Most loco changes on UK train. Current and historic

[Ken H]

There is this thread in the international section

Passenger Service Featuring the Most Locomotives on its’ journey?

I’ve previously travelled on a Sicily-Mainland Italy service which had an electric locomotive from Siracusa-Messina, then was shunted on to the ferry by a pair of diesel shunters, taken off by a single diesel shunter and then carried on Northwards with another electric locomotive. This gave 5...

www.railforums.co.uk

So i wondered about the UK

I will start with a 3. York - Stockport - crewe - Shrewsbury. 2 changes. I rode it late 70's from Leeds to Crewe.

I am sure someone will know better!!

 

[Western 52]

Back in the 1980s the former 1S19 sleeper from Bristol to Glasgow and Edinburgh would have one type 4 diesel to Birmingham, an electric to Glasgow with another diesel to work the Carstairs to Edinburgh portion. With 15 or 16 coaches it often had the bankers up Lickey (2 × 37s). Five locos in all.

 

[hexagon789]

Do through coaches count or must it be a singular point-to-point main train.

I.e. - would you count the Aberdeen-Penzance through coach (run as part of 4 different train services to its final destination each way) of the 1920s and 1930s or would you only count that when it was resurrected as a through train in its own right in the mid-80s?

Some through coaches could easily incur six engine changes or more if they were detached/attached to more than a few different trains; through services would be more limited but I think I've seen one with 5 changes if I can remember.

 

[d9009alycidon]

Did a Glasgow to Paddington back in the day, 47 Glasgow to Carlisle via Kilmarnock, 87 Carlisle to Birmingham, 40 added for a diversion drag from Preston to Crewe via Manchester, 50 from Birmingham to Paddington.

 

[Peterthegreat]

The Leeds portion of the Newcastle to Poole
One loco Leeds yo Sheffield
08 shunts on to the back of the train from Newcastle
Type 4 Sheffield to Birmingham
47 Birmingham to Reading
33 Reading to Poole

 

[Rescars]

How about pre-grouping Anglo-Scottish expresses? Several companies, double-heading, possible banking, as well as loco changes en route in the era before big tenders and watertroughs? Someone will know how many locos and changes were needed to get from, for example, King's Cross to Edinburgh by GNR, NER, NBR - it feels like quite a lot.

 

[Ken H]

Never considered portion working. Adds another dimension.

Going back pre WW1 the locos must have needed changing often. Or were locos coaled while attached to a teain?

 

[Bevan Price]

Typically, for many years:
1st loco, Liverpool - Preston
Class 08, shunt Liverpool portion onto rear of Manchester portion.
3rd loco (from Manchester portion) - Carstairs (detach Edinburgh portion)
4th loco, Carstairs - Edinburgh

In the steam era, there may also have been a loco change at Carlisle.
Sometimes it was the Liverpool portion loco that ran through to/from Scotland, and the Manchester portion had its own loco south of Preston.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Typically, for many years:
1st loco, Liverpool - Preston
Class 08, shunt Liverpool portion onto rear of Manchester portion.
3rd loco (from Manchester portion) - Carstairs (detach Edinburgh portion)
4th loco, Carstairs - Edinburgh

In the steam era, there may also have been a loco change at Carlisle.
Sometimes it was the Liverpool portion loco that ran through to/from Scotland, and the Manchester portion had its own loco south of Preston.

In my day a Jinty shunt plus a 4-4-0 2P pilot from Preston on peak days. Also I have seen photos of an L&Y 0-6-0 pilot from Manchester to Bolton - maybe days when the Lpool and Man sections ran as heavy separate trains from Preston.

 

[Cowley]

Back in the 1980s the former 1S19 sleeper from Bristol to Glasgow and Edinburgh would have one type 4 diesel to Birmingham, an electric to Glasgow with another diesel to work the Carstairs to Edinburgh portion. With 15 or 16 coaches it often had the bankers up Lickey (2 × 37s). Five locos in all.

I did the 1S19 from Exeter to Edinburgh in 1988 (I’ve definitely banged on about it before on here) and it was 47517 to Birmingham including being banked by a pair of 37s up the Lickey (as you mentioned), an 86 to Carstairs, followed by 47535 on the portion to Edinburgh. So 5 locos involved in one journey, which I’ve never managed to beat.

I think by the time the extra coaches were added at Temple Meads the train was up to 16 coaches.

 

[Ash Bridge]

There is this thread in the international section

Passenger Service Featuring the Most Locomotives on its’ journey?

I’ve previously travelled on a Sicily-Mainland Italy service which had an electric locomotive from Siracusa-Messina, then was shunted on to the ferry by a pair of diesel shunters, taken off by a single diesel shunter and then carried on Northwards with another electric locomotive. This gave 5...

www.railforums.co.uk

So i wondered about the UK

I will start with a 3. York - Stockport - crewe - Shrewsbury. 2 changes. I rode it late 70's from Leeds to Crewe.

