Merseyrail mandates that Trainline tickets must be printed out

[Tazi Hupefi]

Because Liverpool South Parkway is not purely a Merseyrail station, what happens if you book from say Crewe to Birkenhead Park?

That won't work because Merseyrail do get a small revenue allocation on that flow.

The issue I was highlighting is that some (seemingly industry) members on this forum seem to be under the impression that they can't allow fulfilment of e-tickets to Merseyrail stations at all - regardless of whether that ticket has any validity on Merseyrail or where Merseyrail don't get any revenue from it. That is false and is concerning to hear that it seems to be coming from (parts of) RDG too.

The TSA was updated to specifically include reference to e-tickets and envisaged this exact scenario. Merseyrail refusing to adhere to this or putting pressure on other TOCs not to exercise their rights as a flow owner is a potentially anti competitive practice, as the availability of modern ticketing methods can directly affect whether a customer chooses to make a journey, and the experience of that customer.

 

[OscarH]

That won't work because Merseyrail do get a small revenue allocation on that flow.

The issue I was highlighting is that some (seemingly industry) members on this forum seem to be under the impression that they can't allow fulfilment of e-tickets to Merseyrail stations at all - regardless of whether that ticket has any validity on Merseyrail or where Merseyrail don't get any revenue from it. That is false and is concerning to hear that it seems to be coming from (parts of) RDG too.

The TSA was updated to specifically include reference to e-tickets and envisaged this exact scenario. Merseyrail refusing to adhere to this or putting pressure on other TOCs not to exercise their rights as a flow owner is a potentially anti competitive practice, as the availability of modern ticketing methods can directly affect whether a customer chooses to make a journey, and the experience of that customer.

I think anyone in the industry knows that the letter of the rules, and what happens in practise are very distinct things. Merseyrail are known to have rejected customers eTickets just for being eTickets, even if they usually accept them these days, so while the TOCs may be allowed to by the letter of the law it may be pragmatic not to in most cases. The discussion of technicalities is kind of academic anyway, because the RCS system that controls this is beyond hopeless, and what does and doesn't get enabled has relatively little relation to the guidance/rules

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I think anyone in the industry knows that the letter of the rules, and what happens in practise are very distinct things. Merseyrail are known to have rejected customers eTickets just for being eTickets, even if they usually accept them these days, so while the TOCs may be allowed to by the letter of the law it may be pragmatic not to in most cases. The discussion of technicalities is kind of academic anyway, because the RCS system that controls this is beyond hopeless, and what does and doesn't get enabled has relatively little relation to the guidance/rules

I don't think some of that is correct - I'm yet to hear of anyone who has been refused travel with a real e-ticket on Merseyrail, some reports that staff have been more inquisitive and "let them through" but I don't think anyone has been refused travel with a valid ticket. All that nonsense confusion derives from passengers with TOD collection references who seemingly don't follow instructions to collect before boarding.

 

[Skie]

For me MKC-Aughton Park doesn't and never has. I've bought that fairly often over the years. I tried on both Trainline and LNER.

Try Waterloo (Merseyside) and other Nothern Line stations. I tested a few near there and all offered e-tickets.

All that nonsense confusion derives from passengers with TOD collection references who seemingly don't follow instructions to collect before boarding.

And Merseyrail themselves saying “QR code” tickets need to be printed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Try Waterloo (Merseyside) and other Nothern Line stations. I tested a few near there and all offered e-tickets.

Tried Waterloo Merseyside and Maghull North and neither does for me.

Which booking site/app are you using?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Try Waterloo (Merseyside) and other Nothern Line stations. I tested a few near there and all offered e-tickets.


And Merseyrail themselves saying “QR code” tickets need to be printed.

Yes the messaging is very curious. I did remember a trial a little while back where some TOD booking emails were issued with a barcode and certain (I think) S+B TVMs could scan them to print the tickets without needing to do any typing. Not sure if this involved Transport for Wales.

However, I don't think that still happens, and Merseyrail probably aren't referring to that - they've just got it very muddled up, well, at least their marketing people have. I don't think there's any real issues with them at the stations.

 

[L401CJF]

The thing is Merseyrail make up a lot of rules as they go along and will quite happily issue PFs or their Fixed Penalty /on the spot out of court settlement type things regardless of bylaws or regulations.

I seem to remember a case fairly recently on this forum where they dragged somebody to court despite making numerous errors and eventually dropped the case - but I can't remember details. I'll have a dig and see if I can find the thread.

