Motorway Driving - too many idiots

[Welly]

I must admit that I tend to use lane 2 on the M25 (and keep in it), as so often lane 1 becomes the exit lane for a junction.

I've done that as well! I hate that road.

 

[krus_aragon]

Mirror, signal, manoeuvre. A pretty basic term that everyone learns on day one. Too basic for you probably.

So why not write that rather than invent an acronym?

A good question, but I don't think  sprunt is to blame for inventing "MSM". Learner drivers have been taught it for decades, and even the UK Government uses it: https://readytopass.campaign.gov.uk/driving-skills/observation-signalling-and-planning/

I'm pretty sure it's an older use for the acronym than "mainstream media'.

 

[aavm]

Lady in her 80s. Driving to visit her husband in hospital with terminal cancer. Taking all his favourite foods hoping he'll take a bite of one of them. Had to cross an M25 junction into the outside lane of a short but fast dual carriageway. Too scared to change lane or go past 40. Tailgated. Beeped. Made a fraught journey worse but she had to go. Maybe think before punishing drivers who offend your sense of righteousness. It could be their need is greater than yours

 

[LowLevel]

Lady in her 80s. Driving to visit her husband in hospital with terminal cancer. Taking all his favourite foods hoping he'll take a bite of one of them. Had to cross an M25 junction into the outside lane of a short but fast dual carriageway. Too scared to change lane or go past 40. Tailgated. Beeped. Made a fraught journey worse but she had to go. Maybe think before punishing drivers who offend your sense of righteousness. It could be their need is greater than yours

Reminds me of the glorious occasion I was doing 65 in lane 2 of a dual carriageway and an elderly lady trundling along at 30 with her right hand mirror folded in decided to pull out from behind a tractor she'd hitherto been following quite happily in front of me. Luckily for both of us I braked and there was nobody behind me. Her licence should have been revoked for driving without mirrors let alone anything else.

The important journeys of hazardous drivers who lack confidence do not warrant a risk to my life regardless of their reason for travelling.

If the level of terror is that high take a taxi.

 

[jon81uk]

Lady in her 80s. Driving to visit her husband in hospital with terminal cancer. Taking all his favourite foods hoping he'll take a bite of one of them. Had to cross an M25 junction into the outside lane of a short but fast dual carriageway. Too scared to change lane or go past 40. Tailgated. Beeped. Made a fraught journey worse but she had to go. Maybe think before punishing drivers who offend your sense of righteousness. It could be their need is greater than yours

Driving at 40mph on a clear dual carriageway is dangerous, I would argue that behaviour just as bad as too fast.

 

[Enthusiast]

Driving at 40mph on a clear dual carriageway is dangerous, I would argue that behaviour just as bad as too fast.

I completely agree. And all of us are likely to encounter someone like that from time to time. If you're travelling at 70mph at the time the consequences are overwhelmingly likely to be less serious than if you are travelling at 100mph. As I said in an earlier post, it's about a balance between convenience and safety.

 

[Bald Rick]

Lady in her 80s. Driving to visit her husband in hospital with terminal cancer. Taking all his favourite foods hoping he'll take a bite of one of them. Had to cross an M25 junction into the outside lane of a short but fast dual carriageway. Too scared to change lane or go past 40. Tailgated. Beeped. Made a fraught journey worse but she had to go. Maybe think before punishing drivers who offend your sense of righteousness. It could be their need is greater than yours

Whilst sympathising greatly, if someone is not confident about driving on a dual carriageway to the extent they are scared of changing lane or driving faster than 40moh then frankly they should not be driving on it, and they should make other transport arrangements instead, such as a taxi.

This is a difficult conversation I have had to have with my parents.

 

[Forty29]

The speed limit for large HGVs is 60mph (on motorways and dual carriageways). However, most HGVs have speed limiters fitted restricting them to 90kmh (56mph). This was a result of an EU directive stemming from the 1990s.

Many seem to do 70 though

 

[Enthusiast]

Whilst sympathising greatly, if someone is not confident about driving on a dual carriageway to the extent they are scared of changing lane or driving faster than 40moh then frankly they should not be driving on it, and they should make other transport arrangements instead, such as a taxi.

