Misleading CIS regarding number of train carriages

[northwichcat]

Northern still haven't resolved the issue with rear carriages on 4 car sets being locked out-of-use for the entire journey.

Instead of the CIS' all saying the train has 4 carriages. Altrincham now has a new lengthy message for Chester bound services informing passengers for Mouldsworth to join the front 2 carriages only, and for passengers for a few stations to join the front 3 carriages only. There's no indication the rear carriage will be not available, even for passengers alighting at the likes of Knutsford, Lostock Gralam, Northwich and Chester. However, the guards continue to lock out of the rear carriage for the entire length of the journey. For Manchester bound passengers the implication is still that all 4 carriages will be available to passengers. And why shouldn't they be? Altrincham, Navigation Road, Stockport and Piccadilly could probably all take 8 carriages!

Why is it so hard for Northern to find a solution that works and to clearly communicate it to passengers?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The 'Mid Cheshire Rail Users Association' recently commented about this continuing sub-optimal practice. If the issue is to do with the short platform length at Mouldsworth station, then why can't the fourth coach be unlocked (this on Manchester-bound trains) upon arrival at the next station along the line, i.e. Delamere station?

 

[jonnyfan]

The issue is that Class 156s are diagrammed and appear far more frequently on the mid Cheshire line, which are longer than Class 150s. So when a Class 156 works in multiple, then both platforms at Mouldsworth, Delamere, Cuddington and Greenbank, and one platform at Hale and Northwich cannot accommodate that formation. There is no time in the schedule to unlock the rear carriage en route. A double 156 formation means you have issues at Navigation Road, both Hale platforms, Ashley and Plumley. Far easier to have a consistent working arrangement for all multiple worked services.
Personally, all double sets should be 2 x 156 units, and then they will all have a walk through connection to help access to toilets and spread loadings.

 

[northwichcat]

The issue is that Class 156s are diagrammed and appear far more frequently on the mid Cheshire line, which are longer than Class 150s.

Yesterday all doubled up sets were 150s. Northern did manage to have a 150/2 out on it's own and paired a 150/1 with a 150/2.

So when a Class 156 works in multiple, then both platforms at Mouldsworth, Delamere, Cuddington and Greenbank, and one platform at Hale and Northwich cannot accommodate that formation.

If the driver stops at the stop board correctly at Northwich then 4 car 156s fit on both platforms at both Lostock Gralam and Northwich. The use of double 156s was allowed for when the humps were installed, as indicated by the 4 car 156 stopping boards. Northwich could accommodate something longer than a 4 car 156 if the stop boards were relocated.

4 car 156s have fitted fully on the platform at Greenbank before. In the Chester direction it does require the train to be close to the signal and the doors to be very close to the sloping sections at the end of the platforms. When the St Annes to Greenbank service operated years ago that was pretty much always a pair of 156s and after a slow approach by the driver and a careful check by the guard all doors were released almost every time.

There is no time in the schedule to unlock the rear carriage en route.

Really? Take this train:

Realtime Trains | 2D52 1710 Manchester Piccadilly to Chester | 24/10/2023

Real-time train running information for 2D52 1710 departure from Manchester Piccadilly to Chester on 24/10/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

3 minutes stopped at Navigation Road, 2 minutes stopped at Northwich, 2 minutes stopped at Cuddington. If 1 minute is enough for Altrincham and Knutsford passengers to alight and board on a peak time service, that's 4 minutes spare.

A double 156 formation means you have issues at Navigation Road, both Hale platforms, Ashley and Plumley.

Why's Navigation Road a issue? Has someone put the stopping board 3 metres closer to the level crossing then it needs to be or something?

Far easier to have a consistent working arrangement for all multiple worked services.

But it's not consistent. There's a mix of 2 and 4 car workings, so passengers (especially those at weekends) get confused by rear carriages being locked out-of-use, especially when it's a Manchester bound train at Northwich, Knutsford or Altrincham when it means a lot of people having to walk down the platform after the train has stopped.

