Maltese Cross - Restrictions?

[RochdalePioneers]

Quite often I buy a ticket from Finsbury Park to a destination outside Z1-6 so that I can use the underground on arrival at Kings Cross to get to another terminus.

What restrictions are there on how I can use the cross London element? I know its for a single journey, what's the maximum journey time for that journey? And I take it that its Zone 1 only....?

An example is tomorrow where I have a FPK - Denham ticket. The one train an hour that stops at Denham (thanks Chiltern for the Dec12 change from 2 an hour....) also stops at West Ruislip. Would I be allowed to travel there on the Central Line?

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[bb21]

There isn't a maximum journey time. The transfer is between any two interchange stations (the list of which I am unable to look up at the moment. The journey is not necessarily Zone 1 only.

I am sure W Ruislip is an interchange station. So you can do West Ruislip - King's X on LU for example.

 

[John @ home]

I have a Finsbury Park - Denham ticket. The ... train ... stops at West Ruislip. Would I be allowed to travel there on the Central Line?

No. The list of London Tube / DLR Stations between which single/return tickets valid for travel ‘via London' may be used, subject to route of the through journey being made, is here. West Ruislip is not on the list.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....I am sure W Ruislip is an interchange station. So you can do West Ruislip - King's X on LU for example.

West Ruislip is not a cross London connection station, it is on an inter-available route (West Ruislip to South Ruislip only).

The list of cross London connection stations is available on the National Rail website.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/crossing_london.html

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Thanks for that. Its a longer list of interchange stations than I would have guessed at! So does that mean that providing you didn't leave the system a journey between two relevant interchange points could take in quite a few of the others that's not obviously on route?

I ask because my last KXStP - Marylebone transfer involved one change only at Elephant and Castle. More possibilities look viable off that long list....

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[Urban Gateline]

Slightly off-topic but still related, I was told of another "restriction" of Maltese cross tickets by ticket office staff at Surbiton station...that if it was PRIV discounted it is not valid on LUL apparently...

Of course I know this is not the case on point to point tickets, hence why I use them often as it can be cheaper than Oyster for me! On the other hand, not to be confused with the singles to underground zones which are only PRIV discountable to Safeguarded staff.

 

[bb21]

West Ruislip is not a cross London connection station, it is on an inter-available route (West Ruislip to South Ruislip only).

Ahm, yes. Rusty memories. Oops. Sorry.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Thanks for that. Its a longer list of interchange stations than I would have guessed at! So does that mean that providing you didn't leave the system a journey between two relevant interchange points could take in quite a few of the others that's not obviously on route?

I ask because my last KXStP - Marylebone transfer involved one change only at Elephant and Castle. More possibilities look viable off that long list....

You are supposed to take a reasonable route between stations.

Slightly off-topic but still related, I was told of another "restriction" of Maltese cross tickets by ticket office staff at Surbiton station...that if it was PRIV discounted it is not valid on LUL apparently... ....

TOCNE Priv discounts are not valid on tickets to Underground destinations, however, the 'Newsrail Express' section of 'The Manual' has a notice in it (very recently) to say that Priv discounted tickets with a Maltese Cross on ARE valid on 'cross London' journeys on the Underground. A ticket to an Underground destination should not have a Maltese Cross.

 

[yorkie]

You may find the relevant section in our Fares Guide helpful:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1315636

If, having read that, you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to ask.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I ask because my last KXStP - Marylebone transfer involved one change only at Elephant and Castle. More possibilities look viable off that long list....

That may be deemed unreasonable. If you encountered an RPI, you'd probably need a good reason (for example, if you are mobility impaired and if the interchange was a lot easier taking that route).

The most sensible routes would be to change at Baker Street, Oxford Circus, or Piccadilly Circus. I'm sure other routes would be considered reasonable too, but Elephant & Castle is pushing it. I can ask an LU RPI to PM you with his thoughts if you like

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Kings Cross to Marylebone involves (at least) one change of train. All of the options stay within Z1 including Elephant and Castle. And we've established no maximum journey time which suggests I could do a clockwise circle line trip if I wanted and walk from Edgware Road.

So surely any 1 change 1 zone journey is the same as any other 1 change 1 zone journey?

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[bb21]

So surely any 1 change 1 zone journey is the same as any other 1 change 1 zone journey?

Depends on your interpretation of the word "reasonable".

Would anyone who just wants to complete their journey without other intentions really want to go all the way to Elephant & Castle and then all the way back? This looks much longer on the tube map and indeed takes much longer relatively speaking.

 

[Metrailway]

If one puts Finsbury Park - Denham via Greenford on Chiltern's website it suggests travelling on the Central Line between Greenford and South Ruislip yet this route is not shown as an inter available route on here. The same occurs on NRE.

Is this a mistake or is the ticket valid on LU services between Greenford and South Ruislip?

Long ago, I remember seeing a page from a LU document which suggested that National Rail tickets valid between South Ruislip to London Terminals were valid on LU. I guess this is not the case anymore?

 

[sheff1]

You are supposed to take a reasonable route between stations.

That may be deemed unreasonable.

Depends on your interpretation of the word "reasonable".

I am struggling to find the requirement to travel via a 'reasonable' route.

Can anyone provide a link please.

 

[Urban Gateline]

You are supposed to take a reasonable route between stations.



TOCNE Priv discounts are not valid on tickets to Underground destinations, however, the 'Newsrail Express' section of 'The Manual' has a notice in it (very recently) to say that Priv discounted tickets with a Maltese Cross on ARE valid on 'cross London' journeys on the Underground. A ticket to an Underground destination should not have a Maltese Cross.

