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Making top-contact third rail safer

Bletchleyite

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With reference to general discussion on https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...to-safety-concerns.267283/page-3#post-6759710:

What I don't understand about third rail is why nobody has developed an affordable and safe means of shielding it. You can't shield the top, but U shaped fibreglass troughs do exist and significantly reduce the risk of it being stepped on/caught by accident. These may not be practical everywhere, but surely it isn't beyond the wit of man to design something suitable?

Any thoughts?
 
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zwk500

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Yellow wooden/fibreglass boards are in common use at stations (primarily termini) and around level crossings. However they come with fitting and maintenance costs (albeit very low) and are also yet another thing on track to make sure isn't causing problems to trains and is doing it's job.

Looking at some of the shoe designs nowadays (e.g. 700s) it may not be too long before a top-cover is viable, with the vertical part of the shoes offset. Even then I don't see it being fitted universally, although it perhaps could provide sufficient protection in certain areas to allow sensible extensions to take place.
 

MarkyT

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Yellow wooden/fibreglass boards are in common use at stations (primarily termini) and around level crossings. However they come with fitting and maintenance costs (albeit very low) and are also yet another thing on track to make sure isn't causing problems to trains and is doing it's job.
All more stuff to be damaged, come adrift, form an obstacle to trains or a tripping hazard.
Looking at some of the shoe designs nowadays (e.g. 700s) it may not be too long before a top-cover is viable, with the vertical part of the shoes offset. Even then I don't see it being fitted universally, although it perhaps could provide sufficient protection in certain areas to allow sensible extensions to take place.
Perhaps a continuous slot in the top might be sealed by a leather flap, moistened and lubricated by tallow and whale oil... I'll get my coat, and top hat!
 

MarkyT

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The simplest and cheapest solution is a surely just a proportionate attitude to risk.
Which suggests some further mitigations are sensible and may be legally necessary from a H&S POV in any extension of the system compared to historic mid-20th century implementations of the technology. Maybe power might only be applied to the rail when there's a train coming, with sections switched by signalling (shades of London's Post Office railway). Batteries on board might be employed so much bigger gaps can be tolerated around any remaining level crossings, and sensors employed to detect and alarm any trackside trespass at LCs and platforms. Much of the risk exposure is to staff legitimately on the track for repairs and maintenance. Finer and easier section switching, self protection with lockout devices etc would help these staff, and batteries onboard could allow temporary protective isolations of the conductor while traffic stays moving, cautioned as necessary for the work going on.
 

SynthD

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Do third rail systems suffer from being cycled on/off that often?
 

zwk500

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Maybe power might only be applied to the rail when there's a train coming, with sections switched by signalling (shades of London's Post Office railway).
This is regularly suggested and IIRC the answer is that the switchgear would be absolutely hammered at the intensity it would be used.
Batteries on board might be employed so much bigger gaps can be tolerated around any remaining level crossings, and sensors employed to detect and alarm any trackside trespass at LCs and platforms.
I think a 'bridging battery' will be fitted to most EMUs moving forwards. There are so many potential applications of this kind.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think a 'bridging battery' will be fitted to most EMUs moving forwards. There are so many potential applications of this kind.

This is a no-brainer now for lots of reasons:
  • Making depot work safer
  • Keeping lights, toilets and aircon working when stranded with power off
  • Moving a unit to a platform for safe evacuation
Not only because of non-electrified sections!
 

zwk500

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This is a no-brainer now for lots of reasons:
  • Making depot work safer
  • Keeping lights, toilets and aircon working when stranded with power off
  • Moving a unit to a platform for safe evacuation
Not only because of non-electrified sections!
Quite agree. Moving the unit to the platform, simplifying depot protection arrangements, and the ability for incremental electrification/conversion are my 3 personal biggest advantages but there's lots of others, such as allowing bigger gaps in the third rail at high-risk locations (level crossings, electrical section boundaries, complex junctions) - which could lead to infill coming back onto the table, an additional element of power supply management, and greater fleet harmonisation.
 

Ken H

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How do trespassers get on the tracks?
Stations? Level crossings? broken/inadequate fencing?
How can we make the railway more secure from trespass?
 

