Mass removal of services from station departure boards during disruption

[12LDA28C]

Never underestimate people not being aware of what is happening around them.
If someone is fixated on finding their train, they may not notice all others are cancelled.

If I turn up at Paddington (for example) at 1445 to catch the 1503 to Penzance and when I arrive the screens show a message saying all train running has been suspended indefinitely due to an incident, It's pretty obvious that the 1503 to Penzance is cancelled. I don't think you need any particularly in-depth knowledge of railway operations to make that assumption.

I don't travel by plane very often.
I don't care if all other flights are cancelled as I look on the boards for mine and mine alone. If it's not there, then it creates a lot of anxiety and questions, in which I need to find someone and let's face it, staff like to disappear during disruption at the best of times.

I would make a similar assumption about the status of my flight at an airport if no flights were departing, despite not working in the airline industry or being a particularly regular flyer.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The most advantageous place to stand on a disrupted station when you want to punt for a train varies with the station.

I am more used to the blanking out of all information at London terminals as the norm and then, as the trains are made ready, the screens start to liven up. As a punter, I always assume that everything has been binned off unless the screens tell me otherwise.

My experience of the platform staff at those stations is they only find out what is going on shortly before or at the same time as we do, for quite understandable reasons.

 

[Dr Hoo]

OK but remember I did ask what was going on and the staff member on the footbridge just told me to watch the screens, not that I should go to the concourse to find someone who actually knew what was going on or to find more information on the screens there. And it's only supposition that there was more information displayed on the concourse on this occasion. All I saw as I walked past the main screens was the unusual sight of a row of blank screens. Now I may have missed something, but given they weren't making any announcements it seems quite possible there wasn't much useful on the main screens either.

And other stations I use that have similar looking displays are capable of switching the departure screens to flip between "special announcements" as well as two screens of departures so I'd rather expect that would have been a possibility.

As well as possible more staff the main concourse also had a lot more would-be passengers milling around.

The footbridge might not be the best place for information, but it's a very good one for boarding a train under such circumstances because you can be on the train and finding a seat while the scrum is surging up the platform from the main barriers.

As a former Station Manager, I must say that I am very disappointed that a member of staff on the bridge just told you to watch the screens (potentially for hours, for some destinations). I thought that staff in that area were mainly engaged in supervising the ticket barriers (if any passengers were actually travelling) rather than primarily being information sources. I would have expected them to be directing everyone to the main concourse.

Once on the concourse there is maximum availability of displays, information desks, toilets, seating, refreshment facilities or shops within easy reach. Anyone being directed to Marylebone or Waterloo for alternative services to Oxford, Reading and so on in certain scenarios is best placed for the Bakerloo Line. Tickets may be endorsed or refunded in some circumstances (at least while the Booking Office is still open).

If you want to stand around on the footbridge, hungry, thirsty and with your legs crossed, on the chance that you'll be able to make a quick dash and find a seat if your luck's in, fair enough; but don't expect everyone else to share your perspective.

 

[AdamWW]

Once on the concourse there is maximum availability of displays, information desks, toilets, seating refreshment facilities or shops within easy reach. Anyone being directed to Marylebone or Waterloo for alternative services to Oxford, Reading and so on in certain scenarios is best placed for the Bakerloo Line. Tickets may be endorsed or refunded in some circumstances (at least while the Booking Office is still open).

If you want to stand around on the footbridge, hungry, thirsty and with your legs crossed, on the chance that you'll be able to make a quick dash and find a seat if your luck's in, fair enough; but don't expect everyone else to share your perspective.

Putting your exaggeration aside, I take the point that there are good reasons to be on the concourse rather than the footbridge.

But I was by no means the only person up there, and on the concourse I doubt very much there would have been any seats free by that time so I'd have being doing just the same - standing looking at screens to see if my train was going to appear.

 

[Tom B]

A related issue (to PIS during disruption) I've experienced in the past has been that the display shows delays/cancellations for the next hour of trains to depart, followed by a tranche of correctly operating trains. People thus hang around for the waiting services, which are displayed sans-platform, before disappearing. The provision of a disruption mode would have undoubtedly been preferable in these circumstances!

 

[Falcon1200]

If I turn up at Paddington (for example) at 1445 to catch the 1503 to Penzance and when I arrive the screens show a message saying all train running has been suspended indefinitely due to an incident,

When I turned up at Paddington I don't recall any such specific message, merely a total lack of any information - The incident was a points failure, not a fatality. All of a sudden a train did appear on the screens, cue a mad dash from pretty much everyone on the concourse. I still cannot see the problem with displaying, as would be the case during normal working, however many trains the screens can accommodate, showing each as either cancelled or awaiting information. And, also just as in normal operation, once the departure time of each train is reached it disappears from the screens. Some information is better than none.

 

[AdamWW]

When I turned up at Paddington I don't recall any such specific message, merely a total lack of any information - The incident was a points failure, not a fatality. All of a sudden a train did appear on the screens, cue a mad dash from pretty much everyone on the concourse. I still cannot see the problem with displaying, as would be the case during normal working, however many trains the screens can accommodate, showing each as either cancelled or awaiting information. And, also just as in normal operation, once the departure time of each train is reached it disappears from the screens. Some information is better than none.

