Midland lines around Buxton: what's the history, and could they be better utilised in future?

[Teapot42]

A wander through Chee Dale this afternoon led me to wonder how the current arrangement of lines serving the various quarries came about. The quarry at Dove Holes seems a very short distance from the Manchester to Buxton line, yet trains need to go right down through Buxton to access it. What is the reason for this? Glancing at a map it would seem to make more sense to have kept that link open than the line down the Wye valley which has several bridges and embankments to maintain. It doesn't really interact with the line to Hindlow so that doesn't seem that obvious a reason to choose that route to keep open.

Was there some infrastructure (a tunnel or similar) that would have been more costly to maintain? Is the gradient more favourable for moving heavy freight trains? Or did someone decide that keeping that link open would make it too easy to re-open the line through to Bakewell and beyond?

The line from Buxton does pass quarries at Topley Pike and Ashwood Dale but it isn't obvious from the satellite image if they have facilities to load trains there. There don't appear to be any sidings.

Have any of the reopening plans involved this section, or are they all based on a reversal at Buxton?

 

[High Dyke]

Other more informed people may answer this better. However, the line through Chee Dale was the main line to/from Manchester for the Midland Railway. This is the route of the current freight only line from Chinley. Where the route now turns towards Buxton, it carried on towards Bakewell, Matlock and Derby. Topley Pike sidings are disused.

Plenty of information Here

Trains to / from the quarries on the LNWR route to Ashbourne (part closed) use the line through to Peak Forest due to route issues on the line between Buxton and Stockport. These services run-round in the sidings at Buxton in order to access the Midland line via Topley Pike.

 

[Spartacus]

A wander through Chee Dale this afternoon led me to wonder how the current arrangement of lines serving the various quarries came about. The quarry at Dove Holes seems a very short distance from the Manchester to Buxton line, yet trains need to go right down through Buxton to access it. What is the reason for this? Glancing at a map it would seem to make more sense to have kept that link open than the line down the Wye valley which has several bridges and embankments to maintain. It doesn't really interact with the line to Hindlow so that doesn't seem that obvious a reason to choose that route to keep open.

Was there some infrastructure (a tunnel or similar) that would have been more costly to maintain? Is the gradient more favourable for moving heavy freight trains? Or did someone decide that keeping that link open would make it too easy to re-open the line through to Bakewell and beyond?

The line from Buxton does pass quarries at Topley Pike and Ashwood Dale but it isn't obvious from the satellite image if they have facilities to load trains there. There don't appear to be any sidings.

Have any of the reopening plans involved this section, or are they all based on a reversal at Buxton?

Well unless you've a short train you can't easily get to the line through Dove Holes station via Buxton as you'd need to reverse twice, but the gradients are bad anyway plus you're having to contend with passenger services, there's a good gradient profile here: https://www.railwaydata.co.uk/linefiles/route/?ELR=BEJ

It's just dawned on me, are you looking at the old formation from Peak Forest to just north of Dove Holes? If so, that was park of the Peak Forest Tramway, a 4ft 2in horse drawn mineral railway that closed in 1920.

 

[mwmbwls]

Can I commend the following web sites:
http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/c/chaple_en_le_frith/index.shtml

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/buxton/

Buxton and its limestone was a fiercely contested area in the pre-grouping era. This lead to the notchy arrangements/reversals rquired today. The growth of concrete as a building material as opposed to brick and cement mortar construction has also had an impact on the nature and destinations of goods (nowadays freight) traffic.

 

[Teapot42]

Ah, right, I appear to have got mixed up. I thought the original line to Bakewell and beyond linked up with the Buxton line just north of Dove Holes. I'd not realised that Buxton was always just a branch and that the main line trains would always have run via Chinley. Apologies for my error!

But then, that begs another question - why that section of line between Buxton and Chee Dale was kept at all?

 

[Spartacus]

But then, that begs another question - why that section of line between Buxton and Chee Dale was kept at all?

Unless you want to tackle the gradients on the line via Dove Holes and be restricted to going via Stockport with everything you need the line up Chee Dale to link the Southern quarries with the Chinley route.

 

[Teapot42]

Unless you want to tackle the gradients on the line via Dove Holes and be restricted to going via Stockport with everything you need the line up Chee Dale to link the Southern quarries with the Chinley route.

OK, so does anything from Hindlow run up to Buxton then reverse? Thinking about it I don't recall seeing much if any freight up the Buxton line.

I've seen comment recently about one of these lines being disused - is that the Hindlow one?