I completely agree. But as much as we'd like the roads to be as we'd prefer them, they are as they are and drivers like that are on the roads. That's why it's important that measures to mitigate the risks they pose must be in place. Those advocating an increase or even the abandonment of some speed limits seem only to concentrate on their own driving capabilities and the improvement in vehicle engineering since the limits were imposed. They seem to neglect the hazards presented by people less capable than themselves and simply saying "they shouldn't be on the road" does not mean they won't be.

 

[route101]

More often, than not, they seem to be drivers of private hire vehicles tootling along at 45 to 50 m.p.h. in lane two of three of an (otherwise) not that busy motorway.

Focused on the sat nav or phone quite often if in middle lane. I was on a motorway at 3 am with no traffic at all and there was a small yaris in the middle lane doing 50 mph.

I find it's the Mercedes Sprinters that are the hardest to keep up with.

Quite often see them in the outside lane tailgating or big white vans generally, always in a rush. Also watch out for dodgy sprinters from RO.

 

[bramling]

Lady in her 80s. Driving to visit her husband in hospital with terminal cancer. Taking all his favourite foods hoping he'll take a bite of one of them. Had to cross an M25 junction into the outside lane of a short but fast dual carriageway. Too scared to change lane or go past 40. Tailgated. Beeped. Made a fraught journey worse but she had to go. Maybe think before punishing drivers who offend your sense of righteousness. It could be their need is greater than yours

This is all well and good until safety becomes an issue, then I’m sorry but no need is great if it endangers the safety of others.

However in the majority of cases we’re talking more about ignorance. If someone isn’t particularly confident at driving then it’s quite possible to drive in such a way that manages this. Not pulling out in to the path of others for starters. The attitude of many seems to be a rather belligerent “I’m going to do my 52 mph, to hell with the trouble this causes especially to lorries, and I’m going to weave around come what may, and who gives a stuff about pulling out into the path of someone else”.

 

[Sussex Ben]

From the A23 to the M26 however I found there was very little using lane 1 until the point where the anticlockwise M25 turns off itself.

On this stretch of the M25 I can understand it as the surface quality of lane 1 is so poor that last time I drove that way I ended up moving into lane 2 to ensure my car wasn’t shaken to bits. Assume the constant pounding of lane 1 by HGVs and inadequate maintenance is the key issue here.

 

[bramling]

Whilst sympathising greatly, if someone is not confident about driving on a dual carriageway to the extent they are scared of changing lane or driving faster than 40moh then frankly they should not be driving on it, and they should make other transport arrangements instead, such as a taxi.

This is a difficult conversation I have had to have with my parents.

I expect this will be an increasing problem as the baby booms get older. I can envisage many being reluctant to give up driving given how that generation is rather oriented around car travel.

Of course, political parties won’t want to do anything about it for fear of upsetting the precious pensioner vote.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The gist of the above seems to be that as some people lack driving ability, everyone has to be debased to the same low level - which also seems to then mean that those with lower ability don’t improve.

In the above situation it’s a driving test fail to cause another motorist to have to suddenly change course or slow down, so essentially granny in her Metro shouldn’t be there if she can’t change lanes without screwing up. Of if her judgement is that poor then maybe at least she shouldn’t be attempting to change lanes in the first place?

There is a balance to be struck between convenience and speed for the most able of us and that need people have to be mobile.

Perhaps we could improve the roads be encouraging older people to give up the licence by heavily subsidising public transport for them. Further more taxis to take them to the car culture created destinations

They do tend to make for broadly entertaining, if somewhat polarised, threads, though!

Indeed.

Lady in her 80s. Driving to visit her husband in hospital with terminal cancer. Taking all his favourite foods hoping he'll take a bite of one of them. Had to cross an M25 junction into the outside lane of a short but fast dual carriageway. Too scared to change lane or go past 40. Tailgated. Beeped. Made a fraught journey worse but she had to go. Maybe think before punishing drivers who offend your sense of righteousness. It could be their need is greater than yours

This is the nub of it. We have developed a society that relies on cars.

I completely agree. And all of us are likely to encounter someone like that from time to time. If you're travelling at 70mph at the time the consequences are overwhelmingly likely to be less serious than if you are travelling at 100mph. As I said in an earlier post, it's about a balance between convenience and safety.

