Majority support higher road taxes to fund public transport services

[AndrewE]

Following the link on https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/spanish-regional-trains-too-big.243245/ I looked at another story:
https://eandt.theiet.org/content/ar...road-taxes-to-fund-public-transport-services/ which says

The majority of people would accept higher road taxes in order to fund a better-connected public transport system, according to a survey from Hitachi Rail.


Approximately 8,073 respondents were surveyed in summer 2022 in London, Washington D.C., Toronto, Paris, Dusseldorf, Turin, Dubai and Bangkok.
The survey found that three-quarters of people would prefer to choose a better-connected public transport system, rather than driving.
However, 48 per cent of people said they were sometimes deterred from using the services due to overcrowding. Cost, convenience and comfort were also identified as the biggest motivators to use public services.
73 per cent of respondents said they would be more likely to travel on public transport if they could see live information about crowding levels on services, rising to almost 9 in 10 people in Bangkok.
However, the move towards digitisation and adoption of apps presents barriers as well. Almost two-thirds (63 per cent) said they were put off from using public transport when they needed to use multiple different apps, with nearly of half people remaining unwilling to share their payment details with multiple travel apps.
This reticence was found to vary dramatically from country to country, with far lower trust in North America and the UK, compared to mainland Europe and Asia.

and lots more.
It struck me that the "majority" might have been across all the cities, and if you saw a national breakdown (and some UK data for places outside London - or Glasgow or Edinburgh) you might get a very different picture.

It also chimes in with the current discussion on the e-tickets thread (https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...se-for-the-elderly.242972/page-5#post-6067431)

 

[Ken H]

According to a survey by hitachi rail' .so some pollsters have done a poll and returned the answer the people paying for it asked for.
Read how to lie with statistics by Darrell Huff

 

[SynthD]

That’s a curious methodology. It’s close to meaningless for any one government to take as useful information.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Road taxes are a bad way to fund public transport because you have to avoid being too successful, other than as a pump primer. Ongoing general taxation - income tax and Council Tax - are the only sensible long term options.

 

[al78]

Some motorists already have an inflated sense of entitlement because they pay "road tax" (of which there is no such thing). The last thing we need is yet more inflation of entitlement on the roads.

 

[Horizon22]

Approximately 8,073 respondents were surveyed in summer 2022 in London, Washington D.C., Toronto, Paris, Dusseldorf, Turin, Dubai and Bangkok.

I am not surprised that residents of major urban metropolises were in favour. Try asking people in provincial towns and villages across the country and there may be different results.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Sounds like a pretty useless survey to me.

 

[E27007]

Some motorists already have an inflated sense of entitlement because they pay "road tax" (of which there is no such thing). The last thing we need is yet more inflation of entitlement on the roads.

How much is the "road tax" baseline from which those additiona will be based ? We had the situation where new cars were being taxed at £30 per annum, on the grounds of their green credentials, then in 2016 the truth emerged of defeat devices and unscrupulous manufaturers manipulating the testing regulations, far from clean and green those £30 / annum cars were no better than older cars taxed at five times the rate.

 

[Tom125]

I would never support more tax on road for rail. I’ve just taken my first Transport for Wales service in 6 months and the service is dismal (the reason I’ve been driving). Every other train on my line cancelled and full and standing and this is supposed to be south Wales “metro”.

 

[lachlan]

I would never support more tax on road for rail. I’ve just taken my first Transport for Wales service in 6 months and the service is dismal (the reason I’ve been driving). Every other train on my line cancelled and full and standing and this is supposed to be south Wales “metro”.

Increasing funding for public transport is exactly how you improve said service.

 

[mrcheek]

for those who are too young to remember, Sir Humphrey Appleby in Yes Prime Minister explained very well how these polls work:

Doubtless it would be easy for the AA or RAC to produce an opinion poll that said motorists supported abolishing the subsidy for rail, so that car tax could be reduced

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Increasing funding for public transport is exactly how you improve said service.

It's not exactly how you achieve that. There are ways of improving public transport without increasing funding.

 

[JonathanH]

There are ways of improving public transport without increasing funding.

Are there? Most interventions cost someone money.

 

[PeterC]

It's not exactly how you achieve that. There are ways of improving public transport without increasing funding.

Even if they do prove self funding in the medium / long term some money or at least a guarantee to cover any shortfall would be necessary

 

[lachlan]

Are there? Most interventions cost someone money.

Yes I was sitting wondering what these improvements would be too.

 

[edwin_m]

Road taxes are a bad way to fund public transport because you have to avoid being too successful, other than as a pump primer. Ongoing general taxation - income tax and Council Tax - are the only sensible long term options.

With car accounting for about 84% of UK passenger-km in 2019, we're a long way from having to worry about road taxes being a successful deterrent. With the sort of mode shift that would raise that concern, significant capital funding would be needed to expand rail capacity by a factor of several, but the extra fares revenue would probably make the transport network close to financially self-sustaining.

 

[LUYMun]

It seems that many here have fallen for the common misconception of "road taxes" which doesn't exist.

 

[gabrielhj07]

With car accounting for about 84% of UK passenger-km in 2019, we're a long way from having to worry about road taxes being a successful deterrent. With the sort of mode shift that would raise that concern, significant capital funding would be needed to expand rail capacity by a factor of several, but the extra fares revenue would probably make the transport network close to financially self-sustaining.

Road taxes cannot deter people from driving when there is no alternative.

 

[PGAT]

Road taxes cannot deter people from driving when there is no alternative.