The 'Mid Cheshire Rail Users Association' recently commented about this continuing sub-optimal practice. If the issue is to do with the short platform length at Mouldsworth station, then why can't the fourth coach be unlocked (this on Manchester-bound trains) upon arrival at the next station along the line, i.e. Delamere station?

I've not been to Southport on one of the 769s but I have seen CIS' saying about front 3 carriages for one of the stations between Wigan and Southport. Does that work in practice, or do Northern lock the rear carriage out-of-use once the train has departed Wigan?

 

[AMD]

I've not been to Southport on one of the 769s but I have seen CIS' saying about front 3 carriages for one of the stations between Wigan and Southport. Does that work in practice, or do Northern lock the rear carriage out-of-use once the train has departed Wigan?

It's Appley Bridge that's announced, and no nothing is done as all booked traction with 4 carriages actually fits there - it's a database error feeding into the CIS system.

 

[louis97]

Really? Take this train:

Realtime Trains | 2D52 1710 Manchester Piccadilly to Chester | 24/10/2023

Real-time train running information for 2D52 1710 departure from Manchester Piccadilly to Chester on 24/10/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

3 minutes stopped at Navigation Road, 2 minutes stopped at Northwich, 2 minutes stopped at Cuddington. If 1 minute is enough for Altrincham and Knutsford passengers to alight and board on a peak time service, that's 4 minutes spare.

I would take the GPS reports with a pinch of salt, a 2 minute dwell reported isn't necessarily a full 2 minutes, for example the Northwich dwell on that train could be 180459 to 180601, therefore actually only 2 seconds over a 1 minute dwell. (Although actually at Northwich the early arrival is likely due to the mandated engineering allowance) Do some data recording on the ground and then see how many minutes (or seconds) are spare, although I would not hold your breath that the running times will be changed (especially a reduction).

 

[jonnyfan]

Yesterday all doubled up sets were 150s. Northern did manage to have a 150/2 out on it's own and paired a 150/1 with a 150/2.



If the driver stops at the stop board correctly at Northwich then 4 car 156s fit on both platforms at both Lostock Gralam and Northwich. The use of double 156s was allowed for when the humps were installed, as indicated by the 4 car 156 stopping boards. Northwich could accommodate something longer than a 4 car 156 if the stop boards were relocated.

4 car 156s have fitted fully on the platform at Greenbank before. In the Chester direction it does require the train to be close to the signal and the doors to be very close to the sloping sections at the end of the platforms. When the St Annes to Greenbank service operated years ago that was pretty much always a pair of 156s and after a slow approach by the driver and a careful check by the guard all doors were released almost every time.



Really? Take this train:

Realtime Trains | 2D52 1710 Manchester Piccadilly to Chester | 24/10/2023

Real-time train running information for 2D52 1710 departure from Manchester Piccadilly to Chester on 24/10/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

3 minutes stopped at Navigation Road, 2 minutes stopped at Northwich, 2 minutes stopped at Cuddington. If 1 minute is enough for Altrincham and Knutsford passengers to alight and board on a peak time service, that's 4 minutes spare.



Why's Navigation Road a issue? Has someone put the stopping board 3 metres closer to the level crossing then it needs to be or something?



But it's not consistent. There's a mix of 2 and 4 car workings, so passengers (especially those at weekends) get confused by rear carriages being locked out-of-use, especially when it's a Manchester bound train at Northwich, Knutsford or Altrincham when it means a lot of people having to walk down the platform after the train has stopped.

2 x 156 units are far longer than both platforms at Greenbank, a 150 & 156 don't fit either.
Navigation Road can be an issue if the signal is at red toward Chester (very common), as the train will not be able to use the full length of the platform.

The only times in the schedule are in the wrong locations, it just wouldn't work. I'm not spending several minutes moving and disrupting passengers to lock a carriage out half way through the journey going to Chester. Delays will abound. Passengers are rushing to board at Piccadilly and just pile in on the rear coach.
Far, far easier for punctuality to keep the rear carriage consistently locked out. Otherwise I guarantee there will be complaints about getting moved and delays etc etc. The PIS screens should absolutely say that only the front 3 carriages are available for use.