Yes. I am sure 70mph is fast enough - we have to consider the abilities of all drivers. Furthermore if the speed limit was increased to 100mph there would still be those just going "a wee bit" over - as in 30mph so their unofficial 100mph becomes 130mph !.

Whilst sympathising greatly, if someone is not confident about driving on a dual carriageway to the extent they are scared of changing lane or driving faster than 40moh then frankly they should not be driving on it, and they should make other transport arrangements instead, such as a taxi.

This is a difficult conversation I have had to have with my parents.

And I think younger drivers should ponder whether they should give older drivers a lift.

I completely agree. But as much as we'd like the roads to be as we'd prefer them, they are as they are and drivers like that are on the roads. That's why it's important that measures to mitigate the risks they pose must be in place. Those advocating an increase or even the abandonment of some speed limits seem only to concentrate on their own driving capabilities and the improvement in vehicle engineering since the limits were imposed. They seem to neglect the hazards presented by people less capable than themselves and simply saying "they shouldn't be on the road" does not mean they won't be.

Yes - Cars have got better but the drivers are still the same range of abilities.

---

From my days in the insurance world I was always told that drivers under the age of 25 are the biggest risk because they have accidents involving higher speeds so more damage is done to property, vehicles and people. Furthermore old drivers were a negligible risk because they were the cause of fewer accidents and those they did have resulted in minor damage due to the slow speed.

 

[ExRes]

It never ceases to amaze and annoy me that so many people line up to have a go at 'older' drivers and their abilities, maybe some of you should have a look out of your windscreens at both the 'young' and 'middle age' lunatics that infest the roads, I can't say that I've seen many oldies driving along using their phones, slopping back coffee and generally ignoring every road rule that's ever been made, and don't get me onto the subject of 'professional' lorry and van drivers some of who are the most dangerous maniacs you'll ever come across, the bottom line is that there are far too many total idiots of every generation out there waiting to kill and maim every day

 

[75A]

Of course, political parties won’t want to do anything about it for fear of upsetting the precious pensioner vote.

The've upset us in so many other ways, that they're going to get their cumuppance anyway.

 

[RJ]

As a bus driver who’s limited to 62mph, one thing a small but noticeable number of car drivers do is sit beside or just behind the bus in the middle lane for miles on end. It stops me from being able to use the middle lane for going around slower moving traffic. And when I slow down to encourage them to pass, they also slow down so lanes 1 and 2 end up both going down to 40mph or less sometimes.

I think the people who behave like this are either distracted or scared of passing large vehicles. When I’m in a car I do 70 in the middle lane and want to get past large vehicles as quickly as possible.

 

[bramling]

It never ceases to amaze and annoy me that so many people line up to have a go at 'older' drivers and their abilities, maybe some of you should have a look out of your windscreens at both the 'young' and 'middle age' lunatics that infest the roads, I can't say that I've seen many oldies driving along using their phones, slopping back coffee and generally ignoring every road rule that's ever been made, and don't get me onto the subject of 'professional' lorry and van drivers some of who are the most dangerous maniacs you'll ever come across, the bottom line is that there are far too many total idiots of every generation out there waiting to kill and maim every day

If one reads back, it wasn’t older drivers that were singled out. However it was suggested that age might be a mitigating factor, which some have rejected on safety grounds. I don’t think that’s lining up against older drivers.

Better enforcement of standards is needed all round, and in particular getting away from the situation where most law enforcement on roads focuses on speed limits, or money-spinners like box junction enforcement.

 

[Bald Rick]

No doubt in my mind thatthe standard of driving has declined in the last 10-15 years or so, and in my mind (based on no evidence whatsoever) that corresponds almost perfectly with the advent of smart phones.

However, I will say that even the standards of driving I see on the south end of the M1 are an order of magnitude better than the standard of driving on any major road in the US.

 

[John Webb]

My late father, born 1913, learnt to drive between WW1 and WW2; I'm not certain exactly when. But post-WW2 he steadfastly refused to get a car for the family on the grounds there were too many people driving about than when he'd learnt to drive!

I tend to avoid motorways as well, particularly the M1 which I find excessively busy and very unattractive to drive along even when less busy (I started driving in 1971.)

 

[Dave W]

No doubt in my mind thatthe standard of driving has declined in the last 10-15 years or so, and in my mind (based on no evidence whatsoever) that corresponds almost perfectly with the advent of smart phones.