 

[Spartacus]

OK, so does anything from Hindlow run up to Buxton then reverse? Thinking about it I don't recall seeing much if any freight up the Buxton line.

I've seen comment recently about one of these lines being disused - is that the Hindlow one?

Yes, everything reverses and goes via Peak Forest. I don't think anything's currently disused Network Rail side. Not sure of the status of all the quarries but things have been running to and from Hindlow today.

 

[Teapot42]

Yes, everything reverses and goes via Peak Forest. I don't think anything's currently disused Network Rail side. Not sure of the status of all the quarries but things have been running to and from Hindlow today.

Thanks, that's cleared a lot of the geography up in my mind.

Also makes me wonder, aside from the missing side of the triangle at Buxton whether it wouldn't be viable to run a faster direct passenger service that way...

 

[Dr Hoo]

The Hindlow line (also often mentioned in terms of Dowlow or Briggs) is currently busier than it has been for many years since the re-opening and reconnection of the Hillhead quarry. A lot of stone is going to HS2.

 

[dosxuk]

Have a watch of this video from Don Coffey -

- it covers the route used from Hindlow up to Manchester and beyond.

 

[Trainman40083]

There are four quarries on the former Buxton to Ashbourne line, Dowlow etc all producing limestone for the construction industry. All those trains have to go to Buxton to run round (sidings extended a few years ago)...Then those freight trains go down Ashwood Dale towards Millers Dale then turn up towards Great Rocks, Tunstead , Peak Forest and Chinley. Still a fair gradient, where many years ago, limestone trains had a banking engine to around Dove Holes. Of course, until fairly recently, locos for said limestone trains were serviced at Buxton shed; now refuelling takes place at Peak Forest. One other thought, should freight have followed the passenger route from Buxton, routing would have been interesting as it would have put them all north thru Stockport, whereas most head off through Altrincham, North Manchester or head south on the WCML, via Newton le Willows. Of course, Beeching did not suggest closure of the line between Matlock and Chinley.

 

[mwmbwls]

Yes, everything reverses and goes via Peak Forest. I don't think anything's currently disused Network Rail side. Not sure of the status of all the quarries but things have been running to and from Hindlow today.

Buxton Road Bridge replacement - Network Rail

We are carrying out essential work to secure the future of the High Peak’s railway link. What’s going on? Network Rail is investing £5.1m to replace a Grade II listed bridge which takes the railway over Buxton Road in Whaley Bridge, High Peak. The bridge, which was built in 1863, needs to be...

www.networkrail.co.uk

Recent bridge replacement bridge works at Whaley Bridge now allow empty aggregate trains to run via Chapel en le Frith and Dove Holes thereby avoiding reversal at the new sidings built over the old L&NWR Engine Shed (9D). A new quarry (a revival of an old quarry) has now started/restarted at Hindlow. Every penny counts in freight operations.

 

[Spartacus]

Buxton Road Bridge replacement - Network Rail

We are carrying out essential work to secure the future of the High Peak’s railway link. What’s going on? Network Rail is investing £5.1m to replace a Grade II listed bridge which takes the railway over Buxton Road in Whaley Bridge, High Peak. The bridge, which was built in 1863, needs to be...

www.networkrail.co.uk

Recent bridge replacement bridge works at Whaley Bridge now allow empty aggregate trains to run via Chapel en le Frith and Dove Holes thereby avoiding reversal at the new sidings built over the old L&NWR Engine Shed (9D). A new quarry (a revival of an old quarry) has now started/restarted at Hindlow. Every penny counts in freight operations.

Ah yeah, I see now, that's useful, a couple a day seem to regularly go that way too.

 

[5562]

Buxton Road Bridge replacement - Network Rail

We are carrying out essential work to secure the future of the High Peak’s railway link. What’s going on? Network Rail is investing £5.1m to replace a Grade II listed bridge which takes the railway over Buxton Road in Whaley Bridge, High Peak. The bridge, which was built in 1863, needs to be...

www.networkrail.co.uk

Recent bridge replacement bridge works at Whaley Bridge now allow empty aggregate trains to run via Chapel en le Frith and Dove Holes thereby avoiding reversal at the new sidings built over the old L&NWR Engine Shed (9D). A new quarry (a revival of an old quarry) has now started/restarted at Hindlow. Every penny counts in freight operations.

