London Buses Discussion

[MotCO]

The Enviro100EV is designed for such routes, I don't know if they'll be available by then

I'd forgotten about those. There's also the Mellor Sigma range.

 

[busesrusuk]

WVL 493 is one.

SL6 and SL8 buses have had route numbers added to livery recently.

Had a look at the SL6 (X68) today and none of the buses I saw had the route umber on the side, Pic here of one if interested:

GAL EH223 Aug23

Bayliss Road, Waterloo. Aug 2023

www.flickr.com

There were 7 of the SL6 branded buses parked up in Waterloo this afternoon, so assume they are using the base as a layover point during the day. Presumably the base has more space during the daytime with the withdrawal of the Red Arrow routes...

 

[Notchapple]

A couple of points on your post. Its interesting that the extra buses have retained dual doors and presumably are not fitted with additional luggage racks. Also of note is that the branded buses have the route number prominently displayed unlike the previous two routes (unless they have recently been added).

TFL are planning to install luggage racks on the extra buses(Source)

Luggage racks are not mandated on route X26/SL7. However, it is intended to install luggage racks on the additional buses required for the frequency increase to be introduced later in the year. There are no current plans to increase the hours of operation.

Go Ahead London are in talks with ADL about the retrofit, they're trying to find a suitable layout that would allow them to retain the rear doors.

 

[MotCO]

TFL are planning to install luggage racks on the extra buses(Source)
GAL are in talks with ADL about the retrofit, they're trying to find a suitable layout that would allow them to retain the rear doors.

The FoI question also referred to Hybrid buses being introduced later - is this confirmed?

I'm surprised that GAL are looking to ADL to adapt Wright buses, given that they have an 'in-house' facility at Hants & Dorset.

 

[busesrusuk]

The FoI question also referred to Hybrid buses being introduced later - is this confirmed?

I'm surprised that GAL are looking to ADL to adapt Wright buses, given that they have an 'in-house' facility at Hants & Dorset.

Not really, ADL's are used quite often. When we painted LT50 and 60, both were done by ADL at Harlow..

 

[Notchapple]

The FoI question also referred to Hybrid buses being introduced later - is this confirmed?

I'm surprised that GAL are looking to ADL to adapt Wright buses, given that they have an 'in-house' facility at Hants & Dorset.

Hybrids would be introduced for the new contract as TFL said there are no suitable EVs for the route, I can't find the PDF as it was a few months back.

The Route 80 WHVs are currently being refurbed at ADL.

 

[MasterSpenny]

The FoI question also referred to Hybrid buses being introduced later - is this confirmed?

I'm surprised that GAL are looking to ADL to adapt Wright buses, given that they have an 'in-house' facility at Hants & Dorset.

I think Hants & Dorset are busier with the New Routemaster refurbs, other companies such as Thornton Brothers seem to be doing the conventional Metroline buses

Extras have started going on it, WVL492 - X26. According to LVF (lvf.io) it’s interestingly listed as withdrawn - disregard it being withdrawn, its tracking as a 0

 

[MotCO]

Hybrids would be introduced for the new contract as TFL said there are no suitable EVs for the route, I can't find the PDF as it was a few months back.

The Route 80 WHVs are currently being refurbed at ADL.

Are the route 80 WHVs going to be deployed on the X26? I thought they were going to use route 101 WVLs. It would make sense to refurb/adapt WHVs so that if Metrobus retain the contract, half the buses would be compliant from day one with the costs already sunk.

 

[Notchapple]

Are the route 80 WHVs going to be deployed on the X26? I thought they were going to use route 101 WVLs. It would make sense to refurb/adapt WHVs so that if Metrobus retain the contract, half the buses would be compliant from day one with the costs already sunk.

No they aren't, I mentioned it as you were surprised GAL were going to ADL instead of H&D

 

[MasterSpenny]

The chargers at Camberwell for 40 and 185 done

https://x.com/go_ahead_london/status/1691694744965873988?s=46&t=NwCcaynuPR-k7xjMa0OtGQ

‘In advance of new e-buses being introduced at Camberwell Garage on Routes 40 and 185 over the coming months, we continue to make good progress installing the all-important electrical infrastructure.

Chris McKeown, Go-Ahead London's Engineering Director said: "Like many of our other locations, Camberwell is skilfully converting to a carbon-free future. The recent installation of additional chargers at the garage was a key milestone and I thank the local team for maintaining service quality during essential upgrade works."

Richard Harrington, Go-Ahead Group Engineering Director and Head of its Zero-Emission (ZE) Centre of Excellence added: "2023 is proving to be a transformative one for Go-Ahead London's e-bus fleet, which is in the process of doubling from 300 at the start of this year to 600 by the end of it. Camberwell is one of multiple ZE schemes currently being developed by Go-Ahead in the capital and it reinforces the company's position as the UK's premier e-bus operator."