However, I will say that even the standards of driving I see on the south end of the M1 are an order of magnitude better than the standard of driving on any major road in the US.

My first experience of driving in the States involved a truck seemingly the size of a shopping mall up my jacksy flashing and honking in lane 2 as I attempted my first overtake. I was doing 75mph.

 

[bramling]

No doubt in my mind thatthe standard of driving has declined in the last 10-15 years or so, and in my mind (based on no evidence whatsoever) that corresponds almost perfectly with the advent of smart phones.

I’d like to believe that this isn’t the reason. I’ve always put it down to the availability of cheap credit making cars more available than once might have been the case.

However, I will say that even the standards of driving I see on the south end of the M1 are an order of magnitude better than the standard of driving on any major road in the US.

That’s worrying!

 

[Dr_Paul]

Having been a driver for half a century, I don't think that driving manners have become worse, rather I think that there is a lot more traffic on the roads these days, more motors, more lorries, and despite the road-building that's occurred, the roads are for the most part more crowded.

One thing that hasn't changed is the predilection of lorry drivers to overtake another lorry on a motorway and taking several miles to do it. When two lorries are effectively running in parallel at around 50mph, all other traffic is confined to the fast lane, which then slows down to the slowest motor in it. Newsthump once ran an article on a prize being given to a lorry driver who took from junction 3 to junction 9 on the M1 to overtake another lorry, and the satire seemed only a slight exaggeration.

Poor lane discipline is nothing new. I recall some 30 years back driving on a very empty M25 and a bloke was going at about 50mph in the middle lane. I was in the inside lane at 70mph, and to avoid undertaking him went over to the fast lane to pass him, and then returned to the inside lane. At that speed, on a clear road with no junctions, he should have been driving on the inside lane. When driving at the limit on a three-lane road or motorway with moderate traffic, I tend to keep in the middle lane, as there will usually be someone going slower along the way. If the traffic is light, I'll keep to the inside lane except to overtake slower vehicles, and I'll move to the middle lane when approaching incoming slip-road junctions just in case there is someone joining who hasn't reached a good speed.

One thing which I think has changed is that van drivers don't drive like the clappers these days, but just potter along. I always found it very tempting when driving a van to belt it somewhat, especially in Transits, which were really nippy. Perhaps van are different these days; I've not driven one in many years.

As for comments in previous posts about 'old drivers', I don't think my driving style has changed since when I passed my test at 18 in 1973.

 

[75A]

As for comments in previous posts about 'old drivers', I don't think my driving style has changed since when I passed my test at 18 in 1973.

I've certainly got slower as my years advance (passed in 77), gone are the days of me going well over 100, tend to max @ 80 going uphill & 90 going down the other side on the M6.
Over here I rarely reach 50 & that's on the only Dual Carriageway with 25 miles of home.
Interesting driving down to Dublin last week when the road speed limits changed from MPH to KPH, I didn't have a clue so just kept up with the flow. Next time I'll put a' Post It' on the steering wheel with the conversion on.
I do know that 202 Kph is around 120 Mph as that's what I was nicked for in Germany (when it was still West)

 

[Meerkat]

Very surprised at the comment that there isn’t much real speeding now. that doesn’t match my experience on the M40 and M6 recently, though I think there has been an increase in slow drivers (fuel/battery costs/conservation??).
The lane hogging is appalling. Really annoying is that they do it relative to the central reservation - so sit in lane 3 out of 4 (which at least makes undertaking in lane 1 safer when it’s quiet). I started looking who was doing it, expecting it to be dominated by the stereotypes - grumpy old men “I’m doing 70 so no one should need to overtake“ and the scared, no mirror use, death grip on steering wheel, group of women.
But I was surprised that it seemed to be dominated by a wide middle age group of ordinary Asian men in ‘this is the only lane I use’ mode. One even came out an on slip straight into lane 3 of 4 on an empty motorway. It’s anecdata, but I have kept watching and its consistent, and have no idea why.
Not really sure what the plod can do. Only the real morons are going to do it long enough in front of a marked car (though even a few widely publicised prosecutions would help), and doing a meaningful patrol would involve a lot of speeding in unmarked cars, which they don’t like to do (decent motor doing 65 in lane 1 is a big unmarked police giveaway!). Use dashcam footage?
TBF I rarely use lane 1 on the M25 and the busiest motorways because they are so rutted by lorries, making my car tramline and giving me paranoia about my steering having gone wrong!

