Manchester Victoria then and now

[Philip]

A lot of people on this forum are quite critical of Manchester Victoria Station, especially the gloomy western platforms under the arena. However, how does the Victoria of the last 30 years compare with the station that was there beforehand, in the 70s and 80s? Did it have more character before the arena transformed it, were the facilities worse or better etc?

 

[jfollows]

It was gloomy and grotty in the 1970s also, but I think it was probably things like steam-heat class 40s on the front of the train to Leeds at platform 12 or 14 that made it seem interesting. I think there was a subway between the platforms as well as a footbridge. The station facilities weren't much to write home about either. I still preferred it to the Stockport-Stalybridge option which was the alternative at the time for Poynton-Leeds, it was more interesting although Guide Bridge was pretty interesting at the time also.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think both iterations of it are grim.

That said, the current station seemed quite futuristic (in terms of the platform area) in the 90s. I think it getting so busy and it being left to get dirty has downgraded it, plus it was better before the Arena bridge and gateline which cause a claustrophobic feel.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

--- the Arena bridge and gateline which cause a claustrophobic feel.

Agreed. Definitely claustrophobic compared to when I was transpennine Peak bashing in the 1980s

 

[Penmorfa]

Yes, it was a run down dump but it had vastly more capacity. I don't recall any footbridge only a wide subway.

 

[Efini92]

A lot of people on this forum are quite critical of Manchester Victoria Station, especially the gloomy western platforms under the arena. However, how does the Victoria of the last 30 years compare with the station that was there beforehand, in the 70s and 80s? Did it have more character before the arena transformed it, were the facilities worse or better etc?

It was shortsighted removing all the through platforms and building the arena in the city centre.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It was shortsighted removing all the through platforms and building the arena in the city centre.

Haven't we had this debate before?

Possibly yes, with the benefit of 20:20 hindsight, but by the late 1980's, Manchester Victoria had the aura of a run-down, past its best, secondary, city centre railway station, badly in need of rationalisation / redevelopment and with little money to do so seemingly available.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Facilities were about the same, but the old station was vast, and it was quite the trek through that horrible subway. The old station needed to go- it was too big and too spread out and, even today, would still be too big and too spread out.

Selling the land for the arena was a sensible use. It would still be the best decision now. None of the development at that end of Manchester happens without the arena starting it off.

The only real problem with the station is the lack of ventilation, especially on platform 6, with 30 years of diesel fumes leaving their mark. Perhaps one more through platform wouldn’t go amiss, but it’s not like the place is running over-capacity even now.

ETA found a photo on Flickr (not mine- credit to “Patric Roft” ): https://www.flickr.com/photos/patric_roft/5237485183

 

[Merthyr Imp]

A couple of photos from the 1980s:

 

[Efini92]

Haven't we had this debate before?

Possibly yes, with the benefit of 20:20 hindsight, but by the late 1980's, Manchester Victoria had the aura of a run-down, past its best, secondary, city centre railway station, badly in need of rationalisation / redevelopment and with little money to do so seemingly available.

Yes I’m pretty sure we have.
It wasn’t just the rationalisation of Victoria. The placement of the arena was wrong. It would’ve been better built where the new concert venue is being built.

 

[edwin_m]

With hindsight, maybe better to build the Arena on the old bay platforms, with a gap left for Metrolink, and keep a couple more through platforms instead?

 

[Bletchleyite]

With hindsight, maybe better to build the Arena on the old bay platforms, with a gap left for Metrolink, and keep a couple more through platforms instead?

Possibly. But at the time it made sense - Picc was to be the main station, Vic was just Liverpool Central with Pacers.

The problem now is that Vic is once again a main station, and it can't cope.

 

[LYRobert]

It was gloomy and grotty in the 1970s also, but I think it was probably things like steam-heat class 40s on the front of the train to Leeds at platform 12 or 14 that made it seem interesting. I think there was a subway between the platforms as well as a footbridge. The station facilities weren't much to write home about either. I still preferred it to the Stockport-Stalybridge option which was the alternative at the time for Poynton-Leeds, it was more interesting although Guide Bridge was pretty interesting at the time also.