I beg to differ. Most of the time there ARE alternatives that simply aren't used because they're less appealing or more expensive. Getting more people using public transport and direct funding from extra taxes would tremendously help improve services and bring costs down.

 

[gabrielhj07]

I beg to differ. Most of the time there ARE alternatives that simply aren't used because they're less appealing or more expensive. Getting more people using public transport and direct funding from extra taxes would tremendously help improve services and bring costs down.

Post 16 states that road travel makes up about 84% of passenger km in the UK. How much of that do you estimate runs alongside a suitable public transport alternative?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Road pricing is the way forward in my view, starting with the motorways. The technology exists - in Norway around Oslo and Bergen you are automatically invoiced to your AutoPASS account depending on the distance travelled and type of vehicle (petrol, electric, HGV etc). A tag is affixed to the windscreen to activate the sensors. Failure to have a tag means the licence plate is used instead and you pay a much higher rate. You can also choose to pay this way for the many car-ferries in the country.

In Greater Manchester and its hinterland the level of private-car commuting is absolutely ridiculous given the relatively good provision of public transport.
The M60 circular, instead of being part of the national strategic motorway network as intended, is just a commuter rat-run with many one junction journies. I would stop up a lot of the junctions, introduce road pricing and direct the surplus revenue to improving public transport as Oslo has done.

 

[edwin_m]

Road taxes cannot deter people from driving when there is no alternative.

Indeed, that alternative has to be there, and that means funding up front before the taxes are imposed, as Ken Livingstone did with the congestion charge. It also probably means predominantly buses and some trams much more than trains, because they are quicker as well as cheaper to implement.

I should also make clear I'm interpreting "road taxes" in a broad way to include congestion charges and similar measures that deter people who have to have a car from using it for an individual journey where there is a good alternative.

 

[Horizon22]

It's not exactly how you achieve that. There are ways of improving public transport without increasing funding.

Such as?

 

[E27007]

Indeed, that alternative has to be there, and that means funding up front before the taxes are imposed, as Ken Livingstone did with the congestion charge. It also probably means predominantly buses and some trams much more than trains, because they are quicker as well as cheaper to implement.

I should also make clear I'm interpreting "road taxes" in a broad way to include congestion charges and similar measures that deter people who have to have a car from using it for an individual journey where there is a good alternative.

The European Galilieo GPS satellite system is a two-way system, said to be a precursor to road pricing for vehicle usage by geographical means, , and is it correct to all new vehicles to EU standards of construction and use have a mandatory celllnet phone style system for geographically locating the vehicle in a 999 emergency situation

 

[Ken H]

Such as?

Imaginitive marketing to get more bums on seats and more cash in the tills.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In Greater Manchester and its hinterland the level of private-car commuting is absolutely ridiculous given the relatively good provision of public transport.
The M60 circular, instead of being part of the national strategic motorway network as intended, is just a commuter rat-run with many one junction journies. I would stop up a lot of the junctions, introduce road pricing and direct the surplus revenue to improving public transport as Oslo has done.

If you don't mind me asking, what is it you've been smoking, as I want some?

Other than Metrolink, public transport in Greater Manchester is absolutely appalling. In a European city of its size, Manchester would have U- and S-Bahnen, trams and fully integrated buses in a single fare system, plus excellent dedicated cycle infrastructure. As for its hinterland, TPE is unusable and Northern not hugely better.

Sort all that THEN go for the cars. I don't blame people for driving around GM. If I didn't live near a Metrolink stop I would too.

Such as?

Integration of timetables and fares can be done on a revenue neutral basis.

 

[spyinthesky]

Abolish the VED / council tax / inheritance and VAT. Just increase income tax, we all pay for things we never/seldom use. Imports/exports and people being paid from offshore companies would have to be dealt will separately but at least budgets could be set more accurately.

 

[lachlan]

Abolish the VED / council tax / inheritance and VAT. Just increase income tax, we all pay for things we never/seldom use. Imports/exports and people being paid from offshore companies would have to be dealt will separately but at least budgets could be set more accurately.

Abolishing inheritance tax is a terrible idea. Why should working people see tax increases while those who have rich relatives can inherit tax free.

As for VED, people who choose to drive have numerous negative effects on others around them and I think it is fair that they are taxed for the privelage.

 

[GS250]

Thank god for my car. It didn't simply give up yesterday unlike the route from Chester to Wrexham. Apparently the signaller had phoned in sick so no trains. This kind of PR is why a lot of people actually despise the railways and refuse to give up their cars.

I was planning on making it a train day out yesterday....thankfully my more sensible side kicked in and I drove from Harrow to Wrexham.

I pay £325 for 'road tax' every year and will gladly do so every year.

 

[nw1]

If you don't mind me asking, what is it you've been smoking, as I want some?

Other than Metrolink, public transport in Greater Manchester is absolutely appalling. In a European city of its size, Manchester would have U- and S-Bahnen, trams and fully integrated buses in a single fare system, plus excellent dedicated cycle infrastructure. As for its hinterland, TPE is unusable and Northern not hugely better.

Sort all that THEN go for the cars. I don't blame people for driving around GM. If I didn't live near a Metrolink stop I would too.

This.

As a non-driver, my opinion is that public transport needs to be made better BEFORE you start punitive taxes/charges on drivers. Actually, to be honest, I am not sure I would support the latter at all, but instead make public transport so good (convenient / integrated / cheap multi-modal journeys) that it would attract more people to use it.