 

[L401CJF]

For me my biggest issue is following somebody on the slip road who is trying to join 70mph traffic at 40mph rather than match the speed of the traffic they're joining.

Second pet hate is when I'm trying to overtake a slower vehicle (when I'm doing 70mph) and you've got people tailgating because you're not going fast enough. I don't speed normally, i put the cruise on 70 and leave it at that however occasionally I'll slip up to 75/80 briefly to get out the way due to the above, but you can do 80mph and still be the slowest on the road. It's mad!

My 3rd pet hate is when you catch up to somebody doing 60 or so, so you go for an overtake at 70, but they don't want to be overtaken so speed up to 75 and you end up merging behind them. Bizzare.

 

[156421]

For me my biggest issue is following somebody on the slip road who is trying to join 70mph traffic at 40mph rather than match the speed of the traffic they're joining.

Second pet hate is when I'm trying to overtake a slower vehicle (when I'm doing 70mph) and you've got people tailgating because you're not going fast enough. I don't speed normally, i put the cruise on 70 and leave it at that however occasionally I'll slip up to 75/80 briefly to get out the way due to the above, but you can do 80mph and still be the slowest on the road. It's mad!

My 3rd pet hate is when you catch up to somebody doing 60 or so, so you go for an overtake at 70, but they don't want to be overtaken so speed up to 75 and you end up merging behind them. Bizzare.

The first one is actually very dangerous, particularly when they don't even aim for a gap, instead continuing into the main carriageway regardless of whether this is going to result into crashing into a load of trucks.

 

[Meerkat]

Second pet hate is when I'm trying to overtake a slower vehicle (when I'm doing 70mph) and you've got people tailgating because you're not going fast enough. I don't speed normally, i put the cruise on 70 and leave it at that however occasionally I'll slip up to 75/80 briefly to get out the way due to the above,

Whereas I hate people who don't blip past. Its something I particularly dont like about average speed cameras. You can't really blip past lorries and spend ages in the danger area, and those overtaking you take ages about it.
If someone takes their time overtaking there is the risk you forget they are in your blindspot, and both of you have restricted space if anything goes wrong.
I almost always blip past through blindspots, particularly when overtaking lorries (scary in German roadworks where the narrow lanes are NARROW, and oncoming traffic in the opposing narrow lane feels like its mirrors are in your lane!)

My 3rd pet hate is when you catch up to somebody doing 60 or so, so you go for an overtake at 70, but they don't want to be overtaken so speed up to 75 and you end up merging behind them. Bizzare.

I think thats often a reaction to speed drift from lack of concentration (particularly when chatting). Seeing you start to overtake makes them check their speed and realise they have started to dawdle, with the reaction being to accelerate to their intended cruising speed.

 

[Bikeman78]

In what way is the previous poster’s driving arrogant? Whilst the safety aspects of undertaking are certainly debatable, he is well within his rights to be irritated at having to cross from lane 1 to 3 and back to pass someone who is incorrectly positioned.

And if it was a two-lane road then what is he supposed to do? Sit there all day and effectively form a roadblock?

I have been on motorways where lane one is moving faster than the other lanes. Especially the M25 where people are reluctant to use lane one because it spilts of at a lot of junctions. Am a obliged to drive more slowly than the traffic in lane two?

I personally find doing 1-3-1 quite enjoyable. Best done in the most perfect way possible with correct spacing and indication to be as smugly sanctimonious as possible.

Sometimes even wakes them up!

Worth noting though that if traffic is moving in queues staying in lane is the correct approach.

I remember Andy Parsons talking about middle lane hogging. His suggested approach was to overtake in lane three, go back to lane one, slow down, let the lane two person overtake and then keep repeating the process, going in circles around them. Made me laugh.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Mirror, signal, manoeuvre. A pretty basic term that everyone learns on day one. Too basic for you probably.

Then on day two, they learn it should really be Mirror, Blind Spot, Signal, Mirror, Blind Spot, Manoeuvre. That doesn't roll off the tongue so well though!