The former I was aware of, but not the latter (except of course the U123456 combinations which I know TOCNE cannot get PRIV discount on)

I did once buy a Boundary Zone 6 to Amersham with PRIV discount as I held a Z1-6 day Travelcard on that day, so I wonder if that extension which was discounted, was only valid on the NR services then and not the Metropolitan line?! As Amersham is an "Underground destination"!

 

[AeroSpace]

You don't have to travel by a 'reasonable' route with an Underground ticket, so why should you with a National Rail ticket?

 

[maniacmartin]

You don't have to travel by a 'reasonable' route with an Underground ticket, so why should you with a National Rail ticket?

Technically you do. TfL's Conditions of Carriage, page 30, for Singles or Returns:

Can be used to travel by any reasonably
direct route to the destination, unless a
particular route is specified by the words
on the ticket, the ticket machines or
price list or by one of our staff.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The former I was aware of, but not the latter (except of course the U123456 combinations which I know TOCNE cannot get PRIV discount on)

I did once buy a Boundary Zone 6 to Amersham with PRIV discount as I held a Z1-6 day Travelcard on that day, so I wonder if that extension which was discounted, was only valid on the NR services then and not the Metropolitan line?! As Amersham is an "Underground destination"!

Amersham is a rail destination aswell as an underground destination.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Amersham is a rail destination aswell as an underground destination.

And so are Euston, Kings Cross and all the other London terminii! The only difference is that they are separated by their own ticket barriers!

My point still stands as you can take LUL most of the way to Amersham, however on a PRIV discounted ticket for a TOCNE member of staff you'd not expect it to be valid!

 

[bb21]

You forgot that it is an interavailable route between Amersham and Harrow-on-the-Hill, so definitely between the edge of Zone 6 and Amersham.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

And so are Euston, Kings Cross and all the other London terminii! The only difference is that they are separated by their own ticket barriers!

My point still stands as you can take LUL most of the way to Amersham, however on a PRIV discounted ticket for a TOCNE member of staff you'd not expect it to be valid!

London Euston and London Kings Cross are railway stations and come under the rail destination of London Terminals. Euston and Kings Cross St Pancras are underground stations and come under the destination Zone U1.

As for inter-available routes, I have not heard of any official allowance on the underground for TOCNE Priv passes. That is not to say it won't be accepted though.

 

[Mojo]

I am struggling to find the requirement to travel via a 'reasonable' route.

Can anyone provide a link please.

As far as I can see, the only publicly accessible source regarding cross London transfers is on the National Rail website. This says ''Tickets displaying this indicator are valid for travel between any two stations shown in the ‘Station List' (below) appropriate to the route of the through journey being made.''

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/crossing_london.html

 

[bb21]

As for inter-available routes, I have not heard of any official allowance on the underground for TOCNE Priv passes. That is not to say it won't be accepted though.

My interpretation is based on the wording in The Manual.

Inter-available Routes – National Rail tickets valid on LU/DLR services

Subject to tickets being valid between the appropriate stations or for the zones shown, National Rail singles, returns and Season Tickets are valid on LU /DLR services as shown below:

National Rail tickets which include validity between ... are also valid on LU / DLR services between ...

PRIV (safeguarded or not) tickets obviously have the same routeing validity as ordinary tickets, hence there is nothing to suggest that they are not valid on interavailable routes using LU.

 

[Mojo]

The Manual does say though

''Privilege rate tickets purchased using a TOC Privilege Card are not valid for use on London Transport (TfL) unless making through rail journeys via London including cross-London transfer by London Underground and Docklands Light Railway services using a National Rail to National Rail point-to-point single or return ticket.''

Which reads to me that the only Tocne Priv discounted tickets acceptable are those with a cross-London transfer.

 

[bb21]

I know that sometimes conditions attached to the discount overrules the general conditions of a fare. That said, I am yet to see a case where routeing is affected, except where there is a geographical validity constraint, such as the Network Railcard.

I guess it will come down to what interpretation LU staff make on the day.

 

[sheff1]

As far as I can see, the only publicly accessible source regarding cross London transfers is on the National Rail website. This says ''Tickets displaying this indicator are valid for travel between any two stations shown in the ‘Station List' (below) appropriate to the route of the through journey being made.''

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/crossing_london.html

Yes, that is all I could find. No mention of 'reasonable' (or 'reasonably direct') there.

The TfL CoC quoted above refers only to an 'Undergound Single or Return'. A National Rail ticket with cross London availabilty is not an 'Undergound Single or Return' so, unless someone can come up with another reference, I would argue that the OP can validly travel via Elephant & Castle.

 

[34D]

I would argue that the OP can validly travel via Elephant & Castle.

Its not that unreasonable. My own preferred route kings cross to marylebone is victoria line to Green Park, cross platform, back to Oxford st, cross platform, then bakerloo.

I'd argue that that is reasonable

 

[Mojo]

I'd argue that ''appropriate to the route of the through journey being made'' applies to both the route you can travel and the stations you can choose.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'd argue that ''appropriate to the route of the through journey being made'' applies to both the route you can travel and the stations you can choose.

Of course it means that. Someone arguing that because it doesn't say 'reasonable' you can therefore go anywhere should realise that reasonable and appropriate are being used the same way here...

 

[sheff1]

Of course it means that. Someone arguing that because it doesn't say 'reasonable' you can therefore go anywhere should realise that reasonable and appropriate are being used the same way here...

Why should whoever wrote the document use 'appropriate' if they meant 'reasonable' - the two words have different meanings.

By the way, I have never said you can go 'anywhere'.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Lets put it like this. E&C is in zone 1 as are all the other 1 change leaps I could take. So its a journey of 1 change staying inside Z1. As to why you'd want to change there, does no one else detest the tube in the peak? E&C is just outside the core and the end of the bakerloo - that means no crowd and a guaranteed seat....

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