DB Cargo have run an empty aggregates train from Ashburys to Dowlow for some years either early afternoon or evening. Paths are in RTT and were in use prior to the bridge at Whaley Bridge being replaced.
As I understand it it isn't possible for loaded trains to go from Dowlow direct to the Whaley line without involving a reversal into Buxton Station. Apart from involving such a convoluted manoeuvre there would then be the added difficulty of getting the heavy load started up the severe gradient (1in58?) up to Bibbington Summit.
Finally, the volume of limestone carried from the quarries south of Buxton has increased significantly in recent years, especially with the recently provided sidings to serve Hillhead Quarry.

 

[thenorthern]

A wander through Chee Dale this afternoon led me to wonder how the current arrangement of lines serving the various quarries came about. The quarry at Dove Holes seems a very short distance from the Manchester to Buxton line, yet trains need to go right down through Buxton to access it. What is the reason for this? Glancing at a map it would seem to make more sense to have kept that link open than the line down the Wye valley which has several bridges and embankments to maintain. It doesn't really interact with the line to Hindlow so that doesn't seem that obvious a reason to choose that route to keep open.

Was there some infrastructure (a tunnel or similar) that would have been more costly to maintain? Is the gradient more favourable for moving heavy freight trains? Or did someone decide that keeping that link open would make it too easy to re-open the line through to Bakewell and beyond?

The line from Buxton does pass quarries at Topley Pike and Ashwood Dale but it isn't obvious from the satellite image if they have facilities to load trains there. There don't appear to be any sidings.

Have any of the reopening plans involved this section, or are they all based on a reversal at Buxton?

The Dove Holes Tunnel was notorious for being a problem tunnel if I remember correctly.

Reopening wise I remember back in 2003 when Derbyshire County Council were looking at reopening the Matlock to Buxton section there were plans to run services either from Matlock to Buxton and then carry on along the existing route or Matlock to Chinley via the Dove Holes Tunnel.

Had the Matlock to Buxton route been chosen the plans were to close the existing Buxton station and build a new one which would be a through station. I remember someone from the project at the time commenting that the present Buxton station was in a "poorly designed" location.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

By strange coincidence, having first seen this thread this afternoon we then set off to drive up the A6 to Buxton. As we approached Dove Holes I glanced to my right and saw we were running parallel with:

Realtime Trains | 6H59 1348 Ashburys S.S. to Dowlow Briggs Sdgs | 08/05/2024

Real-time train running information for 6H59 1348 departure from Ashburys S.S. to Dowlow Briggs Sdgs on 08/05/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

We roughly kept pace with it through Dove Holes and towards Buxton and as we parked in the car park under the LNW viaduct this train rumbled over on its way to Briggs Sidings.

 

[Teapot42]

The Dove Holes Tunnel was notorious for being a problem tunnel if I remember correctly.

Reopening wise I remember back in 2003 when Derbyshire County Council were looking at reopening the Matlock to Buxton section there were plans to run services either from Matlock to Buxton and then carry on along the existing route or Matlock to Chinley via the Dove Holes Tunnel.

Had the Matlock to Buxton route been chosen the plans were to close the existing Buxton station and build a new one which would be a through station. I remember someone from the project at the time commenting that the present Buxton station was in a "poorly designed" location.

Looking on Google satellite view it seems like the formation of the line that originally ran in to Buxton has been built on. The bridge is still there over Charles Street, but I can't see any way to link with the existing station, nor space to build an alternative which could serve both lines.

A through station makes sense operationally, but there is no obvious location that isn't less convenient than the existing one. Indeed, the Hindlow line actually offers locations for a station that would give better access to a wider area of Buxton so you'd almost wonder if reopening that with a terminus at Harpur Hill wouldn't offer a better service to many.

As for which route to open, I think a lot depends on your intentions. Getting people out of their cars who are heading from Manchester to Bakewell and that part of the Peak District might be easier via Chinley as the journey times will be lower and the Buxton line is already busy. Really, however, it could do with both.

 

[Trainman40083]

Looking on Google satellite view it seems like the formation of the line that originally ran in to Buxton has been built on. The bridge is still there over Charles Street, but I can't see any way to link with the existing station, nor space to build an alternative which could serve both lines.

A through station makes sense operationally, but there is no obvious location that isn't less convenient than the existing one. Indeed, the Hindlow line actually offers locations for a station that would give better access to a wider area of Buxton so you'd almost wonder if reopening that with a terminus at Harpur Hill wouldn't offer a better service to many.