We are London's largest bus company and a part of @TheGoAheadGroup, an international provider of passenger transport.’
(Quote button isn’t on my screen when posting for whatever reason)

 

[MotCO]

No they aren't, I mentioned it as you were surprised GAL were going to ADL instead of H&D

In which case, why aren't hybrids being adapted and refurbed for the X26 so that if Metrobus retain the contract, half the buses would be already done and paid for? If the cost of the adaptation and refurb are the same whether the bus is hybrid or not, surely it makes more sense to do a hybrid.

 

[Goldfish62]

In which case, why aren't hybrids being adapted and refurbed for the X26 so that if Metrobus retain the contract, half the buses would be already done and paid for? If the cost of the adaptation and refurb are the same whether the bus is hybrid or not, surely it makes more sense to do a hybrid.

GoAhead will undoubtedly want the flexibility to keep their surplus hybrids for general tender bids.

 

[Mikey C]

Have they considered hydrogen buses for some of the longer routes like the X26/SL7?

 

[busesrusuk]

Have they considered hydrogen buses for some of the longer routes like the X26/SL7?

I thought about Hydrogen but then Heathrow maybe a bit nervous having what many perceive to be a mobile bomb driving under their runway 8 times an hour for most of the day(!).

I wonder if op charging might get electric vehicles over the line as hybrids seem to have a very limited lifespan without very expensive refurbishment/replacement of batteries. Of course. outside of TfL land, buses would be likely to be to a very high spec for what should be a premium service - buses such as the long wheelbase E400's similar to the Transdev Witchway buses giving plenty of space. What we do know is that TfL are highly unlikely to buy diesels however much sense they may make (Reading Green Line anyone?).

I suspect that the contract for this route will be keenly contested with a number of operators with operating bases that would be suitable to operate the service. Just my thoughts ...

 

[Goldfish62]

I thought about Hydrogen but then Heathrow maybe a bit nervous having what many perceive to be a mobile bomb driving under their runway 8 times an hour for most of the day(!).

I wonder if op charging might get electric vehicles over the line as hybrids seem to have a very limited lifespan without very expensive refurbishment/replacement of batteries. Of course. outside of TfL land, buses would be likely to be to a very high spec for what should be a premium service - buses such as the long wheelbase E400's similar to the Transdev Witchway buses giving plenty of space. What we do know is that TfL are highly unlikely to buy diesels however much sense they may make (Reading Green Line anyone?).

I suspect that the contract for this route will be keenly contested with a number of operators with operating bases that would be suitable to operate the service. Just my thoughts ...

The one certainty is that there will be no new diesel or hybrid buses. That is a commitment made by the Mayor and TfL (in line with similar commitments made by National Express and First).

 

[Mikey C]

I thought about Hydrogen but then Heathrow maybe a bit nervous having what many perceive to be a mobile bomb driving under their runway 8 times an hour for most of the day(!).

I wonder if op charging might get electric vehicles over the line as hybrids seem to have a very limited lifespan without very expensive refurbishment/replacement of batteries. Of course. outside of TfL land, buses would be likely to be to a very high spec for what should be a premium service - buses such as the long wheelbase E400's similar to the Transdev Witchway buses giving plenty of space. What we do know is that TfL are highly unlikely to buy diesels however much sense they may make (Reading Green Line anyone?).

I suspect that the contract for this route will be keenly contested with a number of operators with operating bases that would be suitable to operate the service. Just my thoughts ...

Hydrogen buses are either safe, or aren't safe. There aren't rules saying that they can't go past schools or vulnerable infrastructure elsewhere, and I imagine lorries will start using hydrogen power soon, where they need better range than batteries can provide.

 

[busesrusuk]

Hydrogen buses are either safe, or aren't safe. There aren't rules saying that they can't go past schools or vulnerable infrastructure elsewhere, and I imagine lorries will start using hydrogen power soon, where they need better range than batteries can provide.

You are right about hydrogen being safe or unsafe but in some cases perception is everything and it will only take one high profile incident to focus minds. My understanding is that the buses need to be parked in the open and not undercover whilst certain gasses are banned in road tunnels (not sure if that includes Hydrogen). It will be interesting to see how the first hydrogen buses perform in Hong Kong and whether or not they are restricted in any way.