It's really an imperfect solution, a lovely 3 carriage DMU is what is needed...bring on the new trains, even Class 195s!

 

[Warrior2852]

The Nottingham-Leeds trains seem to sometimes have the opposite issue, of the CIS nearly always saying it's a 2 coach train, but sometimes a 4 coach turns up instead and you end up with people doing double takes to make sure that this is their actual train when it's longer than anticipated.

 

[northwichcat]

I would take the GPS reports with a pinch of salt, a 2 minute dwell reported isn't necessarily a full 2 minutes, for example the Northwich dwell on that train could be 180459 to 180601, therefore actually only 2 seconds over a 1 minute dwell. (Although actually at Northwich the early arrival is likely due to the mandated engineering allowance) Do some data recording on the ground and then see how many minutes (or seconds) are spare, although I would not hold your breath that the running times will be changed (especially a reduction).

There are normally some stations where the train arrives early if it doesn't get delayed anywhere. Some Chester bound trains feel like they remain at Navigation Road for an eternity - it can actually be around 2 minutes with very few people boarding or alighting. I'm not sure that's the best place for trains to arrive early, given it's single track and there's a level crossing just after the station.

Passengers are rushing to board at Piccadilly and just pile in on the rear coach.

The platform allocations are partly to blame there. It's normal for platform 8 to have a 3 car 323 in front of the Chester train until 3-4 minutes before it's due to depart. So passengers told it's the rear train only for Chester and don't always realise if it's a pair of Sprinters that both will usually go to Chester. On one occasion when I was there the crew did split a pair of 150s after the Crewe train had left. I don't know how often that happens.

It's really an imperfect solution, a lovely 3 carriage DMU is what is needed...bring on the new trains, even Class 195s!

4 car trains with a carriage locked out-of-use can get rammed when there's events on, like Chester Races, sport at Old Trafford, Delamere Forest gigs, Tatton Park events, Christmas markets/lights switch ons etc.

3 car 195s would likely still be rammed on occasions. However, I think a mix of 2, 3 and 4 car 195s could be an option, given that have selective door operation.

The real solution is to get the additional Greenbank to Manchester services in and to lengthen platforms.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The issue is that Class 156s are diagrammed and appear far more frequently on the mid Cheshire line, which are longer than Class 150s. So when a Class 156 works in multiple, then both platforms at Mouldsworth, Delamere, Cuddington and Greenbank, and one platform at Hale and Northwich cannot accommodate that formation. There is no time in the schedule to unlock the rear carriage en route. A double 156 formation means you have issues at Navigation Road, both Hale platforms, Ashley and Plumley. Far easier to have a consistent working arrangement for all multiple worked services.

Thank you for the explanation. Does this essentially mean that Northern are needlessly hauling fresh air around whenever they operate such units on the Mid Cheshire Line?

 

[Kite159]

It's really an imperfect solution, a lovely 3 carriage DMU is what is needed...bring on the new trains, even Class 195s

Cue Northern forming more 3 coach 150/0s hybrids for use on the Chester line

 

[Danfilm007]

Thank you for the explanation. Does this essentially mean that Northern are needlessly hauling fresh air around whenever they operate such units on the Mid Cheshire Line?

Yep! Great for the peaks...

 

[northwichcat]

Cue Northern forming more 3 coach 150/0s hybrids for use on the Chester line

I don't think they are going to. This problem seems to have been in place for over a year, it seems to be something Northern/Network Rail have created that didn't use to exist and they don't seem bothered about finding a solution. Northern seem to like the flexibility which allows them to split a 4 car Sprinters at Piccadilly when a unit fails, or gets out-of-position. Creating 3 car 150 sets would remove that flexibility.

 

[Starmill]

I don't think they are going to. This problem seems to have been in place for over a year, it seems to be something Northern/Network Rail have created that didn't use to exist and they don't seem bothered about finding a solution. Northern seem to like the flexibility which allows them to split a 4 car Sprinters at Piccadilly when a unit fails, or gets out-of-position. Creating 3 car 150 sets would remove that flexibility.