As for which route to open, I think a lot depends on your intentions. Getting people out of their cars who are heading from Manchester to Bakewell and that part of the Peak District might be easier via Chinley as the journey times will be lower and the Buxton line is already busy. Really, however, it could do with both.

back in the 1960s there were two very similar stations at Buxton side by side. When Peak Rail got started they funded a bridge over a road (about where Aldi is now). As time went on, they moved their operation to the Rowsley area and I think the station yard land got used by Buxton Spring Water. Now if you did open the line via Chinley, opening the line towards Buxton would be fairly easy, as most of the track is still there.

 

[Oxfordblues]

Worth bearing in mind that the LNWR route from Stockport to Buxton was proposed for closure in 1963 as it was deemed to be "unremunerative" (whatever that means!) and there were adequate bus services in the area. The quarry traffic would be unaffected.

 

[thenorthern]

Looking on Google satellite view it seems like the formation of the line that originally ran in to Buxton has been built on. The bridge is still there over Charles Street, but I can't see any way to link with the existing station, nor space to build an alternative which could serve both lines.

A through station makes sense operationally, but there is no obvious location that isn't less convenient than the existing one. Indeed, the Hindlow line actually offers locations for a station that would give better access to a wider area of Buxton so you'd almost wonder if reopening that with a terminus at Harpur Hill wouldn't offer a better service to many.

As for which route to open, I think a lot depends on your intentions. Getting people out of their cars who are heading from Manchester to Bakewell and that part of the Peak District might be easier via Chinley as the journey times will be lower and the Buxton line is already busy. Really, however, it could do with both.

Looking at the old plans the preferred location for a new Buxton station if the link to Matlock had opened was on the curve between the Charles Street bridge and the Lightwood Road bridge.

 

[Teapot42]

back in the 1960s there were two very similar stations at Buxton side by side. When Peak Rail got started they funded a bridge over a road (about where Aldi is now). As time went on, they moved their operation to the Rowsley area and I think the station yard land got used by Buxton Spring Water. Now if you did open the line via Chinley, opening the line towards Buxton would be fairly easy, as most of the track is still there.

Where Aldi was - I drove past on Tuesday and was very surprised to find them dismantling the building with signs up saying the store was closed. It doesn't seem to have been open all that long.

I had seen there were two stations side by side. Did they never consider merging them under BR, or was it not worth the effort?

Isn't the whole line from Chinley to Buxton still there, just not the final link to the station?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

back in the 1960s there were two very similar stations at Buxton side by side. When Peak Rail got started they funded a bridge over a road (about where Aldi is now). As time went on, they moved their operation to the Rowsley area and I think the station yard land got used by Buxton Spring Water. Now if you did open the line via Chinley, opening the line towards Buxton would be fairly easy, as most of the track is still there.

The Midland station site was also partly used to drive through the horrid inner 'by-pass' which wrecks the character of the town.

 

[Teapot42]

Looking at the old plans the preferred location for a new Buxton station if the link to Matlock had opened was on the curve between the Charles Street bridge and the Lightwood Road bridge.

Yes, that did look like the most obvious place. Not sure how you'd get good pedestrian access from there though. It would have the benefit of being able to serve the Hindlow line as well. I wonder if Higher Buxton station could be reopened and a terminus built near B&Q to give better service provision?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Where Aldi was - I drove past on Tuesday and was very surprised to find them dismantling the building with signs up saying the store was closed. It doesn't seem to have been open all that long.

The now permanently closed Aldi store on Station Road, Buxton was built in 1999, so was approaching being ~ 25 years old. They've now built a more modern, replacement store over at Harpur Hill. The old site next to the station will be re-built as a drive through McDonalds 'Restaurant'.

 

[Teapot42]

The now permanently closed Aldi store on Station Road, Buxton was built in 1999, so was approaching being ~ 25 years old. They've now built a more modern, replacement store over at Harpur Hill. The old site next to the station will be re-built as a drive through McDonalds 'Restaurant'.

Really? I recall it opening but didn't realise it was that long ago. I guess that was when Aldi were just starting to ramp up in the UK, now they are more established the shops they need are different. We've had similar with Lidl, one closed and another larger one opened nearby. I always wondered how Buxton supported an Aldi but I guess these days their range is bigger, the quality better than when they first opened and people are keener on price than much else.

 

[thenorthern]

Yes, that did look like the most obvious place. Not sure how you'd get good pedestrian access from there though. It would have the benefit of being able to serve the Hindlow line as well. I wonder if Higher Buxton station could be reopened and a terminus built near B&Q to give better service provision?

At the time there was the Buxton water factory next to the site which could have made it difficult.

 

[calum38]

We should think about using the Hindlow line better for moving freight and possibly reopening Higher Buxton station to improve passenger service.