I am sure someone will know better!!

I also used this TPO train (1M41) not certain if it was 1973 or 74 but we left York at 21:50 hauled by a 45. On arrival at Leeds City more mail/parcel vans were added and a 31 joined the 45 as far as Stalybridge, the 45 continued solo from here to Stockport (via Ashton-under- Lyne) where it was detached and replaced by an AC electric for the leg to Crewe. Not certain what took the train forward to Shrewsbury or Aberystwyth but likely a 24 or 25 so at least four locos involved back then.

 

[Cowley]

I also used this TPO train (1M41) not certain if it was 1973 or 74 but we left York at 21:50 hauled by a 45. On arrival at Leeds City more mail/parcel vans were added and a 31 joined the 45 as far as Stalybridge, the 45 continued solo from here to Stockport (via Ashton-under- Lyne) where it was detached and replaced by an AC electric for the leg to Crewe. Not certain what took the train forward to Shrewsbury or Aberystwyth but likely a 24 or 25 so at least four locos involved back then.

We’ve said it before, but oh for a time machine!

 

[D6130]

Someone will know how many locos and changes were needed to get from, for example, King's Cross to Edinburgh by GNR, NER, NBR - it feels like quite a lot.

IIRC, for much of the pre-grouping era, the North Eastern Railway and North British Railway had an agreement whereby NER locos and crews ran through from Newcastle to Edinburgh and back; whereas NBR locos and crews worked through from Hawick to Newcastle and back via Riccarton Junction and Hexham. Therefore a typical King's Cross to Edinburgh train would probably have had a Great Northern loco from Kings Cross to Grantham, a second one from Grantham to either Doncaster or York, an NER loco from either Doncaster or York to Newcastle and finally a second one from there to Edinburgh....making four in total. Of course at busy times such as bank holiday weekends, strengthened services may have required double-heading, so that would potentially entail up to eight different locos. Plus the overnight through trains from London to Aberdeen may well have employed an additional four!

 

[CW2]

For a while when York was maintaining the Deltics, 1M41 would be a Deltic from York to Leeds (fresh off maintenance), and Leeds would turn out another loco to work to Stockport and back,usually a 45 or 47, but occasionally a 31 or 37 or 40. (It was a Leeds crew Leeds - Stockport and return, so anything they could drive was fair game). Occasionally the Deltic would work through to Stockport and return as far as Leeds, being taken off there to work a morning Leeds - Kings Cross. Again, the loco working Leeds - York could be anything - including No Heat class 40s in the depths of winter!

One other rarity often overlooked was that the York - Shrewsbury was scheduled to detach a Manchester Victoria portion at Stalybridge, which then formed part of a Manchester - Leeds (or was it Newcastle?) newspaper train.
The forward loco from Stalybridge was usually a 25 or 45, but one one occasion I saw it worked by an 08!

 

[alistairlees]

I once ‘enjoyed’ seven different duffs on the Aberdeen to Bristol sleeper. 1986 I think.

 

[Ash Bridge]

We’ve said it before, but oh for a time machine!

Yes, absolutely!

 

[Magdalia]

How about pre-grouping Anglo-Scottish expresses? Several companies, double-heading, possible banking, as well as loco changes en route in the era before big tenders and watertroughs? Someone will know how many locos and changes were needed to get from, for example, King's Cross to Edinburgh by GNR, NER, NBR - it feels like quite a lot.

IIRC, for much of the pre-grouping era, the North Eastern Railway and North British Railway had an agreement whereby NER locos and crews ran through from Newcastle to Edinburgh and back; whereas NBR locos and crews worked through from Hawick to Newcastle and back via Riccarton Junction and Hexham. Therefore a typical King's Cross to Edinburgh train would probably have had a Great Northern loco from Kings Cross to Grantham, a second one from Grantham to either Doncaster or York, an NER loco from either Doncaster or York to Newcastle and finally a second one from there to Edinburgh....making four in total.

When did the Kings Cross-Fort William sleeper start running?

I suspect there was a time when it changed locos at Grantham, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh and Glasgow.

 

[billh]

I'm not sure of the details but how many locos for the Harwich boat train around 1960? To include electric over Woodhead, steam to Manchester Central and steam on to Liverpool? Would there be more than qne loco, Harwich to Sheffield?

 

[Rescars]

Does anyone know how many locos would have been used between Paddington and Penzance when the Royal Albert Bridge first opened. I assume this would have involved not just the GWR (with a loco change at Swindon for the refreshment stop?), but also the Bristol and Exeter, the South Devon, the Cornwall and the West Cornwall Railways. And all broad gauge - oh for that time machine!

 

[D6130]

When did the Kings Cross-Fort William sleeper start running?

I've been skimming through John Thomas's book 'The West Highland Railway', but there is no conclusive evidence for the exact date. Overnight through carriages were running between Kings Cross and Fort William at the outbreak of the first world war in 1914, but it is not clear whether or not they were sleeping cars. Thomas wrote that a brand new East Coast Joint Stock corridor coach was running on the West Highland Line in 1895 - the year after the line opened - but it's not clear whether it ran through from/to London or just Edinburgh.