The rule they've invented where if the ticket office is closed you should take a picture as proof being a good example. I have witnessed somebody onboard issued a PF because the office was closed and when asked for a photo they didn't have one. It used to be the norm they'd phone the office and see if it was infact closed.

A friend of mine a while ago got a penalty fare for boarding a train at Overpool (unstaffed with one of their poor limited functionality TVMs) wanting to buy a Merseytravel All Zone saveaway ticket which the TVM doesn't sell despite being valid, so he boarded the train to buy it at Hamilton Square when he changed for a bus. He got a penalty fare onboard, appealed it quoting the bylaws and won. Merseyrail stated that he should have bought a ticket to Hamilton Square from the TVM, took it to the office, had it refunded, then bought the saveaway.

On another note I find Merseyrails in house revenue protection to be OK usually - still heavy handed and not much compassion - but its the minimal trained Carlisle rent-a-thugs that only seem to know what a daysaver and single is, and anything else gets a PF regardless of validity.

The issue with ToDs not being collected and people being Penalty fared is getting out of hand. The current generation of teens live by their phones, I'm a guard on TFW and I see plenty of young teens buy on an app regardless of how short their journey is. If you browse through Merseyrails X/Twitter feed its a very dull situation seeing a fair few posts from parents where kids have bought a ticket online then been PFd for not collecting. There are so many kids who have no intention of paying and will joy ride all day. Yet to penalise the good ones who have paid without realising the daft collection rule is just harsh. Explain by all means, but you can easily judge who clearly has no clue, and who's trying it on, apply some discretion.

Can Merseyrail RPIs print ToDs? I presume not? Surely it's better to educate rather than throw £100 penalties at people who assume buying a ticket online gives them a ticket. Using teens as an example again. 2 kids meeting in Liverpool. One lives in Northern land, one lives in Merseyrail land. The Northern kid buys online, issued a mobile ticket, job done. Kid 2 says great i'll try that too! But they're using Merseyrail.

I always advise passengers when I'm issuing ToDs onboard my trains to ensure they collect them at Chester before travelling on Merseyrail if the conductor doesn't come through in future, always quite shocked. A lot of them are also quite panicked that they've opened their app and found a code. I just explain Merseyrail are stuck in 1970.

As mobile ticketing continues to grow, this is only going to become a bigger problem. Merseyrail making up their own rules regarding validity of perfectly valid mobile tickets is even worse!!

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

This is the downside of super lengthy concessions/franchises. None of this would have even been thought possible back in 2002 when it was let out to Merseyrail Electrics.

Combine the extremely high subsidy that is required just to run the basics, proportionally tiny numbers of customers purchasing tickets beyond the Merseyrail network, along with some pretty fiery local politics and a heavily unionised workforce, and you're in the situation you have now. You also have a situation where the local authorities in the region were so corrupt or inept that central government had to take over administration of the largest council.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A friend of mine a while ago got a penalty fare for boarding a train at Overpool (unstaffed with one of their poor limited functionality TVMs) wanting to buy a Merseytravel All Zone saveaway ticket which the TVM doesn't sell despite being valid, so he boarded the train to buy it at Hamilton Square when he changed for a bus. He got a penalty fare onboard, appealed it quoting the bylaws and won. Merseyrail stated that he should have bought a ticket to Hamilton Square from the TVM, took it to the office, had it refunded, then bought the saveaway.

This doesn't surprise me given that some of their RPIs in my experience are so poorly trained that they don't know that Merseyrail only day tickets and Saveaways are not the same thing.

To be fair that did used to be part of some regulations or other (Penalty Fares regulations?) but as there hasn't always been a way of actually doing it I believe it was dropped a while back.

 

[ainsworth74]

Merseyrail stated that he should have bought a ticket to Hamilton Square from the TVM, took it to the office, had it refunded, then bought the saveaway.

I seem to recall way back in the dark ages that that was actually within the NRCoT (I actually think it was far enough back that they were still the Conditions of Carriage not Travel!) if you couldn't buy the ticket required you should buy a ticket to an interchange/destination and then exchange it for the required ticket. Which I guess makes this story make even more sense seeing as Merseyrail like to pretend that time stopped a decade or so ago.

 

[Skie]

Tried Waterloo Merseyside and Maghull North and neither does for me.

Which booking site/app are you using?

TPE but just checked our Evolvi system in the office and that offers them too.