You and me both.

But we're just going round in circles now.

People have explained why the railway doesn't do it like that and why those of us who disagree are wrong.
(Maybe the railway should just stop providing information at all in case any of it is wrong and it misleads people?)

Mind, I don't think I've seen anyone who was actually there agreeing that things were handled in the most appropriate way. Just people who weren't there assuring me that there must have been information that I failed to notice and that I must have been waiting in the wrong place and asked the wrong person.

 

[12LDA28C]

When I turned up at Paddington I don't recall any such specific message, merely a total lack of any information - The incident was a points failure, not a fatality. All of a sudden a train did appear on the screens, cue a mad dash from pretty much everyone on the concourse. I still cannot see the problem with displaying, as would be the case during normal working, however many trains the screens can accommodate, showing each as either cancelled or awaiting information. And, also just as in normal operation, once the departure time of each train is reached it disappears from the screens. Some information is better than none.

If you can't understand that 'all trains cancelled' clearly includes each individual train then I don't really know what to suggest. In the type of incident I specifically mentioned (which you failed to quote) it's pointless leaving each individual cancelled train on the screens. A points failure, which would not generally be expected to result in several hours of cancellations, is a different situation meriting a different response.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I think you are going round in circles because you are not agreeing with anyone who has a different view from a passenger perspective, like myself.

From that perspective, I absolutely hate seeing trains up on a screen that will not run. If I was at a main line station in a period of disruption, when the trains are put on the screen and everyone goes for the first one, I might want to hang back for the second one but if that gets binned after the first one has gone, I get very annoyed.

I want to see trains that are actually running on the screen, not ones that aren’t or won’t. The station PA is what tells you the train service has gone to pot, there have been cancellations and the next services will be advertised on the screens when they are able to run. Then you wait or look for alternatives.

 

[AdamWW]

The station PA is what tells you the train service has gone to pot, there have been cancellations and the next services will be advertised on the screens when they are able to run. Then you wait or look for alternatives.

Indeed. But I think that you ought to at least consider the possibility that on this occasion I might actually be right that there were no such announcements.

I think you are going round in circles because you are not agreeing with anyone who has a different view from a passenger perspective, like myself.

Well perhaps.

From that perspective, I absolutely hate seeing trains up on a screen that will not run. If I was at a main line station in a period of disruption, when the trains are put on the screen and everyone goes for the first one, I might want to hang back for the second one but if that gets binned after the first one has gone, I get very annoyed.

I want to see trains that are actually running on the screen, not ones that aren’t or won’t.

Fair enough.

But wouldn't you find it useful to know that your train was cancelled if the next one is an hour or more away, rather than spending that hour staring at a screen in case it's suddenly announced?

 

[Clarence Yard]

No, because when I see a blank departure board in times of disruption, I always assume that all trains are cancelled. I am then looking for the first one to be advertised that will get me to my destination.

The unknown factor for me is always when is that train going to run to my destination. Do I stay or do I try another route? Do I give up? You have to play the waiting game if you are going long distance and there are no other routes.

In the control offices they will be busy working out what they can resource and sometimes they will run a late running train, sometimes they will just run the next one in the sequence that should depart. This can be quite a late decision, just prior to announcing the actual service. So, by keeping trains on the screen “just in case” as delayed, you could very well mislead the passenger. By blanking out the screen, you are not giving out any false hope and that helps keep the punters focussed on what is actually planned to run, at that particular moment.

 

[AdamWW]

No, because when I see a blank departure board in times of disruption, I always assume that all trains are cancelled. I am then looking for the first one to be advertised that will get me to my destination.

The unknown factor for me is always when is that train going to run to my destination. Do I stay or do I try another route? Do I give up? You have to play the waiting game if you are going long distance and there are no other routes.

In the control offices they will be busy working out what they can resource and sometimes they will run a late running train, sometimes they will just run the next one in the sequence that should depart. This can be quite a late decision, just prior to announcing the actual service. So, by keeping trains on the screen “just in case” as delayed, you could very well mislead the passenger. By blanking out the screen, you are not giving out any false hope and that helps keep the punters focussed on what is actually planned to run, at that particular moment.

Fair enough.

Personally I've never looked at a departure board and thought "I wish they'd just turn it off because I'd rather know nothing than be told things that might change". I know that I can't rely on any information being correct but I use all the information sources I can get hold of to form the best view I can as to what's going on.

Maybe I'm under a misapprehension here. Perhaps at times of disruption severe enough to warrant removing all services from boards there is never any scope to actually cancel a given service, and everything is just potentially late (at least until the next service runs).

 

[12LDA28C]

Maybe I'm under a misapprehension here. Perhaps at times of disruption severe enough to warrant removing all services from boards there is never any scope to actually cancel a given service, and everything is just potentially late (at least until the next service runs).