 

[snowball]

A variant of #8 immediately after electrification, a train with Liverpool-Glasgow, Manchester-Glasgow and Manchester-Edinburgh portions.

2 diesels bring the portions to Preston
Electric put on
I don't think a diesel shunter was used - I think either the Liverpool diesel or the electric was used to shunt the Liverpool onto the front of the Manchester
Electric takes train to Glasgow
Diesel put on to rearmost coaches at Carstairs.
4 locos in all
Edinburgh coaches at the rear both ways IIRC.

 

[Taunton]

I'm not sure of the details but how many locos for the Harwich boat train around 1960? To include electric over Woodhead, steam to Manchester Central and steam on to Liverpool? Would there be more than qne loco, Harwich to Sheffield?

I vaguely recall this was worked by two March-based B17s, one Harwich to March, the other March to Sheffield.

 

[Magdalia]

I'm not sure of the details but how many locos for the Harwich boat train around 1960? To include electric over Woodhead, steam to Manchester Central and steam on to Liverpool? Would there be more than qne loco, Harwich to Sheffield?

I vaguely recall this was worked by two March-based B17s, one Harwich to March, the other March to Sheffield.

I was wondering about the North Country Continental too. Through running to Liverpool finished in 1962, by which time the train was already diesel hauled through from Harwich to Sheffield Victoria. The last steam traction was Britannias which also worked through from Harwich to Sheffield Victoria. There was also a period when B17s worked through from Harwich to Sheffield Victoria with Ipswich and Darnall locos on alternate days and lodging turns for the traincrew, but I can't remember when that was.

At the northern end, three locos west of Sheffield Victoria would only have applied during the period between electrification (1954?) and the end of through working to Liverpool in 1962. It is possible that, during the early part of that date range, if there was also a loco change at March then that would give 4 loco changes and 5 locos in total.

The details about loco changes at March are an issue for early diesel history. Almost exactly 65 years ago, in January 1958, a new Brush Type 2 worked the North Country Continental to Sheffield Victoria, but there are conflicting reports about whether the working was through from Harwich or only from March. The sources are also conflicting on the loco identity, with one saying D5500 and the other D5501!

The Leeds portion of the Newcastle to Poole
One loco Leeds yo Sheffield
08 shunts on to the back of the train from Newcastle
Type 4 Sheffield to Birmingham
47 Birmingham to Reading
33 Reading to Poole

This was the descendant of the Newcastle-Bournemouth train via the Great Central, which had loco changes at York, Sheffield Victoria, Leicester Central and Banbury until 1962. That gives 4 changes and 5 locos in total without needing to include a shunter.

 

[47296lastduff]

In Sept 1977 I had 5 locos on the Stirling to Brockenhurst motorail (without a car). 47053 to Mossend, then 82003 to Coventry, then 86205 to Willesden WL Jct, then 08535 to Willesden SW Sidings, finally 33023. All were scores for haulage except 86205.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

When did the Kings Cross-Fort William sleeper start running?

I suspect there was a time when it changed locos at Grantham, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh and Glasgow.

Plus a banker out of Queen St , and quite possibly double headed on the West Highland.

 

[xotGD]

I once had three locos on a service train in the 14 and a bit miles from Newcastle to Durham:

6th July 1985

47207 Newcastle - Ouston Junction 1E28

Here, the duff went pop. We received assistance from the rear:

31188 Ouston Junction - Durham Loop 1E28

A replacement loco was found, but a bit of a disappointment:

47238 Durham Loop - Darlo 1E28

 

[Rescars]

In Sept 1977 I had 5 locos on the Stirling to Brockenhurst motorail (without a car). 47053 to Mossend, then 82003 to Coventry, then 86205 to Willesden WL Jct, then 08535 to Willesden SW Sidings, finally 33023. All were scores for haulage except 86205.

Being unfamiliar with the layout at Brockenhurst, would another loco have been required to shunt the carflats into the unloading dock? IIRC back in the day there was 08 at Olympia for this duty.

 

[The exile]

North of Edinburgh - West Country trains could easily be:
Loco 1: into Edinburgh
Loco 2: Edinburgh - Carstairs
Loco 3: Carstairs - Birmingham
Loco 4: Birmingham- Gloucester
Loco 5: Gloucester onwards

It was a nightmare trying to work out whether to book “facing” or “back”!

 

[Gloster]

Being unfamiliar with the layout at Brockenhurst, would another loco have been required to shunt the carflats into the unloading dock? IIRC back in the day there was 08 at Olympia for this duty.

I think it was train loco in both directions.

 

[delt1c]

What about the Euston sleeper Inverness to Euston. Could have 3 26’s or 24’s for the Highland main line the. A Type 4 for the Northern part of WC then an AC electric for Southern end of the WCML