SouthernR

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The Alstom APS ground level power supply system, currently used for trams, e.g. Bordeaux, could be developed. The central third rail is divided into sections shorter than a tram. Each section is only energized when a tram is present, and covering the live rail.
Obviously this would be very expensive, especially if back-fitted to an existing network. Significant modifications would be necessary to the trains.
 

zwk500

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The Alstom APS ground level power supply system, currently used for trams, e.g. Bordeaux, could be developed. The central third rail is divided into sections shorter than a tram. Each section is only energized when a tram is present, and covering the live rail.
Obviously this would be very expensive, especially if back-fitted to an existing network. Significant modifications would be necessary to the trains.
It's somewhat impractical for trains travelling up to 100mph that might be as short as 80m. AIUI Bordeaux only uses APS within the historic centre and switches to conventional Overhead once it is slightly further from the sensitive areas.
 

Bletchleyite

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It's somewhat impractical for trains travelling up to 100mph that might be as short as 80m. AIUI Bordeaux only uses APS within the historic centre and switches to conventional Overhead once it is slightly further from the sensitive areas.

It's also almost certainly the case that major modifications like a redesign of the whole concept would cost more than just wiring it, particularly if batteries allowed discontinuous wires for tunnels and bridges.

The cheapest way to change the system to be safe enough (for any sensible person) would be to switch to bottom-contact, but the problem is that (unlike the wires) that can't coexist with top-contact, so you'd need lengthy closures to do it.
 

Trainbike46

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With reference to general discussion on https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...to-safety-concerns.267283/page-3#post-6759710:

What I don't understand about third rail is why nobody has developed an affordable and safe means of shielding it. You can't shield the top, but U shaped fibreglass troughs do exist and significantly reduce the risk of it being stepped on/caught by accident. These may not be practical everywhere, but surely it isn't beyond the wit of man to design something suitable?

Any thoughts?
Going a completely different way, the risk could also be reduced by closing most (all?) level crossings. For track workers, the only option (short of replacing with OHLE or bottom-contact third rail) would be to be stricter on having to switch the electricity of before workers can enter the track area.

From an engineering point of view, if it would be possible to have a train that can accept both top-contact and bottom-contact third rail that would be ideal - we could switch to bottom-contact for extensions and renewals, increasing safety and making extensions easier where they make sense
 

whoosh

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With reference to general discussion on https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...to-safety-concerns.267283/page-3#post-6759710:

What I don't understand about third rail is why nobody has developed an affordable and safe means of shielding it. You can't shield the top, but U shaped fibreglass troughs do exist and significantly reduce the risk of it being stepped on/caught by accident. These may not be practical everywhere, but surely it isn't beyond the wit of man to design something suitable?

Any thoughts?
A short circuiting bar cannot be used where there is any shielding. It actually contacts the bottom of the third rail, and top of the running rail.
 

Trainbike46

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A short circuiting bar cannot be used where there is any shielding. It actually contacts the bottom of the third rail, and top of the running rail.
Presumably a separate design for a short-circuiting bar must either exist or could be designed for that?
 

swt_passenger

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This is regularly suggested and IIRC the answer is that the switchgear would be absolutely hammered at the intensity it would be used.
Also, the third rail effectively doubles up as the DC distribution system along the line, connecting all the feeder station outputs together. As was pointed out in last year’s discussion about this hypothetical dynamic switching, you’d therefore need a parallel, but insulated, circuit separate to the existing track system, but still passing the full traction current. To avoid voltage drop it would need a huge cross-section. Not only would switchgear get hammered as you say, the sheer amount of it required would probably be unaffordable.

I suggest that examples of low speed, relatively low current, short distance city centre tram systems just won’t scale up to a busy main line heavy rail system.
 

The exile

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How do trespassers get on the tracks?
Stations? Level crossings? broken/inadequate fencing?
How can we make the railway more secure from trespass?
We don’t- we just ensure that the law recognises that a landowner etc has no duty of care to trespassers. Still leaves the issue of those legitimately on the track.
 

zwk500

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We don’t- we just ensure that the law recognises that a landowner etc has no duty of care to trespassers. Still leaves the issue of those legitimately on the track.
That's a massive legal change and one that has implications far beyond the railway. As it happens it's something I think should be looked at, but there's definitely an element of being careful what you wish for with it.
 

The exile

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That's a massive legal change and one that has implications far beyond the railway. As it happens it's something I think should be looked at, but there's definitely an element of being careful what you wish for with it.
Agreed.
 