Unfortunately this kind of policy for policy sake change is very common. For example locking out the rear unit has been "banned" for services to Headbolt Lane internally, even though doing so from Wigan Wallgate is really not a problem at all for capacity. Therefore the trains have to be worked 'long train short platform' which inhibits the information system and causes the doors to be opened and closed without sounding the alarm. Yes the guard is physically present to open and close the door but they don't always actually check that someone isn't leaning on the door before releasing it from the outside, nor do they always have time to make the correct replacement automatic announcements, nor do they have the ability to display the correct messages on the screens using the trainfx. In addition Northern don't advertise which doors need to be used in advance, and that's different on different types of train and different orientations. It also means if person who needs to travel in the wheelchair space on some types of unit is leaving the train from the Wigan direction at Orrell, Upholland or Rainford, the guard can't always open the correct door. Presumably control would make alternative travel arrangements for such a passenger, or they may authorise use of an emergency door release handle. All of the above wouldn't be a problem if the rear unit were just locked out, as the guard would then be able to release the doors normally while the ones off the platform would remain locked. Finally working 'long train short platform' on four car sprinter trains realistically isn't achievable within the half-minute dwell times provided, certainly not by procedure anyway. No doubt something similar is going to end up happening at Bromley Cross where one door is sometimes on a lower section of the platform.

I don't think they are going to. This problem seems to have been in place for over a year, it seems to be something Northern/Network Rail have created that didn't use to exist and they don't seem bothered about finding a solution. Northern seem to like the flexibility which allows them to split a 4 car Sprinters at Piccadilly when a unit fails, or gets out-of-position. Creating 3 car 150 sets would remove that flexibility.

At some stations the usable platform length has recently been reduced because of the installation of new gates on the platform end. The whole train fits fine at Horwich Parkway for example but the gate is in the way on one side now so only the front five coaches can be used there. Generally these changes don't seem to be being reflected on the network rail data either, suggesting a mistake in specifying these extra gates which are being installed. Who knows, though.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Northern still haven't resolved the issue with rear carriages on 4 car sets being locked out-of-use for the entire journey.

Instead of the CIS' all saying the train has 4 carriages. Altrincham now has a new lengthy message for Chester bound services informing passengers for Mouldsworth to join the front 2 carriages only, and for passengers for a few stations to join the front 3 carriages only. There's no indication the rear carriage will be not available, even for passengers alighting at the likes of Knutsford, Lostock Gralam, Northwich and Chester. However, the guards continue to lock out of the rear carriage for the entire length of the journey. For Manchester bound passengers the implication is still that all 4 carriages will be available to passengers. And why shouldn't they be? Altrincham, Navigation Road, Stockport and Piccadilly could probably all take 8 carriages!

Why is it so hard for Northern to find a solution that works and to clearly communicate it to passengers?

Similar things happens for any stops after Wigan towards Headbolt Lane, the back 2 of 4 are locked out either at Wigan Wallgate or Pemberton, announcements and displays call Upholland and Rainford short, not mentioning Headbolt Lane (and sometimes Pemberton's) lack of access through the locked out 2 cars.
I've seen some trains come in from that line packed in the front 2 but empty in the back 2 as they arrive into Wallgate, at least it pretty much guarantees people seats.

 

[Purple Train]

At least it isn't as bad as the PIS getting the number of carriages on the actual train wrong - when I found myself changing at Bryn while on a Greater Manchester Wayfarer, the PIS was under the impression that the 319 was two carriages long; and when I started that journey (on the Yorkshire Coast), the PIS had the opposite problem - 3 coaches advertised, 2-coach 155!

 

[northwichcat]

At least it isn't as bad as the PIS getting the number of carriages on the actual train wrong - when I found myself changing at Bryn while on a Greater Manchester Wayfarer, the PIS was under the impression that the 319 was two carriages long; and when I started that journey (on the Yorkshire Coast), the PIS had the opposite problem - 3 coaches advertised, 2-coach 155!