As for hydrogen lorries, it seems that they may well be a long way off. A friend of mine who works for a global gas company with a huge distribution network both here in the UK and across the world (and has been involved in studies into how his UK distribution network could be converted) believes that hydrogen powered lorries are just not practical as the amount of space required for storage (and thus a decent range) makes them impractical. I got the impression that they would not be a practical proposition for long distance heavy haulage. More than happy to be correctd in that but he does know his beans so to speak..

 

[AlbertBeale]

You are right about hydrogen being safe or unsafe but in some cases perception is everything and it will only take one high profile incident to focus minds. My understanding is that the buses need to be parked in the open and not undercover whilst certain gasses are banned in road tunnels (not sure if that includes Hydrogen). It will be interesting to see how the first hydrogen buses perform in Hong Kong and whether or not they are restricted in any way.

As for hydrogen lorries, it seems that they may well be a long way off. A friend of mine who works for a global gas company with a huge distribution network both here in the UK and across the world (and has been involved in studies into how his UK distribution network could be converted) believes that hydrogen powered lorries are just not practical as the amount of space required for storage (and thus a decent range) makes them impractical. I got the impression that they would not be a practical proposition for long distance heavy haulage. More than happy to be correctd in that but he does know his beans so to speak..

It's good to see the English language getting less vegetable-specific!

 

[GusB]

Whether or not hydrogen buses are safe, this line of discussion really ought to be in a separate thread. Please stay on topic. Thanks

 

[MasterSpenny]

Next two, also taken from BLOTW (buslistsontheweb.co.uk)

ES047 - LV23ZCU
ES048 - LV23ZCX

Just one more left, this one taken from BLOTW (buslistsontheweb.co.uk) as usual:
ES049 - LV23ZCY

New kit Ee192 reported at Q with registration LB23PGE. However, it is likely it is going to be replaced by a 73 plate as that plate is not registered as of yet. Is this the first of the batch for route 40?
Source:

Go-Ahead London | The Bus Forum

507/521 when is the date next month, contracts renewend.

tangytango.proboards.com

 

[H&I]

Why do many London buses sound and feel like they have a manual transmission? These buses won't accelerate when changing gears.

 

[TWBG]

Yes, there are some interesting points. Firstly, all are for new electric buses - at least 86 buses in total. And some earlier comments sugggest that AD's order book is quite full, so I wonder who will supply them? Wright and Volvo BZL must be in with a shout. Maybe the new Yutong double decker for Abellio's 306?
Also, there are some small single deckers - currently the 379 is with 8.8 mtr Streetlites and S3 with 9.0 mtr E200s. What electric vehicles can replace them? Solo EVs seem to be the only bus of that size.


Yes, I noticed that. Maybe a sign that the existing buses are all getting too old to support a 7 year contract, and there are insufficient buses to redeploy from other routes.

the 379 could be getting [8.7m] Optare Metrocity EVs coded as 45008-10 and the S3 coded as 1025-34. The 306 could be getting Electroliners coded as 3087-97 or something else

It is possible that Metroline will get Volvo BZLs for their single deck routes and Wright Electroliners for their double deck routes; the Metrodeckers are unreliable following the fire at Potter Bar in May 2022.

Abellio, Metroline and Stagecoach might have stopped ordering from ADL.

 

[MasterSpenny]

Forgot to post this one, but from London Veichle Finder (lvf.io):
Route 40
Ee187 - LB23PFU
Ee188 - LB23PFV
Ee189 - LB23PFX
Ee190 - LB23PFY
Ee191 - LB23PFZ
Ee192 - LB23PGE
Ee193 - LB23PGF
Ee194 - LB23PGK
Ee195 - LB23PGO
Ee196 - LB23PGU
Ee197 - LB23PGV
Ee198 - LB23PGX
Ee199 - LB23PGY
Ee200 - LB23PGZ
Ee201 - LB23PHA
Ee202 - LB23PHF
Ee203 - LB23PHJ
Ee204 - LB23PHK

Tweet on X26 renumbering. WVL490 was the first bus ever on the SL7

https://twitter.com/Go_Ahead_London/status/1692785500401107327?s=20

Route SL7 (limited stops between Croydon and Heathrow Airport) joined Transport for London's (TfL) Superloop express bus network at 0354 today when Keith Wooller departed Croydon Garage (photos taken a few minutes earlier in an area of the building that was pro-actively managed to maintain safety). Previously the X26, Route SL7 has been designed by TfL to improve Outer London connectivity and it remains the capital's longest, at just under 24 miles (in each direction). David Cutts, Go-Ahead London's Managing Director said: "The SL7 is a welcome addition to London's comprehensive bus system and it joins a growing number of Superloop services offering a value for money alternative to private transport. SL7 users will benefit from a timetable that doubles in frequency and, over the coming months, an enhanced journey experience as USB chargers are fitted to existing vehicles. Congratulations to the local Croydon team and TfL for seamlessly introducing it this morning." We are London's largest bus company and a part of
@TheGoAheadGroup
, an international provider of passenger transport.

