Longest wait for a Rail Replacement Bus?

[Mugby]

The line to Skegness is closed this weekend (27/28 Apr) between Sleaford and Boston for engineering work, buses replace trains between those points.

I have the misfortune to be returning from Skeggy on Sunday and in my experience the 1215 service to Nottingham is usually a popular departure. On Sunday, the 1215 terminates at Boston at 1249 and onward passengers then wait an hour and a half for the replacement bus to Sleaford.
The reason for this, I guess, is that there isn't a 1315 departure from Skegness on Sundays in the normal timetable, therefore if the bus ran earlier, there wouldn't be a scheduled service from Sleaford to Nottingham to complete the journey.

It's a bit much though, having to hang around in Boston for that length of time on what looks like being a cold, wet and miserable Sunday!

 

[dk1]

I’m not sure if Boston would be any better on a scorching hot summers day to be honest. The Moon Under Water Wetherspoons doesn’t look too far away from the station and is required so I know what I would do in that spare hour or so.

 

[30907]

I’m not sure if Boston would be any better on a scorching hot summers day to be honest.

I recall it being a pleasant town with a Stump to climb, docks and other interesting bits - but it's 40 years since I last went there

The Moon Under Water Wetherspoons doesn’t look too far away from the station and is required so I know what I would do in that spare hour or so.

I would travel an hour earlier to reach my destination at the normal time.

BTW there is an identical 85-min wait going to Skegness (off the 0950 ex Nottingham).

 

[dk1]

I recall it being a pleasant town with a Stump to climb, docks and other interesting bits - but it's 40 years since I last went there

Funny you say that it’s around that long since I did. I bought a TOTP LP whilst there on a school trip. It was so cheap & when getting home and playing it I was so disappointed as none of the tracks where the original artists Ive only passed through the station on the way to/from Skeggy ever since.

 

[Mugby]

I've decided! I'm going to get the Stagecoach bus 56 from Skegness to Lincoln, then the train from Lincoln to Nottingham.
There's a bit of a wait in Lincoln but at least it's only one bus and one train to get!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

A similar situation occurred recently with the Crewe - Derby service. Buses ran as though the only travel need to be met is for through passengers Crewe - Derby. The RRB's ran to connect with the train at Uttoxeter, so the next to last RRB ran much earlier than normal in order to make the train at Uttoxeter, then there was a massive gap until the time of the normal last train which ran as a bus all the way through to Derby. This was on a Saturday and effectively there was no evening service for intermediate stations. Crewe to Stoke-on-Trent is served by London West Midland Northwestern Railway (or whatever) but the section between Stoke-on-Trent and Uttoxeter has no alternative service, not even a normal bus. I guess those people are unimportant.

 

[30907]

A similar situation occurred recently with the Crewe - Derby service. Buses ran as though the only travel need to be met is for through passengers Crewe - Derby. The RRB's ran to connect with the train at Uttoxeter, so the next to last RRB ran much earlier than normal in order to make the train at Uttoxeter, then there was a massive gap until the time of the normal last train which ran as a bus all the way through to Derby.

It's pretty standard practice to delay the last RRB until the normal last train time, for obvious reasons - or it was back in the day.
How big was the massive gap?.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

It's pretty standard practice to delay the last RRB until the normal last train time, for obvious reasons - or it was back in the day.
How big was the massive gap?.

Well, that depends how you look at it.
The train is, or ought to be, hourly with a slightly longer gap before the last train of the day.
The rail replacement buses require an extra hour to get from Crewe to Uttoxeter to give an arrival in Derby at the usual time.
CORRECTION, on the Saturday the buses were running the full route Crewe to Derby, taking 146 minutes instead of the usual 71 minutes.

departures from Stoke-on-Trent towards Derby
		COVID still cancelled!
usual train departure	1733	1833	1934	2034	2151
RRB equivalent	1640		1843	1942		2224

Saturday 6 April	RRB	equivalent train	x	RRB	equivalent train	RRB	equivalent train	equivalent train	RRB
Crewe	1551	1710	1810	1746	1910	1845	2010	2127	2127
Alsager	1607	1719	1819	1802	1919	1901	2019	2136	2143
Kidsgrove	1623	1723	1823	1818	1923	1917	2023	2140	2159
Longport	..	..	..	1834	1929	1933	2029	2146	2215
Stoke-on-Trent	1640	1733	1833	1843	1934	1942	2034	2151	2224
Longton	1646	1739	1839	1849	1940	1948	2040	2157	2230
Blythe Bridge	1703	1746	1845	1906	1946	2005	2046	2203	2247
Uttoxeter	1724	1758	1857	1927	1959	2026	2059	2216	2308
Tutbury & Hatton	1740	1808	1907	1943	2008	2042	2108	2225	2324
Peartree	..	..	1919	..	..	..	..	..	..
Derby	1815	1821	1919	2018	2021	2117	2121	2239	2359

 

[30907]

Thanks. That is indeed a long gap, whatever part of the journey you look at.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Thanks. That is indeed a long gap, whatever part of the journey you look at.

I did realise though, after initially posting, that those circumstances were not the same as what @Mugby was discussing, where there is a long wait between the train and connecting bus at Boston. Normally a passenger on the 1215 ex Skegness would arrive in Nottingham at 1422.

	train	train
Skegness	1115​	1215​
Boston	1149​	1249​
	bus		bus
Boston	1214​	-->	1414​
Sleaford	1305​		1505​
	train		train
Sleaford	1315​		1515​
Nottingham	1422​		1624​

 

[43055]

I did realise though, after initially posting, that those circumstances were not the same as what @Mugby was discussing, where there is a long wait between the train and connecting bus at Boston. Normally a passenger on the 1215 ex Skegness would arrive in Nottingham at 1422.

	train	train
Skegness	1115​	1215​
Boston	1149​	1249​
	bus		bus
Boston	1214​	-->	1414​
Sleaford	1305​		1505​
	train		train
Sleaford	1315​		1515​
Nottingham	1422​		1624​

Looks like all they have done is split the service at Sleaford/Boston and just added the buses with connections at Sleaford with little thought at Boston. The 170 which arrived at 1149 didn't go out again until 1420 so in that time could of done a additional trip to fill the gap or even just move the 1215 back.