There was a pedestrian subway. Although the walls were tiled it was gloomy, wet, and dripped. I think it was gas-lit, but that might be my imagination. Whilst (hurriedly) walking through it if a loco passed over there was a characteristic "Boom - boom" - alarming if you weren't used to it. It had steps down into it from the platforms, but a long ramp (at right angles?) up to the main concourse. I was always slightly relieved to get to the end of it. I don't think there existed an alternative route over a footbridge - if there was I never used it. I passed that way once a week during term-time, but when coming home I got my train at Salford (Clifton Junction - Bury Bolton St., - Accrington - Burnley R.G.). All things considered Victoria Sta. is a much better place now, although most of my route home doesn't exist any more - I'd have to go via Tod.

 

[Efini92]

Possibly. But at the time it made sense - Picc was to be the main station, Vic was just Liverpool Central with Pacers.

The problem now is that Vic is once again a main station, and it can't cope.

Pic was never going to cope with all the northbound traffic with just 2 platforms.
Another problem at Victoria is trains travelling towards Stalybridge can only use the slow lines. If they still had the crossover from the down fast at miles platting it would stop the backing up of late running transpennine’s.

 

[edwin_m]

Possibly. But at the time it made sense - Picc was to be the main station, Vic was just Liverpool Central with Pacers.

The problem now is that Vic is once again a main station, and it can't cope.

Although I suggested my post had the benefit of hindsight, I now wonder if putting the Arena on the former bay platforms might have been a better choice, even based on what was known at the time. The area in question is about the same size and shape as the Arena footprint. Metrolink might have had to be underneath it but that's probably no worse from a construction point of view than building over the through platforms, and considerably better for passengers than covering a platform used by diesels. Instead of the operationally rather inconvenient south side bay platform, a bay or two could have been included between the through tracks, preferably designed to be punched through to create more through tracks at a later date.

 

[dunc695]

Victoria was rebuilt at a time when rail travel was still in decline and it's only future was for suburban traffic. The current station may not be ideal but it might have been worse, BR's original plan was to reduce the capacity to just one
through island platform. Since those days, demand for rail travel became more popular when new stock came on stream capacities were increased and as more services required paths through Manchester they were always going to use Victoria more when circumstances changed and the Castlefield corridor became more capacity constrained.

The obvious was always going to present itself as the years progressed; older station had more capacity, not just platforms but loops and sidings also a vast array of stabling sidings at Red Bank. Since the station was rebuilt they've had to spend vast sums of money trying to make the layout more flexible.

Whichever route you come in on, there's no grand entrance into Manchester from the North, it's the bottleneck of one or the claustrophobia of another.

 

[Sm5]

Victoria was rebuilt at a time when rail travel was still in decline and it's only future was for suburban traffic. The current station may not be ideal but it might have been worse, BR's original plan was to reduce the capacity to just one
through island platform. Since those days, demand for rail travel became more popular when new stock came on stream capacities were increased and as more services required paths through Manchester they were always going to use Victoria more when circumstances changed and the Castlefield corridor became more capacity constrained.

i beg to differ, my recollection was Victoria was sacrificed for its land value.
Demand had been rising for several plus years, Metrolink took the Bury platforms, and gradually expanded.
BR wanted to run down victoria, and several attempts including sprinters, windsor link all failed to kill the demand, which was rising.

but it was all about money, not demand… that decline started turning circa 1985 and never looked back.

indeed a potential solution to todays capacity crisis lay right next door.. at Exchange, but theyve sold that land now too.
Whilst the crisis at Piccadilly will probably never be solved, and Mayfield will go too.

 

[RailWonderer]

The size isn't such a problem if a remodelling was to be done - it just won't be. The major problems are the disesel fumes under the low ceiling through platforms and being prone to congestion at busy times because of its odd layout. If anything London Liverpool St is worse to use in the peaks with so many entrances in all directions, it's only redeeming factor being it's only served by EMUs.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The diesel fug is particularly acute on the footbridge, where it accumulates under the ceiling and is surely a H & S issue? I took my bike on the train to Stalybridge a few weeks ago, faffing around with the lifts to access the platform, and it was seriously unpleasant. The new roof is getting seriously dirty too and has a few 'punctures' - from pecking birds apparently. The site is also getting hemmed in even further by the 'Victoria North' development on part of the former east facing terminal platforms. The new roof has also revealed rather cruelly the poor quality of the L & Y main building, with its cheap bricks above the line of the former train shed.

Maybe if the new Coop arena at Eastlands sees off the Victoria arena, we can start again and design something fit for purpose?

 

[WibbleWobble]

Maybe if the new Coop arena at Eastlands sees off the Victoria arena, we can start again and design something fit for purpose?

