitable, given the 21st century ubiquity of ‘meal deal’ sandwiches, which are sold in every shop in Britain, but the slightest suggestion that these could ever be sold affordably on board trains and all hell breaks loose with the attacks on BR’s former catering efforts.

The same goes for hotels. These still very much exist and remain popular with guests and profitable for their owners, but should the railway have anything to do with them, or the taxpayer, then it’s the worst form of evil that has ever existed and the entire rail network must be closed down immediately for touching anything to do with hotels, or sandwiches…

As well designed as the PEPs were, it was quite bad that they broke the earlier multiple working specification, but you can’t tell me that as EMU designs such as the PEP became the accepted norm for trains following the 1970s and that these didn’t include catering, this didn’t influence the attitude that trains shouldn’t include catering.
But those bookings are not economically rational traffic for the railway to be taking.
You have to keep paths lying around to use for special occasions, rather than just running a service train all day every day.
It should probably be the case that all lines should have at least a certain percentage of spare capacity, rather than running everything so tightly that if a single train sees a few minutes delay, the whole thing falls over within a 100+ mile radius, the idea being that the railways are to see growth with a modal shift from road and that service can always be increased immediately without having to wait for infrastructure intervention, although this would always have to catch up to provide spare capacity in the long term. Spare paths are already required on every line for an extent to run RHTTs and similar.

You can’t run service trains empty, all day every day, but not run anything when the demand is, otherwise ridership just hits an upper ceiling where no more passengers can physically be accommodated, which arguably has already happened on half the network.

If more people than normal need to go to a particular place on any given day, but the railways are completely full, how are they supposed to do it?
 
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BR’s loco hauled fleet wasn’t always ancient, but does the fact that it was able to provide a huge amount of capacity in a way that subsequent DMU fleets haven’t n
but you can’t tell me that as EMU designs such as the PEP became the accepted norm for trains following the 1970s and that these didn’t include catering, this didn’t influence the attitude that trains shouldn’t include catering.
You just taking numerous examples of the modern trend towards economising everything and you are blaming it on multiple units. Multiple units where part of that trend too, not a cause of it. Some aspects of this trend have had negative long term effects, but not all of it. We shouldn't be luddites and demand everything go back to how it was in the 70s.

As for motors on container wagons.... it has been done in japan, no fundamental reason it could not be done here if it came down to it.
The MPV , which is currently used by network rail as leafblower , is a product of a German attempt at doing it
 
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eldomtom2

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I would suggest that the reason for the almost total extinction of LHCS in this country (but notably not others)
I can't think of a single country where the trend isn't towards multiple units - and the UK uses more loco-hauled stock than some countries; Japan has no loco-hauled stock in non-heritage service!
 

Bletchleyite

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With regard to reforming sets ad hoc, you can do that with Class 15x DMUs (except at TOCs who have replaced the internal couplings with bar couplers) but not with Mk5a stock. These are basically like 4-TCs - fixed formation unpowered MUs.

I can see benefits in UIC style independent LHCS vehicles but the UK has never really gone for this, even in Mk1 days - you always needed a brake, at least.
 

HSTEd

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To suggest that mixed traffic locomotives, on a mixed traffic railway have no place in a modern world in which the railway must regain most of the freight traffic which it lost to the roads following the Second World War in order to achieve the necessary decarbonisation aims, when it must be assisted by governments to achieve this, does not bode well.
It's unlikely that the railway could absorb enough freight operations to meaningfully impact decarbonisation (if road does it we are fine, if it does not we are toast either way).
But even making that assumption, its likely that freight operations would show better economics from a fleet of high tractive effort Co-Co freight locomotives.

That sort of performance profile, heavy locomotive with lots of axles, isn't really amenable to competitive passenger operations.
I do believe the 68s have been more successful than the 88s, which are not mixed traffic and I note that the 67s, which achieve 110mph north of Crewe are more suitable for the Manchester - Cardiff run than the 150s and 153s which can still appear.
The Class 67s will likely get hammered by negative differential speed limits however, so its not clear if they could ever match the Sprinters in journey time! Much less ~100mph class Turbostar type units.
And being more succesful than the Class 88 is hardly a high bar! Once again, a locomotive ordered only by DRS.

We are finally seeing the first proper freight electric ordered since privatisation, and its the Class 99.
And it's a CoCo!

Yes acceleration matters. When on a mixed traffic railway you have improved the acceleration of the passenger service with the provision of EMUs, but not done the same for freight which remains loco hauled, all you have achieved is to reduce the capacity of your railway by increasing the speed differential between passengers and freight, squeezing more of both onto the roads.
On the other hand, if you restrict the performance of passenger train to maximise capacity you will have tonnes of extra capacity.... because you will be fundamentally unable to run a competitive passenger service.

WOrsening journey times to the degree that the adoption of dual purpose locomotives (or at least ones capable of economic freight operations) for a significant portion of passenger operatiosn would require would result in major losses of traffic and worsening of overall carbon emissions.
It would easily swamp any gains from improved capacity.

If you aren’t going to put motors on container wagons, allowing the containers themselves to contribute to adhesive weight, then you might as well use the same locos to haul both passengers and freight and when you still have heavy freight on your railway, you can’t reduce track maintenance by running EMUs.