 

[Mugby]

Well, I left Skegness on the 1300 bus, service 56, which arrived in Lincoln at 1445. I then got the 1524 train to Nottingham, arriving at 1617.

I did actually see the 1624 arrival from Sleaford at Nottingham, there were very few people on it.

 

[greenline712]

Without trying to work out the full train timetable and RRB schedule . . . might it simply be that EMR were only able to source a finite number of RRBs, and ran the best possible service that they could? There's no point advertising a RRB journey if they know that it won't run.

This is symptomatic of the difficulties in sourcing sufficient RRBs in some areas . . . if the rates are too low, or drivers don't want to work on Sundays (both equally possible), then something has to give. Better to run first and last buses with certainty . . .

 

[30907]

Without trying to work out the full train timetable and RRB schedule . . . might it simply be that EMR were only able to source a finite number of RRBs, and ran the best possible service that they could? There's no point advertising a RRB journey if they know that it won't run.

This is symptomatic of the difficulties in sourcing sufficient RRBs in some areas . . . if the rates are too low, or drivers don't want to work on Sundays (both equally possible), then something has to give. Better to run first and last buses with certainty . . .

I suspect it is simpler: 1 train = 1 bus (plus duplicates if demand warrants it), no extra workings because that loses more money.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Without trying to work out the full train timetable and RRB schedule . . . might it simply be that EMR were only able to source a finite number of RRBs, and ran the best possible service that they could? There's no point advertising a RRB journey if they know that it won't run.

This is symptomatic of the difficulties in sourcing sufficient RRBs in some areas . . . if the rates are too low, or drivers don't want to work on Sundays (both equally possible), then something has to give. Better to run first and last buses with certainty . . .

In terms of the Crewe - Derby - Nottingham service, the RRB's connect at Derby into trains to Nottingham and out of trains from Nottingham. Everything else flows from that. There is normally an 0608 departure from Crewe, arriving Derby at 0724. So in order to meet that Derby connection the RRB departs Crewe at 0435, arriving Derby at 0715. This continues throughout the day until the next to last train at 2010 ex Crewe, arriving Derby at 2121 which is replaced by an RRB at 1845 ex Crewe, arriving Derby at 2117. The final service departs as usual at 2127 train / 2127 RRB so arrives much later into Derby 2359 instead of 2239. Thus there is a large gap from 1845 to 2127, instead of 2010 to 2127.

In the opposite direction the first arrival into Crewe is at 1030 instead of 0858 due to the departure from Derby being at 0745 train / 0754 bus. No earlier bus to give an arrival into Crewe around 0858.

There are the same number of RRB services as train services, just focused entirely upon Derby times rather than Crewe or Stoke-on-Trent times.

 

[NorthStaffs]

Slightly off topic but I see there’s no sign of the promised improvements foreseen by the EMR franchise award concerning the Sunday service on the Crewe Derby route. If anything it’s now even worse with Uttoxeter seeing trains from 3pm to 9pm plus the last train to Crewe. The reason given is the cost of an additional signallers shift for the 7 or so manned signal boxes on the route. Watching however a recent cab ride video of a train running from Toton westwards along the N.Staffs line I was surprised to see colour light signalling as well as semaphore. I guess as ever it’s the DFT and the lack of any political will.

 

[43055]

Slightly off topic but I see there’s no sign of the promised improvements foreseen by the EMR franchise award concerning the Sunday service on the Crewe Derby route. If anything it’s now even worse with Uttoxeter seeing trains from 3pm to 9pm plus the last train to Crewe. The reason given is the cost of an additional signallers shift for the 7 or so manned signal boxes on the route. Watching however a recent cab ride video of a train running from Toton westwards along the N.Staffs line I was surprised to see colour light signalling as well as semaphore. I guess as ever it’s the DFT and the lack of any political will.

Id rather have the 2 hour gaps filled first! There was talk about upgrading the North Staffs a number of years back but has all seem to have gone quiet now.

 

[30907]

Slightly off topic but I see there’s no sign of the promised improvements foreseen by the EMR franchise award concerning the Sunday service on the Crewe Derby route. If anything it’s now even worse with Uttoxeter seeing trains from 3pm to 9pm plus the last train to Crewe. The reason given is the cost of an additional signallers shift for the 7 or so manned signal boxes on the route. Watching however a recent cab ride video of a train running from Toton westwards along the N.Staffs line I was surprised to see colour light signalling as well as semaphore. I guess as ever it’s the DFT and the lack of any political will.

Colour lights can be - and often are - worked from manual boxes. Originally distant (pre WW2 I think on the LMS) but increasingly any signal that needs a replacement.
As you say, the DfT won't be willing to cover the cost (salary or capital).

 

[MCR247]

Slightly off topic but I see there’s no sign of the promised improvements foreseen by the EMR franchise award concerning the Sunday service on the Crewe Derby route. If anything it’s now even worse with Uttoxeter seeing trains from 3pm to 9pm plus the last train to Crewe. The reason given is the cost of an additional signallers shift for the 7 or so manned signal boxes on the route. Watching however a recent cab ride video of a train running from Toton westwards along the N.Staffs line I was surprised to see colour light signalling as well as semaphore. I guess as ever it’s the DFT and the lack of any political will.

Unfortunately, franchise commitments are effectively null and void at this point