I'd say that's not as bad. It's obvious to the passengers there's more or less carriages than advertised. It's worse when they wait to board a carriage after the train has stopped, only for guard to then shout they have to walk down to the next carriage, potentially delaying the train. Before CIS' were introduced everyone guessed the train length based on what it usually was, not necessarily what it actually was.

 

[Purple Train]

I'd say that's not as bad. It's obvious to the passengers there's more or less carriages than advertised. It's worse when they wait to board a carriage after the train has stopped, only for guard to then shout they have to walk down to the next carriage, potentially delaying the train. Before CIS' were introduced everyone guessed the train length based on what it usually was, not necessarily what it actually was.

On the TPE Saltburn line, they're usually formed of six coaches, but, often when I've seen it, the back three are locked out! One coach locked out won't cause all that many delays in the grand scheme of things, inconvenient though it is.

 

[northwichcat]

On the TPE Saltburn line, they're usually formed of six coaches, but, often when I've seen it, the back three are locked out! One coach locked out won't cause all that many delays in the grand scheme of things, inconvenient though it is.

Just a quick glance at the timings for tomorrow. TPE on the Saltburn branch is uncomparable to Mid-Cheshire. In the soutbound direction Saltburn's the origin station and there's a 9 minute dwell time at Redcar! For 4 cars on Chester to Manchester service the locked out-of-use carriage ends up stopping close to the platform entrances at Greenbank, Northwich, Knutsford, Hale and Altrincham - each have a 1 minute dwell time, the guards aren't always quick at releasing the doors and at peak times you can have enough passengers waiting at Knutsford to fill 2 carriages worth of seats. 60 seconds to release the doors, getting 40-50 people to walk down the platform, getting everyone on the train, closing the doors and dispatching the train is a challenge for even a super efficient train crew!

 

[Krokodil]

Don't 156s have butterflies on the outside? TfW use the butterflies on their 158s at short platforms (where there are more passengers than can quickly board/alight through the local door) and Scotrail do the same with their 156s on the West Highland Line.

Why is it so hard for Northern to find a solution that works

If the 175s go to Northern hopefully that will mean a cascade of 195s to the Mid-Cheshire.

It's really an imperfect solution, a lovely 3 carriage DMU is what is needed...bring on the new trains, even Class 195s

I'm sure that there are some off-lease 153s you could have.

 

[northwichcat]

If the 175s go to Northern hopefully that will mean a cascade of 195s to the Mid-Cheshire.

The Mid Cheshire is actually a line the 175s are cleared for. Not sure about the CAF trains, I understand they've done test runs (for both Northern and TfW) but I don't know if they've ever run a passenger service for TfW that way.

 

[Starmill]

I'm sure that there are some off-lease 153s you could have.

Probably none in anything like a serviceable condition currently, alas.

 

[Krokodil]

The Mid Cheshire is actually a line the 175s are cleared for.

Yes, but they're really not suitable for stopping services. They would be better used on Class 1 work.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes, but they're really not suitable for stopping services. They would be better used on Class 1 work.

I don't think you can really argue that Northern can't take on certain rolling stock because their not designed for 'stopping services'. Their fleet already contains loads of trains not designed for stopping services, which are being used on stopping services. So the question should be whether they are more suitable for stopping services than the Sprinters designed for regional work.

3 car 175s would be better all round than either 2 car 156s or 4 car 156s on the Mid Cheshire. The doors are wider and all carriages would be usable at every station. The better performance could also be an advantage of the fast running section of the route - for much of the route between Navigation Road and Manchester the Sprinters are running at their maximum speed.

The Mid Cheshire was also supposed to have had a second semi-fast hourly service introduced.

 

[Krokodil]

I don't think you can really argue that Northern can't take on certain rolling stock because their not designed for 'stopping services'.

Well I didn't argue that, did I?

175s would be better used on the "Northern Connect" work such as the Calder Valley to displace 195s onto the stoppers. Yes, it will require route clearance work to achieve this.