Yes the messaging is very curious. I did remember a trial a little while back where some TOD booking emails were issued with a barcode and certain (I think) S+B TVMs could scan them to print the tickets without needing to do any typing. Not sure if this involved Transport for Wales.

I think I remember that. It’s also made me wonder how they would handle the CCST tickets that have a QR code on them too

 

[Bletchleyite]

TPE but just checked our Evolvi system in the office and that offers them too.

Ooh, LNER will do it to Waterloo Merseyside but not to Aughton Park. Trainline won't do it to any pairs I tried. The latter (and derivatives) uses a separate database, doesn't it?

If issued they are valid, but I'd not deliberately seek to "audit" that unless you enjoy hassle.

 

[island]

But if a passenger nevertheless is issued with one, tough Merseyrail, it's your problem. Get on with it.

And there is little to no evidence to suggest that e-tickets are rejected when they have been so issued.

The point that continues to be missed is that the issue is not with e-tickets but with ToD tickets that have not been collected.

 

[Haywain]

Surely it's better to educate rather than throw £100 penalties at people who assume buying a ticket online gives them a ticket.

That's what the posters are trying to do, albeit somewhat clumsily.

I always advise passengers when I'm issuing ToDs onboard my trains to ensure they collect them at Chester before travelling on Merseyrail if the conductor doesn't come through in future, always quite shocked.

I would hope that you are advising them to collect before travelling at all times, not just for Merseyrail.

 

[L401CJF]

I would hope that you are advising them to collect before travelling at all times, not just for Merseyrail.

Depends where they're boarding. If they're boarding at a remote request stop with no facilities, no. If a staffed station or one with TVM, yes.

The point that continues to be missed is that the issue is not with e-tickets but with ToD tickets that have not been collected.

But there have been multiple instances mentioned (some reported earlier in this thread) where people have been let through on a "just this once" basis, no guarantees they won't start penalising people for using them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Depends where they're boarding. If they're boarding at a remote request stop with no facilities, no. If a staffed station or one with TVM, yes.

I was of the understanding that unlike ticket purchase, ToDs must ALWAYS be collected before boarding, the only exception being if there should have been a facility to do so but was not, i.e. broken TVM and closed booking office.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I was of the understanding that unlike ticket purchase, ToDs must ALWAYS be collected before boarding, the only exception being if there should have been a facility to do so but was not, i.e. broken TVM and closed booking office.

Correct. Traincrew are supposed to only be fulfilling these on train (assuming the device is set up for fulfilling TOD) for situations like where the station is unexpectedly closed or the TVM is out of service. In the interests of customer service, some discretion is expected, but no customer should have the impression this is the normal practice.

It is a new ticket, Penalty Fare or possible prosecution for failing to collect a TOD ticket before boarding in normal circumstances.

If you select TOD and your station doesn't have TOD facilities, (and therefore is not in the list of places to collect your ticket from) it's the customer responsibility to get it printed before travelling.

 

[Kilopylae]

Comes nowhere Close to:View attachment 155592

I wonder if this counts as permission from an authorised person...

 

[bcarmicle]

Correct. Traincrew are supposed to only be fulfilling these on train (assuming the device is set up for fulfilling TOD) for situations like where the station is unexpectedly closed or the TVM is out of service. In the interests of customer service, some discretion is expected, but no customer should have the impression this is the normal practice.

It is a new ticket, Penalty Fare or possible prosecution for failing to collect a TOD ticket before boarding in normal circumstances.

If you select TOD and your station doesn't have TOD facilities, (and therefore is not in the list of places to collect your ticket from) it's the customer responsibility to get it printed before travelling.

If it’s a TOD ticket but the departure station doesn’t have TOD facilities, then is it possible for it to have ticket selling facilities? If not then surely a new ticket is the only valid course.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

If it’s a TOD ticket but the departure station doesn’t have TOD facilities, then is it possible for it to have ticket selling facilities? If not then surely a new ticket is the only valid course.

I don't follow what you mean, but the problem used to be people buying TOD tickets from a station with no advertised TOD facilities, but to get around that, the customer intentionally selected a station to collect their ticket from that does have them, knowing full well they won't make any effort to actually collect it there, hoping that a conductor will "let them off" and issue it on their ticket machine or let them collect it at their destination.