Ken H

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We don’t- we just ensure that the law recognises that a landowner etc has no duty of care to trespassers. Still leaves the issue of those legitimately on the track.
What does the law say about trespass on the railway. I thought railway trespass was illegal under the Railway Regulation Act section 16 as amended. Criminal law.
Do we know how many people end up getting prosecuted?
 

MarkyT

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Also, the third rail effectively doubles up as the DC distribution system along the line, connecting all the feeder station outputs together. As was pointed out in last year’s discussion about this hypothetical dynamic switching, you’d therefore need a parallel, but insulated, circuit separate to the existing track system, but still passing the full traction current. To avoid voltage drop it would need a huge cross-section. Not only would switchgear get hammered as you say, the sheer amount of it required would probably be unaffordable.
All depends on the granularity of the switching required. I don't see much benefit in conductor switching on UK segregated plain track. On the long single lines that might be considered for future 3rd rail extensions just using block switching would result in conductors being live sometimes many tens of minutes before a train arrived, and high block occupancy would lead to them being energised most of the time anyway. The main place where switching might be worth considering is in station platforms. If we imagine our battery-equipped train coming into a station, leaving the usually energised plain line conductor a fair way out of the station at the home signal and running through non equipped throat paintwork on battery. The conductor rail recommences once the platform is reached though remains isolated during this run-in. Only when the train is completely stationary is the platform power switched on and that remains energised for the train to 'take a drink' if necessary and assist in subsequent acceleration. Once the train has completely departed the platform, the platform power is disconnected until the next arrival. That would remove a large risk in the number one cause of passenger deaths on the UK railway in recent years, falling from platforms, often when there are no trains about. As the train leaves the station it encounters the normally energised plain line conductor rail a little way out and continues as normal, taking power for traction and in motion charging as required.

It would be a total nightmare and practically impossible to section up the throat at Waterloo lets say and switch short conductor lengths on and off according to signal route setting. My solution would remove all that throat conductor provision anyway with its short lengths through crossovers and miles of complex jumper cables. All the trains need at least a moderately sized battery first though.
I suggest that examples of low speed, relatively low current, short distance city centre tram systems just won’t scale up to a busy main line heavy rail system.
That's a specific risk where electrified infrastructure is routinely sharing space with road vehicles, pedestrians, animals. In such localities, no exposed conductor must be live that can be touched by any member of the public and it's not a new idea. It was the principle behind the short lived Dolter stud supply system used initially for the early 20th century Torquay trams (and Hastings), as influential locals didn't want unsightly overhead wires. Metal studs were embedded in the road at intervals, connected by underground supply cables. A long pick-up sled under the tram was magnetised by traction current or a backup battery aboard. When passing over, the electromagnet attracted an armature in the stud box under the road that threw contacts to connect and disconnect the power at the stud. Needless to say, reliability was a problem and crews were equipped with a large mallet to bash a protruding indicating nipple on the stud boxes, connected to the armature, encouraging the contactor into its desired position. If it failed to disengage after passage of a tram that would lead to a high voltage being exposed to the public including the metal shod horses still common on the roads of the time. After some incidents, an alarm bell was devised onboard that would alert crew if a stud was uncovered still energised after passage of the vehicle and the driver was instructed to stop immediately and go back to give the box a good bash with the mallet. When the tramway wanted to extend along the coast, Paignton Town Council refused to permit road studs so they were forced to use trolley wires and decided to convert the entire system in Torquay too.
 

zwk500

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All depends on the granularity of the switching required. I don't see much benefit in conductor switching on UK segregated plain track. On the long single lines that might be considered for future 3rd rail extensions just using block switching would result in conductors being live sometimes many tens of minutes before a train arrived, and high block occupancy would lead to them being energised most of the time anyway. The main place where switching might be worth considering is in station platforms. If we imagine our battery-equipped train coming into a station, leaving the usually energised plain line conductor a fair way out of the station at the home signal and running through non equipped throat paintwork on battery. The conductor rail recommences once the platform is reached though remains isolated during this run-in. Only when the train is completely stationary is the platform power switched on and that remains energised for the train to 'take a drink' if necessary and assist in subsequent acceleration. Once the train has completely departed the platform, the platform power is disconnected until the next arrival. That would remove a large risk in the number one cause of passenger deaths on the UK railway in recent years, falling from platforms, often when there are no trains about. As the train leaves the station it encounters the normally energised plain line conductor rail a little way out and continues as normal, taking power for traction and in motion charging as required.
In this scenario, why not simply dispense with the conductor through the platform altogether? The batteries would only need to get the train 2/3 carriage lengths out of the platform before the front shoe would be able to take power again.
It's safer as there's no power rail that might get energised due to a fault or incident, the batteries would be capable of the short distance anyway, and it's cheaper because there's no switchgear and interlocking to worry about. The only time when you'd want a switchable rail in the platform is if a train may layover in that platform, and in that case the Greenford-style fast charge option may be a better technical solution.
 