Of course there is. If trains were for example being turned round at Reading in the Up direction due to a line closure east thereof then their return workings from Paddington will clearly be cancelled, until the line reopens and train running resumes unless there are trains trapped at Paddington that can be used to restart services before any inward trains arrive.

 

[AdamWW]

Of course there is. If trains were for example being turned round at Reading in the Up direction due to a line closure east thereof then their return workings from Paddington will clearly be cancelled, until the line reopens and train running resumes unless there are trains trapped at Paddington that can be used to restart services before any inward trains arrive.

Well if you do know that there is no way that any given service could run, then I can't see how it's in passengers' interests not to tell them that, either by showing the each train on a board as cancelled or by a blanket statement that nothing will leave until at least such and such a time (as pointed out earlier, the latter approach avoiding confusion by not showing later trains as running even though they might not).

But I was thinking of the point at which services are resuming and some trains will run, possibly late, and some not. I would assume that there will be trains where it's known that they just can't run (stock and/or staff in the wrong place, or needed to replace a different train) in which case I think passengers should be told so they know that there is no need to stay glued to the screens until the next one is due.

But I don't know how these things are managed and perhaps there's never enough certainty to be able to commit to a given train not running at this stage.

 

[12LDA28C]

Well if you do know that there is no way that any given service could run, then I can't see how it's in passengers' interests not to tell them that, either by showing the each train on a board as cancelled or by a blanket statement that nothing will leave until at least such and such a time (as pointed out earlier, the latter approach avoiding confusion by not showing later trains as running even though they might not).

Which is exactly what I suggested, although it's pretty much never possible to say 'trains will start running at xx:xx time' due to the nature of many incidents, especially major ones such as fatalities or loss of power to signals etc. Unless you have a crystal ball and can predict the future, when the problem is fixed the line reopens and trains start running again. That is generally not known much in advance.

 

[Falcon1200]

If you can't understand that 'all trains cancelled' clearly includes each individual train then I don't really know what to suggest. In the type of incident I specifically mentioned (which you failed to quote) it's pointless leaving each individual cancelled train on the screens. A points failure, which would not generally be expected to result in several hours of cancellations, is a different situation meriting a different response.

But it did not result in a different response, as I have stated! It was a points failure, yet all trains were removed from the screens, hence the disquiet with the policy adopted.
BTW having spent 30 years as an Operations Controller I know only too well the likely effects of the various types of incident....

 

[bahnause]

Deleting trains without comment is not really helpful for the traveler. An example from today of a small info screen during a disruption. The cancellations were indicated ("Ausfall") and supplemented with the alternative travel route:



Since the departure boards are not suitable for displaying an overview of the disruptions, separate information screens are necessary in my view anyway. Planned disruptions in the future are shown in blue, active ones in red.


In larger stations, disruptions can also displayed on large screens. The advertising screen on the right-hand side becomes the information screen in the event of major disruptions. An overview map with alternative routes and further information will be displayed there.

 

[jon0844]

As said before, there are limitations as to what can be done in disruption mode. Without it, you'd have nothing but continuous announcements playing about delayed and cancelled services. At a busy station, that would literally be everything over and over and over - not only annoying and confusing people, but stopping anything else from being announced (bar manual PAs).

In disruption mode, it doesn't allow as far as I can see any manual text entry to perhaps give status updates or more detailed information that could be stated by staff in person or via the PA. Sure, some stations might use whiteboards, but that's not practical at a terminus station. This would be useful as control could give some more info than a single page summary text. They could in some instances explain more about the problem and any ETA for a line reopening (and explaining that doesn't mean trains instantly running, which is a big problem when people see trains starting to move and their app is promising them that their train is on time, despite being miles away).

The screens would, sort of, become like a news feed on Twitter/X from a TOC or Network Rail. The same screens could be advising ticket acceptance and the like.

I am pretty sure once disruption mode is enabled, the functionality is vastly reduced - but it's just software and it could be developed to be more useful, while achieving the goal of reducing heaps of delayed and cancelled services that gets in the way of the most important information: what IS running.

That said, I do agree that a train that is 100% cancelled and not going to be reinstated, could be shown in some way - but there's no option for showing selected trains. You can't filter between delayed, running and cancelled trains.

 

[AdamWW]

I am pretty sure once disruption mode is enabled, the functionality is vastly reduced - but it's just software and it could be developed to be more useful, while achieving the goal of reducing heaps of delayed and cancelled services that gets in the way of the most important information: what IS running.

That said, I do agree that a train that is 100% cancelled and not going to be reinstated, could be shown in some way - but there's no option for showing selected trains. You can't filter between delayed, running and cancelled trains.

Thanks - that's illuminating.

 

[jon0844]

With these new colorful matrix displays, it may well be time for the industry to look at better ways to convey information during serious disruption.

This could eliminate the need for disruption mode, or at least make it less of a blunt instrument. But, not all stations have newer screens and it would have to work at all stations. And I expect there would be a large cost to write new software. Who pays that? Each TOC? The DfT?

 

[t0ffeeman]

TCS and Comtrol running around like headless chickens... you're not gonna get too much until the driver+ guard accept the workings