Unless a station is advertised as allowing ticket collection (and subject to the hours advertised for that service) - you can be issued a Penalty Fare or prosecuted. On Merseyrail, if you had a TOD and travelled from Bache, Capenhurst, Overpool or Little Sutton - ticket selling facilities exist, but TOD collection is not possible (nor it is even advertised) there. Therefore you must purchase a ticket before boarding from the TVM. Some customers ignore this and select that they will collect from Chester when booking, despite having no intention of collecting there.

 

[Kite159]

Doesn't even need to be anything from miles away. Crewe/Winsford/Hartford etc to Liverpool South Parkway is all issued to e-ticket.

Because you won't be travelling on Merseyrail as the validity runs out at South Parkway.

Try searching from those stations to Liverpool Lime Street and the eTicket option will likely disappear due to the validity on Merseyrail within central Liverpool (and also from South Parkway to Central Liverpool)

 

[yorkie]

On the train this evening. No distinction between E Tickets and TOD under 'buying your ticket'

View attachment 155621

This contains false information. How unprofessional of Merseyrail

(By the way, can you possibly edit your post to include a text quote, as per forum rules, to ensure the forum is accessible to all, including our blind members? Thanks!)

Very poor wording.

Additionally: Is it permitted to issue a PF to a customer with an off-peak ticket, travelling during so-called "Peak times"?

Nope; Merseyrail appear to enjoy spreading misinformation. They probably lack anyone within the company with the relevant knowledge and competency.

Not to mention an Off Peak ticket from Birkenhead to London would actually be valid on Merseyrail services before 09:29 anyway.

Do Merseyrail even understand the concept of a restriction code? They don't appear to have much intelligence at their HQ. They appear to be hopelessly out of their depth. The problems appear to come from the very top and are very deep-rooted.

The thing is Merseyrail make up a lot of rules as they go along ....

They certainly do.

They're a real Mickey Mouse operation, aren't they?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because you won't be travelling on Merseyrail as the validity runs out at South Parkway.

Try searching from those stations to Liverpool Lime Street and the eTicket option will likely disappear due to the validity on Merseyrail within central Liverpool (and also from South Parkway to Central Liverpool)

It won't. Tickets to Liverpool Stations from non Merseyrail origins are e ticketable.

 

[185]

Rumour has it the RDG's staff travel app (RSTL) is also offering e-tickets for a sample journey originating on Merseyrail.

Infact, there was no option of collect at station offered. It's a farce, and the gutless PTE should sack the contract operator.

 

[TUC]

The point that continues to be missed is that the issue is not with e-tickets but with ToD tickets that have not been collected.

If that is the case then why doesn't Merseyrail simply say so? A statement along the lines of 'If you have ordered a ticket online for 'collect at station' then this must be collected at a station with ticket issuing facilities prior to travel' would be sufficient.

 

[island]

If that is the case then why doesn't Merseyrail simply say so? A statement along the lines of 'If you have ordered a ticket online for 'collect at station' then this must be collected at a station with ticket issuing facilities prior to travel' would be sufficient.

They should. But their communications are hopeless.

 

[northwichcat]

It won't. Tickets to Liverpool Stations from non Merseyrail origins are e ticketable.

Northwich to Liverpool Stations Route:Chester displays as not available as an e-ticket on the booking engine I tried. Hartford to Liverpool Stations is available as an e-ticket. With the latter there's no reason why I can't jump off the London Northwestern service at South Parkway and get Merseyrail to Central or Moorfields. Or even remain on until Lime Street and then get Merseyrail across to James Street.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Northwich to Liverpool Stations Route:Chester displays as not available as an e-ticket on the booking engine I tried. Hartford to Liverpool Stations is available as an e-ticket. With the latter there's no reason why I can't jump off the London Northwestern service at South Parkway and get Merseyrail to Central or Moorfields. Or even remain on until Lime Street and then get Merseyrail across to James Street.

Whilst you could do that, the numbers actually doing it can probably be counted on one hand with fingers to spare. Merseyrail don't mind that. But you can't, for example, get e-tickets that are wholly Merseyrail.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

But you can't, for example, get e-tickets that are wholly Merseyrail.

Unless it's a Daysaver.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Unless it's a Daysaver.

There is some irony here that Merseyrail issue these unique, non-standard e-tickets (that aren't really e-tickets) and expect Transport for Wales at Chester to inspect them and manually allow customers through the gates, with no means of verifying they aren't counterfeit or fraudulent, whilst occasionally causing congestion, meanwhile being awkward with proper National Rail operators about the use of real e-tickets at their own stations for the same reasons.