Given that TfL persuaded Sullivans to stop bidding, next week the JFS contracts pass to Uno and 626 back to Metroline in two weeks, the following will happen to the OmniCitys:
DS50, 53, 56, 58-62 and 64 - going to a dealer
DS57 and 63 - have already been disposed of
DS55 - ???
DS51-52 and 54 - going in February
The 626 enviros are look to be retained as spares, E60-62 are going to commercial once the TfL equipment is removed
Source for all of this information:

Sullivan Buses | The Bus Forum

As its now only just over a month to Sullivan's re-entering the London bus market with the 298 and the 628 653 683 and 688 also transferring to them in September too. I'm wondering what everyon

tangytango.proboards.com

 

[MotCO]

Route SL7 started yesterday, and timetables are available here http://www.londonbusroutes.net/times/SL07.htm#1_C

Curiously, a number of buses start from New Malden (Fountain) to head towards Heathrow, but there are no short workings from Heathrow. Are these run empty from Croydon depot? Would it make sense to be operated by a garage that is closer, such as Merton?

 

[Notchapple]

Route SL7 started yesterday, and timetables are available here http://www.londonbusroutes.net/times/SL07.htm#1_C

Curiously, a number of buses start from New Malden (Fountain) to head towards Heathrow, but there are no short workings from Heathrow. Are these run empty from Croydon depot? Would it make sense to be operated by a garage that is closer, such as Merton?

Yes they are ran empty from Croydon. It wouldn't as that would mean at the end of the duty, the bus has to run dead from West Croydon to AL which takes away the 'advantage' of running those duties from AL as the total dead mileage is 10 miles when ran from either garage.

 

[talldave]

Tried SL7 on Saturday, full route, to Heathrow and then back after some plane spotting with my son. Some observations:

The TfL route maps (https://tfl.gov.uk/bus/route/sl7/) are wrong. They show a detour off the A232 between Croydon and Beddington. Why? Were they wrong in X26 form?

The repeated "driver is waiting here to even out the service" pauses at every other stop are infuriating. As a result the journey to Heathrow took 2 hours, whereas the return journey without any waits was 1hr 40m.

Info screens at Heathrow Central still refer to X26.

You can get a Hopper fare to Heathrow but not coming back. Surely the back office algorithm could be modified with a "if previous tap-in = SL7" exception?

 

[Deerfold]

You can get a Hopper fare to Heathrow but not coming back. Surely the back office algorithm could be modified with a "if previous tap-in = SL7" exception?

Thar depends where you're going, but there's plenty of examples where a long journey followed by a short journey won't get a hopper fare, but one the other way round will.

 

[MotCO]

Thar depends where you're going, but there's plenty of examples where a long journey followed by a short journey won't get a hopper fare, but one the other way round will.

Presumably because the Hopper fare requires the second tap-in to be done within 60 minutes (approx). If the long journey is over 60 minutes, the Hopper fare won't cut in.

 

[Farningham]

Tried SL7 on Saturday, full route, to Heathrow and then back after some plane spotting with my son. Some observations:

The TfL route maps (https://tfl.gov.uk/bus/route/sl7/) are wrong. They show a detour off the A232 between Croydon and Beddington. Why? Were they wrong in X26 form?

The repeated "driver is waiting here to even out the service" pauses at every other stop are infuriating. As a result the journey to Heathrow took 2 hours, whereas the return journey without any waits was 1hr 40m.

Info screens at Heathrow Central still refer to X26.

You can get a Hopper fare to Heathrow but not coming back. Surely the back office algorithm could be modified with a "if previous tap-in = SL7" exception?

It was not uncommon for the X26 to use the deviation via Plough Lane, Wallington, to leave/rejoin the A232 at Beddington when there was traffic congestion around the Purley Way shops at Waddon, so SL7 will surely do the same. Strange that this has been mapped as the normal route though. Flexibilty to use alternate routes was one reason given why a stop would not be provided at Beddington 'Plough' when the X26 replaced the 726.

 

[MasterSpenny]

From London bus net (londonbusroutes.net), route SL9. The same site on the service changes page shows the 698 crosslink is being removed, does this mean something? Or is it just to ensure a non Superloop branded bus goes on it?

Service changes

londonbusroutes.net

New number for route X140. New timetable to improve reliability with PVR changed to 12, and cross-linking from route 698 removed.

Timetable:

http://www.londonbusroutes.net/times/SL09full.pdf