 

[northwichcat]

Well I didn't argue that, did I?

No but you didn't make any reference to how you could put them on more suitable routes. You just implied they were unsuitable when they're actually more suitable than some of the units being used currently.

However, I also wasn't arguing 195s are less suitable for Mid Cheshire. I understand they have selective door operation, meaning a pair of 2 car sets could be used without having to resort to locking carriages out-of-use, which would provide an advantage over 175s.

175s would be better used on the "Northern Connect" work such as the Calder Valley to displace 195s onto the stoppers. Yes, it will require route clearance work to achieve this.

Whether you like it or not the Calder Valley services are a combination of local services joined up to create one long through service. Chester to Leeds is all stops between Chester and Warrington. It skips one station between Warrington and Manchester (Eccles), then all stops from Manchester to Leeds via Bradford. That's a total of 19 stations served in 2 hours 20 - roughly one station call every 7.4 minutes.

With trains calling at a through platform in Manchester, on the way to somewhere else, it's argued they need wide double doors. This is so they can cater for a lot of people getting on and off, without the train having to spend too long sat at the platform.

There is already a separate thread for discussing where the 175s could be used in the future: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-175-future-speculation.218095/page-54

 

[louis97]

Whether you like it or not the Calder Valley services are a combination of local services joined up to create one long through service. Chester to Leeds is all stops between Chester and Warrington. It skips one station between Warrington and Manchester (Eccles), then all stops from Manchester to Leeds via Bradford. That's a total of 19 stations served in 2 hours 20 - roughly one station call every 7.4 minutes.

Have you done any research on this? Chester to Leeds trains off peak typically run fast between Chester and Warrington, and its two stops skipped between Warrington and Manchester (Patricroft and Eccles). From Manchester to Leeds they don't stop at all stations either.

 

[northwichcat]

Have you done any research on this? Chester to Leeds trains off peak typically run fast between Chester and Warrington, and its two stops skipped between Warrington and Manchester (Patricroft and Eccles). From Manchester to Leeds they don't stop at all stations either.

I clicked on a couple of services and got calling patterns like this:

Realtime Trains | 1E54 0821 Chester to Leeds | 20/11/2023

Real-time train running information for 1E54 0821 departure from Chester to Leeds on 20/11/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

On checking I accept they don't all call at Helsby, Frodsham and Runcorn East but even for a middle of the day service the 'pass' points between Manchester and Leeds aren't station names and the longest gap between stations is around 10 minutes. Although I do know there's a station at Smithy Bridge which isn't displayed.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P55137/2023-11-20/detailed

It's still a slow way of getting between Chester and Bradford, nevermind Chester and Leeds.

 

[louis97]

On checking I accept they don't all call at Helsby, Frodsham and Runcorn East but even for a middle of the day service the 'pass' points between Manchester and Leeds aren't station names and the longest gap between stations is around 10 minutes. Although I do know there's a station at Smithy Bridge which isn't displayed.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P55137/2023-11-20/detailed

It's still a slow way of getting between Chester and Bradford, nevermind Chester and Leeds.

A train isn't timed at every station it passes through. RTT fills in the stations that are not timing points in a service on the day.

 

[Krokodil]

Whether you like it or not the Calder Valley services are a combination of local services joined up to create one long through service. Chester to Leeds is all stops between Chester and Warrington.

Only during the peak. The line speeds are also far faster.

It skips one station between Warrington and Manchester (Eccles), then all stops from Manchester to Leeds via Bradford. That's a total of 19 stations served in 2 hours 20 - roughly one station call every 7.4 minutes.

Compared with the Mid Cheshire's stop every 5.6 minutes.

With trains calling at a through platform in Manchester, on the way to somewhere else, it's argued they need wide double doors. This is so they can cater for a lot of people getting on and off, without the train having to spend too long sat at the platform.

Wide doors is exactly why 195s are more suitable for a line with frequent stops. Have you seen how generous the dwell times are in Victoria for the Chester trains? Oxford Road it ain't.