That won't happen - the Manchester Arena is currently undergoing a £50 million redevelopment to add in an extra 3000 seats and new hospitality suites.

 

[Trothy]

I can't remember where this came from originally, but for those unfamiliar this is the best map I've seen of Victoria before the Arena arrived (no idea exactly what date this is from, sorry)

 

[Efini92]

I can't remember where this came from originally, but for those unfamiliar this is the best map I've seen of Victoria before the Arena arrived (no idea exactly what date this is from, sorry)

It must be pretty old as it’s showing the fish dock. That went before platform’s 1&2, which was early 70’s for the vic-picc tunnel

 

[Baxenden Bank]

My view would be that, BR having full knowledge of the problems experienced following the rebuild of Birmingham New Street (dark, dingy, fume filled platforms) any similar over-platform station redevelopment should have avoided repeating the experience.

Did Platform 12/13 (in previous post, excellent find by the way @Trothy), the large island platform, have an area of wooden platform?

 

[dunc695]

i beg to differ, my recollection was Victoria was sacrificed for its land value.
Demand had been rising for several plus years, Metrolink took the Bury platforms, and gradually expanded.
BR wanted to run down victoria, and several attempts including sprinters, windsor link all failed to kill the demand, which was rising.

but it was all about money, not demand… that decline started turning circa 1985 and never looked back.

indeed a potential solution to todays capacity crisis lay right next door.. at Exchange, but theyve sold that land now too.
Whilst the crisis at Piccadilly will probably never be solved, and Mayfield will go

I'm sure I read somewhere (could've been in the book Rail Centres Manchester) that BRs original goal in the 70s wasn't even a complete rebuild but complete closure of Victoria but this never clearly became a thing.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

There's a mid-2000's book by Tom Wray which may be of interest with regard to this subject topic.

 

[Trackman]

I can't remember where this came from originally, but for those unfamiliar this is the best map I've seen of Victoria before the Arena arrived (no idea exactly what date this is from, sorry)

Fascinating, many thanks.
As for age, before December 1940 because shed roofs and the electric parcels do-dah were destroyed in a blitz raid.

 

[jp4712]

I loved the old Victoria station - yes it was a bit scruffy, but it was full of character and the modern station is too small, dingy and soulless in comparison. A sympathetic reconstruction could have succeeded if the Arena had not been built.

I'm not sure if there was a wooden section on 12/13 - there definitely was on 14/15.

The Picc-Vic line is mentioned above - now, I'm a trustee director at the Museum of Transport Greater Manchester and we have a huge archive file on Picc-Vic. One of the things I do for the museum is to manage its Flickr photo page, and some months ago I enjoyed uploading a pic from our collection showing a test borehole being sunk on platform 1 at Victoria - see the pic below. Not many people appreciate that Picc-Vic was more than a paper proposal: construction actually started and we also have photos showing two fairly circumspect men being lowered in a bucket into a shaft being dug in the Fish Dock area of the station.

Please click on the pic to see the full-size version and read my full caption notes, we like people to browse our photo collection.

Waiting for the train that never came by Museum of Transport Greater Manchester, on Flickr

 

[Ken H]

I can't remember where this came from originally, but for those unfamiliar this is the best map I've seen of Victoria before the Arena arrived (no idea exactly what date this is from, sorry)

Is there still a way in from the north side. Used that a few timed around 1990.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Pic was never going to cope with all the northbound traffic with just 2 platforms.

Picc coped fine until 3 things happened roughly around the same time:

1. Permissive working was removed and the mid-platform signals fitted - prior to this three 2-car units in 13 or 14 wasn't unusual at all, and the rear train would be very close by so releasing the doors on the rear train wouldn't cause huge delay.
2. The 1998 timetable brought in a number of service increases, not all of which stuck but some did, e.g. 2tph to Southport and an increased Blackpool service (albeit the extra Southport being from Vic).
3. The 175s arrived, bringing longer trains so even with permissive working they couldn't be stacked up in the same way.

That won't happen - the Manchester Arena is currently undergoing a £50 million redevelopment to add in an extra 3000 seats and new hospitality suites.

To attempt to compete with Eastlands, presumably. No guarantee they'll succeed though.

 

[snowball]

I can't remember where this came from originally, but for those unfamiliar this is the best map I've seen of Victoria before the Arena arrived (no idea exactly what date this is from, sorry)

I've seen it more than once. I think on at least one occasion it was posted by Joseph_Locke, a former regular and well-informed poster on this forum and on Skyscrapercity.