MarkyT

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In this scenario, why not simply dispense with the conductor through the platform altogether? The batteries would only need to get the train 2/3 carriage lengths out of the platform before the front shoe would be able to take power again.
It's safer as there's no power rail that might get energised due to a fault or incident, the batteries would be capable of the short distance anyway, and it's cheaper because there's no switchgear and interlocking to worry about. The only time when you'd want a switchable rail in the platform is if a train may layover in that platform, and in that case the Greenford-style fast charge option may be a better technical solution.
I agree that most stations with brief stops wouldn't need the platform conductors. With the trains concerned already equipped with 3rd rail shoes, it'd be difficult to also justify a second set of charging equipment for the Greenford solution unless a very quick large charge was necessary, unlikely if 3rd rail more widely deployed on the plain track between stations, although might be useful at unelectrified extremity termini more as an emergency facility if an incoming arrival turns up with a lower than typical charge state.
 

SouthernR

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It's somewhat impractical for trains travelling up to 100mph that might be as short as 80m. AIUI Bordeaux only uses APS within the historic centre and switches to conventional Overhead once it is slightly further from the sensitive areas.
Point taken. I don't know whether the supplies are interlocked with a central control/signalling system, or are simply controlled by local tram detection. The system reliability must be considered good enough to permit pedestrians to step on the rails, which are flush with the ground.
 

zwk500

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Point taken. I don't know whether the supplies are interlocked with a central control/signalling system, or are simply controlled by local tram detection. The system reliability must be considered good enough to permit pedestrians to step on the rails, which are flush with the ground.
The system is controlled by radio antennae under the trams, so I don't think it's interlocked. However in the city centre trams are unlikely to be travelling much faster than 50kph, whereas on the mainline railway trains will be travelling more than 3 times faster. 100mph is approximately 45m/s, and a 3-car EMU is 60-70m long, so in theory a section can probably only be 50m long, or maybe 25m if you went for the 2-sections principle APS currently uses. So the section would be activated for somewhere between 1-12 seconds at a time, every 2-3 minutes.
Also, APS is centrally mounted. It may not be simple to transfer it to side-mounted third rail.
 

edwin_m

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Point taken. I don't know whether the supplies are interlocked with a central control/signalling system, or are simply controlled by local tram detection. The system reliability must be considered good enough to permit pedestrians to step on the rails, which are flush with the ground.
With short-distance batteries on trams now being known technology (as in Birmingham) I doubt the APS system will be available for much longer.
 

MarkyT

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With short-distance batteries on trams now being known technology (as in Birmingham) I doubt the APS system will be available for much longer.
A lot of equipment to achieve a similar result, and severe hazard potential if malfunction left a section energised without a tram overhead. It's probably challenging to maintain like the old Torquay Dolter stud system.

The system is controlled by radio antennae under the trams, so I don't think it's interlocked.
Trams don't have plain line signalling typically, especially on road/plaza segments, only at intersections, so there are no route set or signal clearance states to switch the power. Switching must be achieved purely on proximity.
However in the city centre trams are unlikely to be travelling much faster than 50kph, whereas on the mainline railway trains will be travelling more than 3 times faster. 100mph is approximately 45m/s, and a 3-car EMU is 60-70m long, so in theory a section can probably only be 50m long, or maybe 25m if you went for the 2-sections principle APS currently uses. So the section would be activated for somewhere between 1-12 seconds at a time, every 2-3 minutes.
Also, APS is centrally mounted. It may not be simple to transfer it to side-mounted third rail.
On nominally segregated UK infrastructure where extensive reasonable steps have been taken to avoid public incursions and away from platforms, I think automatic switching based on signal route setting is of no real benefit. The extra equipment & complexity would likely be counterproductive to reliability.
 
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