BR’s loco hauled fleet wasn’t always ancient, but does the fact that it was able to provide a huge amount of capacity in a way that subsequent DMU fleets haven’t not illustrate anything?
It was able to provide that capacity because BR had a surfeit of locomotives due to decreasing traffic, especially for freight.
It would never have been able to justify actually buying its vast surplus fleet of Class 20s et al and Mark 1s (and before them, piles of prenationalisation stock) based on how it was using them in the 1980s!

It was a one off bonus that will never be repeated.
I genuinely can’t understand why catering wouldn’t be profitable, given the 21st century ubiquity of ‘meal deal’ sandwiches, which are sold in every shop in Britain, but the slightest suggestion that these could ever be sold affordably on board trains and all hell breaks loose with the attacks on BR’s former catering efforts.
Because fixed establishments can generate far higher footfall, remain open longer and have far lower effective "rents" than trying to do it on a train.
You simply can't serve meals fast enough, to enough people, to amortise your fixed staffing and opportunity costs (all the seats that could be where your catering is).

The only way it could be sold affordably to passengers is huge subsidies or paying the staff far below the going rate for their labour.

If more people than normal need to go to a particular place on any given day, but the railways are completely full, how are they supposed to do it?
They can crush load the train, or they can find an alternative route.
We can't afford to maintain the vast overcapacity you suggest to cater to one off events.
 
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Energy

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The motor bogie of an EMU may not affect floor height compared to a trailer bogie, but accommodating an underfloor Diesel engine does. Stadler’s low floor DEMUs (which I am a fan of) have a power car taking up platform length, but it is clever how the area below the floor is taken up by the fuel tank.

Most EMUs have unpowered vehicles, but most DMUs do not and would be underpowered otherwise.
Yes, using DEMUs and placing engines elsewhere is likely to be the future as more vehicles move to bimode as well. But this isn't a return to loco-hauled.
It isn’t 100% trivial and can’t be done by 1 driver etc, but my understanding is that loco changes at Coventry were done clear of the station, where there are still 3 tracks feeding into 1 for the purpose and now instead you have a large part of the stretched Voyager fleet running under the wires between Piccadilly, Coventry and Bromsgrove as well as on the ECML, which affects its environmental impact and ability to adequately provide capacity on the unelectrified lines it was built for, rather than allowing the same vehicles to be used with both traction types, without dragging a load of dead weight around when under the wires.
That doesn't address how it would be done now, Coventry is a much busier station. Carrying around the engines isn't ideal but the weight isn't that much compared to the rest of the train.
I do believe the 68s have been more successful than the 88s, which are not mixed traffic and I note that the 67s, which achieve 110mph north of Crewe are more suitable for the Manchester - Cardiff run than the 150s and 153s which can still appear.
Are the 67s particularly suitable or just available? The TfW loco-hauled services have their stock as a political choice to make them more premium, otherwise they'd be fine running on 197s.
I genuinely can’t understand why catering wouldn’t be profitable, given the 21st century ubiquity of ‘meal deal’ sandwiches, which are sold in every shop in Britain, but the slightest suggestion that these could ever be sold affordably on board trains and all hell breaks loose with the attacks on BR’s former catering efforts.
The 'rent' is much higher.

LNER has already gone this direction, with the galley/kitchen for first class serving proper meals, for those willing to pay, and the standard class shop selling meal deal items, though with an option for a hot drink.

For LNER the shop can probably pay for its staff and it's worth charging itself zero/very little rent as the customers it drawers to the railway are worth it. However, this wouldn't be worth it on a shorter journey.

This isn't particularly relevant to loco-hauled vs multiple units, LNER offer this on its 800/801s.
If more people than normal need to go to a particular place on any given day, but the railways are completely full, how are they supposed to do it?
They take a coach, as most large groups do. The railway is rarely end-to-end and I can't see the draw to the railway if they need a coach to get to the station. The railway has a big enough market and untapped demand, it needs to work on it rather than a new market it will struggle to compete with.
The Class 67s will likely get hammered by negative differential speed limits however, so its not clear if they could ever match the Sprinters in journey time! Much less ~100mph class Turbostar type units.
And being more succesful than the Class 88 is hardly a high bar! Once again, a locomotive ordered only by DRS.

We are finally seeing the first proper freight electric ordered since privatisation, and its the Class 99.
And it's a CoCo!
The 67s, 68s and 88s (and possibly 93s...) prove that a loco that can do freight well and passenger well isn't realistic. 7 out of 30 67s are currently in storage.
They can crush load the train, or they can find an alternative route.
We can't afford to maintain the vast overcapacity you suggest to cater to one off events.
We do get extra stock out for events at Wembley and elsewhere, Chiltern plans it maintenance to be done at another time so it can get more 168s out.
 

HSTEd

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The 67s, 68s and 88s (and possibly 93s...) prove that a loco that can do freight well and passenger well isn't realistic. 7 out of 30 67s are currently in storage
The closest British railways have come is probably the Class 89. A 125mph CoCo locomotive, but ultimately an experiment that was not repeated. In any case she was too light to really generate freight levels of tractive effort.

However, long live the flying Badger!
 

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